Teez

Been using the search function all morning with a number of different strings and it hasn't come up with anything that answered my question, so my apologies in advance if this has been posted before.
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Alright, I've been having a minor dilemma with picking appropriate trinkets for different mobs. With BC, there's actually a solid selection of trinket to choose from now, particularily for tanking - you're no longer stuck with the Styleen's/Ony Blood Talisman/LGG selection (and, if you were so lucky, a Glyph of Deflection).

+stam vs +block rating vs +block value vs +defense, multiple On Equip:'s vs On Use: etc. - the selection is huge. On my Warrior I'm carrying around ~16-18 trinkets at any given time, some of which are more DPS oriented, but most are straight up tanking items. In most cases, the choice is pretty clear. If threat is an issue, I'll often times side with any combination of my Drake Fang Talisman (+hit,AP for steadier threat gen from white damage and devastates) / Icon of Unyielding Courage (+hit,-AC for steady threat gen and a guarantee that my specials will land, plus a little threat boosting On Use: if needed) / Gnomeregan Auto-Blocker (+BV for snap aggro via shield slam, and some mitigation to boot).

The cases in which the choice becomes less clear are various too though - Adamantine Figurine vs. Styleen's Impeding Scarab vs. Moroes' Lucky Pocket Watch vs. Gnomeregan Auto-Blocker vs. Figurine of the Colossus. On certain fights I'll much rather go with the static qualities offered by Styleen's + Moroes', on others (such as Prince) I'll go with as much On Use: as I can stack, for the enraged phase, etc. etc.

Question is though - for large scale bosses that hit like a truck - what's the "smartest" or most efficient combination? Both in terms of spike damage prevention and healing efficiency.

Moroes' trinket is absolutely amazing for overall avoidance - but I feel rage starved at times due to avoidance streaks.
The autoblocker makes for amazing shield slams, and I just love seeing huge blocks, but it pales if Gruul is sitting at 15 growths (well, pre-nerf anyway) and hitting you like a truck, while it's a beauty in the earlier stages of the fight.
Styleen's has *still* got absolutely amazing static stats and for that alone, I doubt I'll ever get rid of it - but the fact that I can't go into "overpowered" mode by using a cooldown on it makes it seem a little lackluster compared to some of the other trinkets listed.

What about the Argussian compass, too? Been trying to get my hands on this forever, and while it by no means helps with mana efficiency (the Use: ability on it doesn't seem all that appealing), the 36 stamina is amazing, moreso since I'm not an engineer - on elemental damage fights and as spike damage prevention this thing just seems like a must-have in a tank's repertoire.

So I guess the question goes out to the other tanks - what do you guys use in your main set? What do you normally swap out? I've somewhat resorted to sticking with a Moroes'/Adamantine combination for the most part, but it just doesn't feel 100% .. "right."

Another point of interest of mine is the mathematical value of, say, blocking 54 damage per hit on every incoming hit vs. the static dodge on moroes' pocket watch - or the 200 BV (266 if specced for it) Use ability on the Autoblocker vs. the 1280 AC from Adamantine Figurine. How do these match up over the "typical" encounters? (Prince, Gruul's Lair, Magtheridon, SSC, Kazzak and Doomwalker - for example.)

 

Branar

I *think* that the use effect on the autoblocker does not benefit from Shield Mastery.

Also, you may want to check out this thread. It doesn't talk too much about situational trinket use but it does have some information regarding tanking trinkets.

 

Suesse

Trash (level 70-72): Styleen's / Engineering
Reason: I don't keep shield block active since I'm trying to build threat as quickly as possible. Natural avoidance & block keeps revenge available (usually).

Bosses (level 73): Compass / Engineering
Reason: Stamina is king. I'm keeping shield block up all the time, so styleen's block rating is worthless.

5-mans: Styleen's / Auto-Blocker
Reason: Big shield slams are fun. On non-heroic trash and some of the easy heroic trash, 500+ block value is a large percentage of the total damage taken.

Clearly, there is some mixing of these categories. For example, for the evil, big bog lords in Heroic Underbog, I use the high stamina boss set (also high armor, but that's not related to the trinkets).

These sets are not just about trinkets though. I have partial sets for block value, high stamina/armor, and avoidance.

 

◊ Repeek

Fury Spec: Pocket Watch/Adamantite Figurine - unfortunately i still need the passive +def from adamantite to hit the def cap (gg no anticipation)

Prot Spec: Pocket Watch/DFT - +hit is huge, + dodge is huge. I love this combo, Pocket Watch is up so fast i can use it a ton (4-5 times on Doomwalker, great for his retarded burst damage).

While im still not a fan of On Use trinkets (i never hit adamantite's on use), Pocket Watch is still unbelievable. Still seems like DFT is amazing for tanking due to the abundant lack of +hit on tank gear (and the current trend of slapping +stam gems in every socket leaves little room for the +8 hit gems).

 

Suesse

I'd love the DFT (for the hit), but it's dodge value is not exactly "huge." Styleen's, Dabiri's, and Adamantine Figurine all have higher avoidance via defense than DFT has dodge.

 

Riot

Teez, I'd like to refer you to this thread I started on this same topic here in the Mechanic's subforum:

[Tank] Trinket Itemization!

I think it'll be helpful.

 

Suesse

Sorry to bump this post. I'm not the OP though, Riot.
Is it a fair summary of the other thread that stamina is always king and that styleen's is crap on bosses (when shield block is active)?
Also, you don't need 25% block to be immune to crushing via shield block. Somehow, this is always comes up in tanking threads.

 

Riot

It's a very fair summary to say that Stamina is king at the moment, given most bosses's huge burst potential. Stamina + Ironshields keep damage good and steady.

And ya, I fixed my post.

 

talzar

Let's not forget important fights like any boss that Sunders or Mortal Wounds. Pocket Watch is very very useful for those situations where completely avoiding a special attack is important. I also use pocket watch anytime all my healers get feared on Nightbane because they had to be too close cause of charred earth.

Aside from pocket watch I always have my LGG equiped for similar reasons. Healers get feared, healers get silenced, healers have to move from cave-in, etc... Also any time that I might have to adjust a mob and potentially be out of heal range or LOS for a couple seconds.

Like others have said, auto-blocker is nice for heroics.

 

Suesse

The engineering trinket gives 473 hp all the time. LGG gives 1500 for 20 seconds once every 5 minutes. 1500 just isn't what it used to be. When do you use it? When you get down to 12-14k hp and you can be killed by a special/auto combination?

 

world

You've got to remember that the lifegiving gem is actually a "3000" heal since its a 1500 heal combined with a +1500 to max hp for 20 seconds. When you look at it this way, i agree that the LGG is nowhere near as overpowered as it used to be because of the stam increses, but its definately still a force to be reckoned with.

 

Russta

Personally, I use Moroes' Lucky Pocket Watch and Argussion Compass. Though I have no real desire to change the former, my decision to use these is solely based on never getting Styleen's, Adamantite Figurine not existing and using all my badges on epic FR.

I kind of have my eye on Scarab of Displacement, especially if it gets buffed in the next patch.

 

talzar

Did you read my post? I mentioned when I use it. And like the poster below you said, LGG is 3k HP, not 1500. I really wish we didn't have to explain this to people every time LGG is brought up but we usually do.

As far as "stamina always being king" that's horseshit. Many warriors way overvalue stamina and go as far as socketing solid stars into every socket they have instead of valuing 8 dodge and 8 hit (or 8 def, depending on if you're max defense or not). With dodge / parry / miss it's pretty easy to get 50% avoidance rate and for those rare times where you do get unlucky and take 3-4 hits in a row with no avoidance you have healthstones / last stand / whatever else you need.

To give you an idea of avoidance, with mongoose proc, agi elixir, druid buff and kings (no grace of air) and pocket watch activated I can get > 43% dodge rate. Not counting the ~17% parry and ~10% miss rate. Without pocket watch activated I sit at 28-29% dodge (mongoose procs a ton and lasts quite a while). Having super high avoidance can help you for many many boss fights where you want to avoid special attacks, or just avoid high damage attacks period.

 

Nakilos

The problem with avoidance stats is they are just random. You can get really lucky and you don't get hit much/specials are parried/dodged, or this can be unlucky depending on when it happens during fights. Early on in a fight this is death to your initial threat generation.

Since I changed up my sockets to favor HP I really have in general lived a lot longer. I used to have a lot less hp but a lot more dodge/parry and I was a lot more subject to streaks making things really good or really bad. Of course, you have to be aware of your gear quality, if you aren't hitting the crit immunity cap then you need to be. Of course its fairly easy to hit without socketing gems into gear for it.

Honestly, your healers don't care if you avoid all the time, because they are setup to heal you through x dps over y period. Since avoidance really is random its not like they can take advantage of it much either.

 

Groglox

In this day and age of Misdirects this isn't *as* big a deal as it ever was. Being able to misdirect to a tank and then again throughout the fight can offset this (with some exceptions of course).

 

Nakilos

As far as trinkets go, the only time I've really cared is on Morogrim if one of my healers gets Water tombed, I hit the pocket watch and hope it helps some. Granted its again relying on a random factor, I've hit it and dodged 6 hits in a row, or 1. I like the auto blocker actually for trash, the click effect I am fairly sure gets the benefit of Shield mastery. My block value is 525 without it, 785 when I click it so that would indicate it works. My only gripe is how much block value takes up in the budget, I mean its a conditional stat, if you do not block, the stat does nothing for you (but granted, you will block more often than not due to shield block).

I don't see why you would underrate block rating though. It takes a lot less block rating to get 1% block chance than it does to get dodge, and a lot less compared to parry rating, and there are times where you shield block and its normal hit blocked, cleave/whatever instant attack blocked, and you can get crushed on the next hit because shield block isn't up. Or you can block it (more likely than dodging/parrying), and shield block is up for the next series of attacks, and not be crushed. When you do block too, its not an insigificant portion of damage mitigated either, block is good the same way stoneshields/ironshields are good - removing any substantial portion of damage on a hit will help in the long run.

 

Suesse

I think if my total avoidance/shield block were 70% or 75%, 5% additional block would not change my chance of getting a crushing blow. It would just decrease the chance I took a normal hit, correct? However, it sounds like with some of your raid buffs + consumables, you are cresting the 85% avoidance/shield block %.

I think the "avoiding a special stacking attack" is a good point. What is the second trinket you would suggest for this? (besides the pocket watch).

 

talzar

Yes you need 25% shield block to stop crushing blows (assuming you can keep shield block up permanently, which is often not possible on mobs like prince, moroes, just about anything). If you have 70 avoidance (dodge + parry + miss) and 99% shield block chance, you still have a chance of getting crushed.

So basically if you're using pocket watch and you want to know what other trinket you should use it goes like this:

Tanking trash? -> Auto Blocker
Don't have 25% shield block? -> Styleen's
Boss has high "Oh shit" potential? -> LGG
Nothing special? -> Engineering trinket / heroic underbog trinket / whatever you want, there's like a million of them in TBC.

 

Suesse

So you've been crushed with shield block active with less than 25% static block? Did you have your back to the mob? Or were you taking a pot at the time?

 

talzar

There were tests done a long long time ago (talking back in MC days when crushing blows were revealed... I say revealed, not introduced since they were always around but the combat log didn't distinguish them) regarding <100% block rate and crushing blows. What makes you think that it doesn't happen? Unless something changed in the combat mechanics that I missed I'm pretty sure it's like it's always been.

As I understand it, combat mechanics work as such (assuming a mob does not have a higher than normal crit rate)

+3 level mob has:

5.6% chance to crit you
4.4% chance to miss you
15% chance to crush you
75% chance to hit you.

Defense will change those crits to hits
Defense will change hits to misses

So with 490 defense you can say a mob has a 10% chance to miss, 15% crush, 75% hit. (this isn't counting the avoidance gained from dodge and parry from +defense)

Dodge, Parry, and Miss only effect hits (not crushes) up until you exceed 85% avoidance.

So basically what I'm saying is, avoidance doesn't reduce crushing blows unless it's super high (into the realm of rogue evasion tanks). It's not like "Well I have 60% avoidance, so naturally a mob will crush me 60% less if I never used shield block"

Am I wrong here? Does someone who's tested combat mechanics have a different understanding?

 

Dots

This is not the case. Been said many times on this board.


Nakilos, how does block chance help you keep Shield Block up? You lose a SB charge on a block either way. All that block chance does is very rarely subtract a tiny amount of damage (only if you block while SB is not up, how often does that really happen?)

 

◊ Oggie

Yeah, it looks like they snuck in a change at some point which allows paladins to be uncrushable. With 100% total avoidance it appears that you are now crush immune- the outlying cases seem to be related to putting weapons on your back and the like.

It's wierd, but it seems to be what's going on.

edit:
It's possible that Warrior block and Paladin block are a bit different, but I've not seen a single case of it and tests seem to show the opposite.

 

talzar

I guess I need to spend more time in the theorycrafting forums. I must admit I haven't even gone in there since they were created.

As far as Paladins being uncrushable that mostly has to do with their talents and abilities that give them super insane block rating + their avoidance.

 

Nakilos

I never said it helps you keep up shield block, however in those very common situations of hit, cleave/whatever, then another hit between the shield block cooldown, you are more likely to block than to dodge or parry that third hit, which would prevent a crush. My block percentage is comparatively a lot higher than my dodge or parry, as I am sure most peoples' is. That third hit is the only cause of tank related deaths due to crushing blows I've seen since the expansion has come out, so mitigating that isn't a bad thing.

A block isn't really a tiny amount of damage, not any more. If you get hit for 4000, and block 500 of it, its an additional 12.5% damage off that hit. I wouldn't call that insignificant and over an entire fight is a lot of damage that you did not need to take.

 

Dots

Your chance to get crushed on that third hit would always be 15%, unless you somehow raise your miss+dodge+parry+block above 85%. That isn't very likely without Shield Block or other cooldowns like Moroe's Watch.

Block value is indeed decent mitigation, especially because it is somewhat reliable with Shield Block. Adding a few % block chance will still do almost nothing for your overall mitigation on a boss fights. Your SB has to be down already, then you actually have to block it with your base block % and THEN it takes off like 1/8th to 1/10th of a boss hit.