I'm saying that requiring potions for instance END encounters is fine.

I'm saying that requiring potions for forcing progress QUICKLY is fine.

I'm saying that requiring potions for progress at all is NOT fine.

(Many more beat the encounters without pots, if you think it's cool i'd be inclined to think thats your definition of it that's skewed. My point was it was more then possible, where as in TBC it's not so.)

The way it worked in Naxx was top end guild potted up for almost all new fights and beat them relativly quick.
The guilds who didn't want that took some more weeks, farmed gear, and beat it without pots. (Barring very special encounters like Patchwerk and Loatheb... But you still had upwards 10 fights not needing pots at all)

That's the whole point:

It was doable WITHOUT potions.

It was doable quicker WITH potions.

Noone cried it was too easy.

If those three opinions were true for Naxx, why couldn't the same logic be applied here? Why is tuning encounters to consumeables suddenly a requirement where before it was not?

(Oh btw. I'm not counting consumeables on Tank. Any guild raiding at all could supply their MT's with pots for no cost and still build a guildbank.)

You are right. But in context of this discussion of "potting up" (the raid) i did exempt pots (titans, stoenshields) on the tanks. This goes back to ragnaros and beyond.
But if this is also meant when speaking of consumable dilemma ... my apologies.

I will stop derailing this thread here.

One last addendum @Brissa:

If you state that Blizzard HAS to tune with consumables in mind, and keeping in mind that no one really likes to farm for cosumables, you implicitely state that blizzard should take most of the consumables out of the game.
Or am I interpreting you wrong here?
Anyway I disagree. For me not the consumables per se are the problem. But the degree to which they are considered "needed" to progress in game at a reasonable pace. This is all subjective. But for me, pre Loatheb consumable use was fine.

It seems to me that you should be able to transmute engineering hats from cloth -> leather -> mail -> plate -> cloth at basically zero cost.

Your right of course in that raidwide potting is much, much worse than required potting on tanks.
But essentially its its the same problem only scaled to a new level by making encounters harder.

Yes I believe that the best solution is for pre emptive potting to go away all together. And while I dont expect that to happen I very much want potting to be as limited as possible.

Someone in the "consumables dilemma" thread separated pots into reactive pots and pre-emptive pots.
Reactive pots such as healing potions are good because they add an element of skill to the game (knowing when to pot and having the reaction to do so).
Pre emptive potting is bad because it requires no skill and only requires time to farm for the pot.

True, though Patchwerk was definately easier when potted

Of course but you have various ways of doing that without resorting to imo artifical measures blizz is now doing. In a way Vael (but it is not only him) was a good example of how it can be done. Dps pots? well, possible, but dangerous to use. Agro was tricky there (well in te beginning it was), armor pots? Why? tank died anyway in the battle. Apart from the discussion if you would have needed pots there, it was also implicit in the battle that their use would be limited. In Naxx, potting at Razuvious or Noth? eeehm, nah.

Dunno. People accepted that when learning Ragnaroz some pots are handy and then they suddenly have forgotten it in BWL? Most did Ragnaroz before BWL. I'd rather say that people now are more willing (but not liking it) to go on endless farming runs. From a certain point of view a number of bosses in BWL worked better than those in Naxx (herritcal view, i know ), though those were certainly more complex and harder. In Naxx I never felt agro management such a huge issue ( yeah there were a few cases)

I dont have an issue with the use of consumables. I do have an issue with the farming process. For me consumables are a tool to use, just like I use (being a priest) a mace with a lot of appropraite stats or good head piece. They give me tools to beat the harder encounters. Nobody here starts complaining that you should use your barefists at Gruul and not some high dps weapon because 'the farming is so boring'. Ofc not, the farming is interesting because it involves other boss encounters, it is the game(well part of it).
Consumables are also a tool but here the farming process is tedious and a endless timesink. If you want to improve consumables begin at the farming process and not the other way around.

Not to slight any engineers, but I think it's worth pointing out that goggles already in-game still put it in better shape than jewelcrafting. It's turned out to be the one of the most laughable crafting professions. The BoE stuff is in low-demand, the gemcutting is near worthless due to an abundance of both crafters and reagents, and the trinkets are mediocre at best-with many many upgrades being available both before and at 70-especially for melee. Compare that to say tailoring or blacksmithing(I don't think anyone would argue these are probably the two best professions) that make full use of primal nethers, are constantly sought after for BoEs, and also provide tremendous benefits through bop items far above and beyond the comparable raid-level gear.

I'd kill if they added just one recipe that was anywhere near the quality of those engineering goggles for jewelcrafters. As it is it feels like a profession that becomes all but worthless at 70.

The last thing we need is more professions competing for primal nether. Dear god.

And especially because eventually they'll all clamor for nether vortexes.

ed: As far as Blacksmithing being one of the "best" professions that's kind of a bitter joke. If I never levelled Blacksmithing and went herbalism instead I could be wielding a Gorehowl (or a gladiator 2h) instead of a Lionheart Champion, without having spent upwards of 3k gold worth of mats levelling it up, and STILL not having any WORLD DROP purp boe plans I could potentially profiteer off of. And I wouldn't be in dire straits as far as farming consumables for raiding.

Nobody actually wants any of the BS levelling BOEs. We make them and dispose of them at something like 90% loss to the tune of 150g-300g per point. This is no different from any other profession.

Tailoring has top-end gear for more slots, has purple plans that make BOEs that drop from instance bosses, and Alchemy costs virtually nothing to level. Not Blacksmithing. Blacksmithing is terrible.

I am as a hunter.

I primarily skin for the farming aspect of it.

My other profession is engineering which is leveled just high enough to use teleports and jumper cables. I was originally a miner, and I would have kept at it, but since I was trying to hit 58 before the expansion, I outleveled the ore around me and didn't want to get it up.

I guess it's just a matter of who you group with. Most nethers I've seen in the past month became "money items" or "rotted" because no one needed them for anything. They've gone to armorsmiths who had all their armor crafted long ago, weaponsmiths who are on their 3rd or 4th nether-imbued weapon for kicks(or sell the boes), or tailors who already finished their gear.

I may sound more bitter than I actually am about nethers, but truthfully I just wish jewelcrafting to be useful. Using primal nethers to make epic-quality items, bop(and even boe) would be a great way to do that--it seems to have worked for the other professions.

Case in point: if you removed every recipe from the game that currently uses primal nethers then JC would be imo perfectly in-line with the rest of the professions.

Yep, first time round I was LW/Skinning on my hunter, I never realised the synergy (til too late) between hunters & jumper cables. My 2nd hunter is Eng/Alchemy.

But I really don't see who it would hurt to make LW/Skinning 1 profession, so long as they had a sensible way to stop you from being penalised - i.e. you suddenly end up as a 190 odd LW/Skinner instead of a 375 Skinner/0 LW. But this is all pipedream stuff anyway.

Wow... can you import all the stupid people on your realm to mine? Prospecting takes very little time and anyone with a decent level of JC can do it. The prices for gems on my server are in direct relation to the prices of adamantite ore, and basically with the chance of getting a blue gem (15% per prospect according to wowhead) it makes no difference whether I prospect or sell ore. If that's not the case on your server then either you somehow gathered all the people who don't understand simple economics on your server or you don't know how to do math and haven't figured out that you don't make much (if any) money on prospecting. It varies a little bit - at some point I would have made a small profit, right now I'd make a small loss prospecting.

JC trinkets? There is one good one - talasite owl. If you are a healer (and I am) it is probably one of the best trinkets that you can get although still not much below warp-scarab brooch and some others. And really the main reason it's so good is because the healing trinkets out of kara are so atrocious (i.e. pretty much every healing trinket from lvl 70 instances beats them). All the other ones are bad and easily replacable by badge and normal/heroic instance trinkets.

The only reason I am JC is because of the service I provide to my guildies. The personal benefits are nill.