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Old 04/11/07, 12:39 PM   #301
Evalara
Piston Honda
 
Human Mage
 
Kel'Thuzad
Originally Posted by suicuique View Post
My bad. Loatheb was not on my mind when I wrote that question.
As I already pointed out in this thread Loatheb and (IMHO) Gothik were the only pre Saphiron bosses in Naxx that really benefitted from potting of the whole raid.
Perhaps you meant "flasking" rather than "potting", or left out the "hardcore guild" qualifier. GSA could not do Faerlina, Maexxna, and to a lesser extent Noth without raidwide dps pots. And does Patchwerk even need mentioning? Half the fights in Naxx were dps races, and they all "benefitted from potting the whole raid".


Back on the general topic, who cares if lots of stuff is trivial for those willing to use every possible consumable? How many of us are in that group, and more importantly how much of the total playerbase? If the choice is between encounters that are trivial with pots and challenging without them, and encounters that are challenging with pots and impossible without them, isn't the right choice obvious?

Speaking as a player in one of those "average" guilds, it's nice to have consumables as an option to bridge the gap when your gear/skill is not quite enough. If you take that way and balance all encounters around ideal gear and perfect execution, we'll just hit a brick wall and stop. This happened to us in a slighly different form at Huhuran. We couldn't motivate enough of our rogues and hunters to farm up the needed NR gear so for weeks we just steamrolled through Fankriss and then hearthed. Obviously farming up gear is different than farming up pots but it's still the same "do boring shit to enable interesting shit" mechanic and it really put off a lot of our players. The prospect of meeting an encounter that we just can't do because we're not good enough to beat is very disheartening (though admittedly if we'd ever tried C'Thun or Heigan I'm sure we would have experienced exactly that).

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Old 04/11/07, 12:53 PM   #302
Hozz
Don Flamenco
 
Tauren Warrior
 
Suramar
Originally Posted by drats View Post
I always thought the purpose of consumables wasn't to pot and flask up every encounter (titans for tanks excluded), but to let guilds practice encounters until the execution was perfect and then pot up to beat the encounter. If Blizzard tested encounters with no consumables first then with full consumables, I think they would have a much better idea of how to tune encounters and consumables.
The real problem with your assertion is that Blizzard does not actually test the content the same way players do so how much they use consumables is only part of the problem. Honestly, I think some of the TBC raid encounters illustrate that they do not test at all but even giving them the benefit of the doubt you have to conclude:

They have their choice of gear and classes. This is something that most raids do not have. We are always hurting for some class or another.

They dont have to deal with trash. If they test there is no way in hell they are actually dealing with repops on a 'live' timer over the course of days/weeks. Because if they were, they'd be longer and/or the trash would suck less. Mag's repops on an hour timer that drop no loot just about take the cake from a player-unfriendly perspective.

They also have some inside intel on how the designers 'intend' for the encounter to be beaten. This is probably their biggest edge over the common raid guild.

And finally, they are almost certainly maxxed out on pots. Do you think a raid of Blizzard testers is farming herbs or paying IGE for cash to buy herbs?

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Old 04/11/07, 12:56 PM   #303
 Daler
I'm on a goat
 
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Troll Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
They better be fixing the Netherstrike socket bonuses while they're tweaking Primalstrike.

Originally Posted by DeeNogger View Post
I look forward to seeing these "numbers". Notice that I put the word numbers in quotations. Thats sassy type for "you're full of shit".
Originally Posted by Florrie View Post
Nothing spells out attraction quite like being given books about the slaughter of your people.

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Old 04/11/07, 12:57 PM   #304
Zynth
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Warrior
 
Caelestrasz
Originally Posted by Jayde View Post
Does anyone particularly care that the world first C'thun kill shot basically had every buff in the universe? I really highly doubt it. Does anyone care if Scrub Guild #487132 full-flasked to kill Anub'Rekhan? I really highly doubt that too.
I recall a lot of people mentioning on every world first about the entire raid being flasked. 4H comes to mind, despite random D&T people saying the titans weren't really needed, they were still present and still deemed necessary by who ever is in charge of that sort of thing. C'thun was a full titans run, and I do recall people calling it out. Even on Nef I know a lot of melees used titans to counter fear + shadowflame/cleave combos, back when he was the end.

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Old 04/11/07, 1:08 PM   #305
Jayde
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Silvermoon (EU)
Originally Posted by Zynth View Post
I recall a lot of people mentioning on every world first about the entire raid being flasked. 4H comes to mind, despite random D&T people saying the titans weren't really needed, they were still present and still deemed necessary by who ever is in charge of that sort of thing. C'thun was a full titans run, and I do recall people calling it out. Even on Nef I know a lot of melees used titans to counter fear + shadowflame/cleave combos, back when he was the end.
Of course, I remember and am aware of all of those points...the question being, did anyone -really- care? Or, more specifically, were people clamoring that "omg the bosses need to be buffed, all these pots trivialize raid content?"

I don't remember any such types of comments, and even if they existed they were probably a distinct minority. Most people were aware of what we have found out through experience now: farming week in and week out is time-consuming, totally un-fun in any way, and generally a pain in the ass. So long as that is the case, consumables should be viewed as a crutch, not a balancing point.

If they provide too much benifit? Just nerf them. That's all. Simple solution. I'd prefer that raids return to being something we do on raid nights, rather than something we have to spend time on every other day of the week as well.

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Old 04/11/07, 1:39 PM   #306
Cireena
is about to die
 
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Orc Death Knight
 
Mal'Ganis
No one had to clamor for the changes Jayde. Blizzard didn't like that those guilds were doing it and took steps to keep their encounters from being "Brute Forced" for world firsts. As long as the option remains Blizzard will continue to create encoutners that prevent it from happening. Alchemy MUST be changed so the encounters can be changed, nothing short will suffice.

Suicuique - Yes all the first Nef kill on my sever was with a fully flasked raid. Rag kills tended to involve large amounts of flasking for all but the top 2 guilds. As Gurg said EJ's first Maggy kill was with a flasked tank. This has been going on since the start of raiding. It has just grown over time as more people came to understand the utility of Alchemy buffs. Re-tuning encounters to not require flask and pots is not a viable option anymore. As the saying goes the genie is out of the bottle you can't put it back. Everyone now knows how powerful buffs are they will not stop using it just because they don't need too.

Last edited by Cireena : 04/11/07 at 2:57 PM.

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Old 04/11/07, 1:54 PM   #307
duostrike
Don Flamenco
 
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Undead Mage
 
Mal'Ganis
The biggest difference from 1.0 (besides Loatheb) and the one people just won't put up with is required potting on farm content. Due to the shit loot in Raids/SSC once you beat a boss you really get no closer to beating him without consumables. They are retuning the gear (major change) and tweaking alchemy (minor change) at the same time while presumably tweaking the encounter itself (unknown).

All of this speculation really doesn't take into account the three-pronged approach that blizzard is using for 2.1.0.

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Old 04/11/07, 2:20 PM   #308
Docjowles
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Docjowles
Gnome Mage
 
No WoW Account
Another update on the alchemy situation:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...234401&sid=1#0

Here's the highlights, from my perspective:

# Flasks will work in this new system by taking up both the offensive and defensive elixir slots. We of course recognize this as a reduction of total effect of flasks, but as mentioned we will be balancing to take into account the use of a single flask on each player in an encounter.

# Potions (rather than elixirs) will not be affected at all by this system.

We’re currently planning to implement this change in a future patch...
That last line has me worried. "A future patch" is not necessarily the same as "2.1".

Edit: She made a followup post which suggests that all this is in fact slated for 2.1.

Last edited by Docjowles : 04/11/07 at 2:35 PM.

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Old 04/11/07, 2:25 PM   #309
Stormheart
Piston Honda
 
Human Mage
 
Mannoroth
So basically now, since the flask eats up both slots, this makes the farming problem better, but the requirement even worse.

Now, a flask is 3-5 times better than any 2 elixirs you choose to use on a raid. So basically if you need to boost your dmg, you have no choice but to flask because anything else is clearly not comparable. Here's to hoping that we don't need to as often once they retune, cause if we do, it will not be pretty.

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Old 04/11/07, 2:26 PM   #310
lyquid
Von Kaiser
 
Human Priest
 
Warsong
I have a feeling she was trying to say that the expansion to alchemy in the way of new recipes, etc., would come in the future.

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Old 04/11/07, 2:34 PM   #311
Grogzor
Huntard Extraordinaire
 
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Orc Hunter
 
Draenor
Flasks will work in this new system by taking up both the offensive and defensive elixir slots. We of course recognize this as a reduction of total effect of flasks, but as mentioned we will be balancing to take into account the use of a single flask on each player in an encounter.
BAM, encounters will be designed with a fully flasked raid in mind. Woot. =/

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Old 04/11/07, 2:34 PM   #312
Dendory
Piston Honda
 
Human Mage
 
<QP>
Hellscream
Flasks will work in this new system by taking up both the offensive and defensive elixir slots. We of course recognize this as a reduction of total effect of flasks, but as mentioned we will be balancing to take into account the use of a single flask on each player in an encounter.
So let's see. For a DPS caster, you have a choice of let's say adept + mastery, or flask of supreme power. Obviously the flask is much better. In fact I don't see any situation for any class where the flask wouldn't be better than any combination of elixir. So for raiders, does this change basically mean elixirs are no longer going to be used, but flasks will become the norm?

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Old 04/11/07, 2:35 PM   #313
• Snowy
Not a Super Macho Man
 
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Blood Elf Priest
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Stormheart View Post
So basically now, since the flask eats up both slots, this makes the farming problem better, but the requirement even worse.

Now, a flask is 3-5 times better than any 2 elixirs you choose to use on a raid. So basically if you need to boost your dmg, you have no choice but to flask because anything else is clearly not comparable. Here's to hoping that we don't need to as often once they retune, cause if we do, it will not be pretty.
Oh, I don't know about that. For farm encounters, I'd be perfectly fine with just using an adepts, for slightly more difficult encounters I can use an elixir of major shadow power, and for new content I can use the flask which is 2 hours without any worries about throwing away money on other consumables. There are similiar "tiers" of buffing for most classes I think.

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Old 04/11/07, 2:35 PM   #314
mek
Don Flamenco
 
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Draenei Shaman
 
Tichondrius
# Flasks will work in this new system by taking up both the offensive and defensive elixir slots. We of course recognize this as a reduction of total effect of flasks, but as mentioned we will be balancing to take into account the use of a single flask on each player in an encounter.
Of course it's unfortunate that flasks are "required" but this is about a zillion times better than the current system. And let's not kid ourselves - flasks were required before, too. Currently a fully buffed melee is drinking flask + 4 elixirs PER ATTEMPT; 30 elixirs/night is perfectly reasonable, which adds up to well over 100 terocone for raid preparation.

The new price of raiding is much much cheaper, and I'm happy with these changes.

edit: one must also consider that since we are now drinking less elixirs, the prices of herbs will drop.

Last edited by mek : 04/11/07 at 2:42 PM.

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Old 04/11/07, 2:38 PM   #315
Fizwidget
Von Kaiser
 
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Gnome Warlock
 
Medivh
Originally Posted by Dendory View Post
So let's see. For a DPS caster, you have a choice of let's say adept + mastery, or flask of supreme power. Obviously the flask is much better. In fact I don't see any situation for any class where the flask wouldn't be better than any combination of elixir. So for raiders, does this change basically mean elixirs are no longer going to be used, but flasks will become the norm?
Yes. which:
a) Does not address the high-end raider issue that flasks far outstrip gear upgrades. Therefore bosses are tuned for flasks, and then implicitly require them.
b) Does not address the stated dev concern that potting was causing undue herbalism tedium.

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Old 04/11/07, 2:39 PM   #316
lyquid
Von Kaiser
 
Human Priest
 
Warsong
Definitely better. Although as a caster (shadow priest) I think I'd end up using a mighty restoration flask over a supreme power. Either way, its miles better than it used to be. Good thing I saved up all that dreaming glory, haha.

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Old 04/11/07, 2:43 PM   #317
Grogzor
Huntard Extraordinaire
 
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Orc Hunter
 
Draenor
Originally Posted by mek View Post
Of course it's unfortunate that flasks are "required" but this is about a zillion times better than the current system. And let's not kid ourselves - flasks were required before, too. Currently a fully buffed melee is drinking flask + 4 elixirs PER ATTEMPT; 30 elixirs/night is perfectly reasonable, which adds up to well over 100 terocone for raid preparation.

The new price of raiding is much much cheaper, and I'm happy with these changes.

edit: one must also consider that since we are now drinking less elixirs, the prices of herbs will drop.
I still think 200g a night of attempts is a bit much. On my server that is how much FoRA currently go for =/

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Old 04/11/07, 2:44 PM   #318
♦ Praetorian
Mike Tyson
 
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Orc Shaman
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by mek View Post
edit: one must also consider that since we are now drinking less elixirs, the prices of herbs will drop.
In other news, Mana Thistle will now be 100g/stack.

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Old 04/11/07, 2:47 PM   #319
Wings
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Night Elf Druid
 
Argent Dawn
I agree that it's better.

As long as this change is done to balance the encounters more easily, as opposed to Nerfing the raid, it's a definate Good change in my book.

I'd rather use 2 flasks on a raid evening of wiping, than new elixirs every attempt, as long as the encounters are balanced around that.

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Old 04/11/07, 2:49 PM   #320
Thezilch
Piston Honda
 
Undead Priest
 
Kil'Jaeden
Blizzard, still out of touch... The topic of elixirs vs flasks has been beaten to death. Instead, I love this gem:
# Since the number of elixirs is now limited, we can also now allow them to stack with class buffs, so intellect elixirs will actually matter since they will now stack with arcane intellect. As mentioned previously we’ll be introducing some new recipes that would have simply been left unused before as they wouldn’t have been allowed to stack with class buffs.
Who has ever thought, "Man I wish I could have 60 more INT!" or "If only this 30 SPI stacked with DS!" Well, you may have back in BWL, but I can't understand why Blizzard would devote any time to this under the new alchemy system. Not even with resistance elixirs.

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Old 04/11/07, 2:50 PM   #321
Fizwidget
Von Kaiser
 
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Gnome Warlock
 
Medivh
Originally Posted by Praetorian View Post
In other news, Mana Thistle will now be 100g/stack.
and Black Lotus at 100g a pop. Unless they want to combine insult with injury and introduce "An exciting new Caster-DPS Flask discovery!" to 2.1

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Old 04/11/07, 2:51 PM   #322
Linnet
Piston Honda
 
Undead Warrior
 
Argent Dawn (EU)
Hope they make the TBC flask recipes available as rep rewards now. Because all those people in less hardcore guilds who were stacking elixirs and not bothering with flasks will now want to bother with flasks instead.

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Old 04/11/07, 2:52 PM   #323
mek
Don Flamenco
 
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Draenei Shaman
 
Tichondrius
Originally Posted by Praetorian View Post
In other news, Mana Thistle will now be 100g/stack.
Highly likely, but the drop in the value of terocone and ancient lichen will be equally significant. FoRA is a good example as it's very expensive due to the 20 terocone, which are currently also used in Major Agility, Fel Strength, Mastery (3 per!!). Given 8 attempts at Boss X, thats 20 + (8)(1+2+3)= yep, 100 terocone per raid, reduced to a mere 20.

This change will probably also increase the popularity of the "burst" potions, such as Haste, Heroic, Destruction, etc... which might have a further effect on the value of herbs.

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Old 04/11/07, 2:54 PM   #324
Fizwidget
Von Kaiser
 
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Medivh
Originally Posted by mek View Post
And let's not kid ourselves - flasks were required before, too.
As it stands now, I'd say flasks are a good money-saver for wipe/learning nights, and pots which stack well and reach toward flask power levels are money savers over flask on farm nights. Now I won't have access to stacking elixers for clears, so I'll be turning to flasks for farm bosses.

3 cheers for enrage timers!

Edit: on another note, they don't seem to be touching Well Fed or Wizard Oil. So even with this, its still a relatively trivial change to my tedium time.

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Old 04/11/07, 2:56 PM   #325
Phalanx
Oh, what I wouldn't give for a holocaust cloak.
 
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Human Mage
 
Llane
Originally Posted by Thezilch View Post
Blizzard, still out of touch... The topic of elixirs vs flasks has been beaten to death. Instead, I love this gem:Who has ever thought, "Man I wish I could have 60 more INT!" or "If only this 30 SPI stacked with DS!" Well, you may have back in BWL, but I can't understand why Blizzard would devote any time to this under the new alchemy system. Not even with resistance elixirs.
I would take 60 more Int or 30 more Spi in a heartbeat. Especially given the static gains from Mind Mastery for us Arcane/x Mages. Also, I'll take all the Spirit I can get. Helps me with Evocation a great deal.

I imagine even Hunters and Shadow Priests would be in the same boat.

While your numbers might have been arbitrary, the gains are not dismissed so quickly by all.

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