Am I really surrounded by people that consider tuning content, and doing content, with 25 flasked people is reasonable?
I don't think so, but there just really isn't a lot beyond "Seriously? A flask for each person? I don't fucking think so." for most of us to add. I don't think my fingers can cross far enough to hope that that CM was horribly misinterpreted, or that our collective idea of "tuned for a flask per person" is terribly far from the reality of what that tuning means, and that tuned for a flask means "doable without one."
Theoretically, what difference does it make between the new alchemy and old alchemy if you are going to flask up the raid anyway?
You saved the 100(20*5) elixirs that you are going to throw in.
And they are a lot more expensive than two flasks per night.
They are introducing new Elixirs, most likely there will be fights that are balanced around the buff they give you. On these fights you will most likley kill the Flask and use 2x Elixirs instead. This means even more farming when you think it out. You will need to farm for all the new elixirs as well as the flasks....both will be required no matter what as we know officially know that every enounter is balanced around flowers and not skill. They are tuning fights around a profession that most people will not pick up instead of skill and gear obtained through normal progression....doesn't that seem just dumb to most? Why is Alchemy/Herb considered an optional profession when EVERYONE that wants to make progress needs to have them. Why isn't this the same for the other professions? Why are professions more important than how well your raid plays together since all the skill in the world won't make up the major gains you pick up via pots/flasks/elixirs.
Is there some level of consumables use that you consider acceptable? Or is it strictly "it all must go"?
Conjecture: Alchemy should be as required/desirable as the rest of the professions.
Solution A:
Balance content around the following:
1. Bring X number of engineers each week to beat content.
2. Bring X number of leatherworkers each week to beat content.
3. Bring X number of blacksmiths each week to beat content.
4. Bring X number of tailors each week to beat content.
X. Bring X number of Y profession to beat Z content.
Solution B:
1. Nerf alchemy or the encounter down to the level where alchemy is no longer required.
-----------------------------------------------
I would like them to go with solution B. Besides being easier for Blizzard it makes the professions even in power and desirability. Anything besides solution A or B does not solve the balancing of the professions and anything besides B doesn't solve the grinding consumable problems.
There's a lot of overreaction going on here. I hate flasks with a passion, but Blizz isn't too far off from where they should be in terms of the new elixirs/flasks. They just need to reduce the power and cost values of flasks by about 1/3 so the benefit of using a flask over two elixirs is mostly relegated to the fact that flasks don't disappear on death.
The problems with TBC raiding aren't just with consumables. It is a combination of consumables, overtuning, and lack of gear progression. The consumables issue only mask the other two issues. A lot of the complaining about the new consumables are mostly due to problems with roots in the other two issues, and you are just looking at the consumable changes in the vacuum assuming that nothing else is addressed. Even if they put a bullet to the head of flasks, overtuning and shitty gear would still mean a shitty raid game. Just a less time consuming shitty raid game.
Bringing it back to the sanity of the earlier game where potting all the way up is only necessary to try to eek out a first kill if you are a bit undergeared or underskilled requires making encounters tuned towards that, and a consumable spread small enough that they can achieve it without trivialization. This elixir change brings it a lot closer to the reasonable spread to facitate proper tuning. They just need to follow through with the other aspects, of which they are at least are aware.
Even if you believe, which I do not, that this is a step in the right direction; you need to be careful in realizing blizzard is far less likely to fully fix this at a later time. This is likely it until this game is dead. If you can live with content tuned to max buffs (same as before, just max buffs are now barely less... like thats really going to compare to flasks... anyway) then I'm glad you are content.
Assuming you want to keep playing this game and not switch, and working under the assumption that blizzard won't make raid zones consumable free, does that really make me a horrible person for being happy I'll have to farm less? Would I like to never have to farm? Of course. Would I cheer on Blizzard for making every boss Garr and upping the potion cooldown to 5 minutes? In light of the way things are, I certainly would. Potions are horrible right now. Is the only reason this isn't a step in the right direction because it makes it less likely you'll get your dream of zero consumables realized?
EDIT: That sounds a lot sassier than I intended it to sound. I should use fewer rhetorical questions.
Last edited by Yaltus : 04/11/07 at 6:51 PM.
Reason: noting overabundance of sass
Which would you prefer, a moderate consumable change or Blizzard tuning encounters assuming that every DPS class performs to 98% of their maximum dps potential?
Farming herbs or buying them with gold you farmed isn't inherently fun, but benching a bunch of shitty dps players that just can't push buttons right is probably FAR worse for their business. Alchemy isn't going anywhere, and as min/maxers you pretty much need to make your peace with that.
Farm content shouldn't require massive consumable use, and with this change it doesn't look like it will require flasks as your gear improves.
Assuming you want to keep playing this game and not switch, and working under the assumption that blizzard won't make raid zones consumable free, does that really make me a horrible person for being happy I'll have to farm less? Would I like to never have to farm? Of course. Would I cheer on Blizzard for making every boss Garr and upping the potion cooldown to 5 minutes? Is the only reason this isn't a step in the right direction because it makes it less likely you'll get your dream of zero consumables realized?
EDIT: That sounds a lot sassier than I intended it to sound. I should use fewer rhetorical questions.
Most people view this as having to pot more, not less. Especially so to less then cutting-edge guilds, in which, i can tell you for sure, scoff at having anyone but the mt and a few gung-ho healers and mages flask out.
Originally Posted by Apate
Zyla, International Man of a Certain Standard.
Originally Posted by Wraithlin
What have you brought to this discussion? The usual vacuous and contentless tripe that you contribute to these forums - no more and no less.
The problems with TBC raiding aren't just with consumables. It is a combination of consumables, overtuning, and lack of gear progression. The consumables issue only mask the other two issues.
Look at it from this view: Once they tune the encounters, remove the bugs and increase gar rewards you are still stuck with this 'fix' for alchemy. The fix being that it is still 100% required for you to progress. They didn't solve anything and we still have the other two issues.....so a lot are skeptical at how well those fixes will be.
Just an FYI on my perspective to this. I was every at every 'first' kill for my guild from BWL up to KT. I was there for a world first and was on many top 5/10 kills on the rest of Naxx. However since I do not have any time to farm for consumables nor farm for the gold to pay for them.....I am no longer raiding. I don't even try to make it home in time for the raids since I would be the only one there without consumables. So, TBC raiding has been almost non existent to me simply because of fucking virtual flowers (and that pesky anti-melee thing didn't help either). I get to watch my guild progress from the sidelines now.
Even if you believe, which I do not, that this is a step in the right direction;
I think it's undeniably a step in the right direction. They are lessening the number of consumables it's possible to use and tuning encounters for fewer consumable usage than they are currently.
Whether it's sufficient or not is arguable, and really it comes down to what they mean by "balancing to take into account the use of a single flask". Does that mean that the fights are going to effectively require a flask? Or does it mean that a flask will help when you're undergeared, but you'll be able to farm a boss flaskless with a few gear upgrades and the clean execution that comes with practice?
Admittedly, a single flask is still more powerful than a tier or two of gear upgrades, but coupled with just plain getting better at fights, I can see bosses being tuned to the point where skilled players don't need a flask at all, ever. Given Blizzard's track record I'm not putting money on that, but based on what they've said, it's entirely possible. Assuming that the single comment that's been made with respect to flask usage means the absolute worst case of "every boss will require every raider to use a flask every time" seems a little excessive.
Even if you believe, which I do not, that this is a step in the right direction; you need to be careful in realizing blizzard is far less likely to fully fix this at a later time. This is likely it until this game is dead. If you can live with content tuned to max buffs (same as before, just max buffs are now barely less... like thats really going to compare to flasks... anyway) then I'm glad you are content.
Don't mistake 'glad this isn't an even stupider decision than it is' for contentedness. There are still a laundry list of problems involved with consumables in raids but without knowing what Blizzard's definition of 'tuned' is (which seems to vary in every single instance they put out) or seeing any other changes to the recipes in 2.1 it's hard to know exactly where things are going to go, other than "Not Away From Removing Chain Chugging Mana Potions" which matters a hell of a lot more than the number of elixirs on your DPS. This isn't a solution and I don't think that's a secret to anybody. I'm still not going to farm for potions other than PVP pots on my free nights and this change makes it slightly easier for me, but that doesn't mean I'm ecstatically overjoyed that I only would have to flask and chain chug mana pots.
Aesthete:
You are right, absolutely, that it is the bigger picture that counts. But that doesn't mean that 2 half assed solutions equal a full one.
Each part of the problem needs to be fully addressed in a logical manner that makes the game more fun, engaging, and balanced... and perhaps tuned. We are talking about consumable usage here only. The other issues... are an aside topic.
I hope they're thinking that 25 flasks and a ton of pots doesn't make the encounter too easy, but 0 flasks/elixirs/pots doesn't make it impossible. Consumables should be used if you're struggling to do a fight and you need that extra little pick-me-up to make up for what you might lack in skill/gear, but subsequent kills of a boss should be absolutely doable without the need of them.
There's always free cheese in the mouse traps, but the mice there ain't happy.
I don't think enough people realize this. If this change goes through without people kicking and screaming over how terrible it is, consumables will probably stay this way forever. Meaning that in order to progress in raiding, everyone is going to need multiple flasks per week. This is barely better than what currently exists, and I believe that people seeing this "solution" will just quit raiding entirely.
How Blizzard can have pvp on one hand, with it's amazing reward structure (which incidentally gears your entire team in parallel), no gold sinks (one time charter fee of 20-40g per person is cheap). Then on the other side we have.... raiding, and this absurd risk/reward system even before we take into account consumables. Add in consumables, time, organization, repair costs, resist gear, etc etc, and it is a little absurd how these two systems are supposed to be "equal".
Blizzard used to have a motto: "Is this fun?". Personally, I miss that Blizzard sorely, because raiding is NOT fun, and it is why I've turned most of my attention to arena pvp.
I really wish content was tested with squibs, zero profession characters with no talents spent, geared only in gear that dropped in the preceeding zone.
I want to raid content so that I can raid more content so that I can raid more content. Nowhere in that mainstream line of pve progression is there a stop at the pinecone palace of potions.
I'm in favor of any change to raiding that makes it realistic for a group with zero professions and zero talents and a whole lot of skill and persistance to overcome the cutting edge content at the peak of the game. This probably means that raiding needs a meaningful gear progression. This probably means that with regards to consumables they are either nerfed into oblivion in relation to said gear progression, a stat cap is imposed, or they are stripped at the zone in. As I find stat caps to be boring, and nerfing outdoor activities to also be boring, I favor stripping the consumables at the door.
Personally, I feel that farming terrocone is a direct progression from PVPSandLOL and should probably be an important factor in world pvp/pve. Let world pvp fight over resource nodes, and be influenced by full out flask/elixir abuse, and there's a niche for the crazy alchemical potions. It's even one that gives those zany alchemists a real alchemical benefit. Hell, give the person who mines the most sand/dreamfoil/etc a shot at bonus herbalism recipes from the darkmoon faire while you're at it.
I'm completely ok with leaving alchemy in the game for people that really enjoy running around staring at their minimap, but I am not ok with basing my progression - the progression for people who enjoy killing dragons in organized groups, to be tied to running around staring at the minimap.
Bandaids, maybe a baked egg and a health pot or 3, that's the most consumables I ever want (and I'd be pissed about bandaids if first aid were not a "free" profession for all characters)
flasks on anyone but maybe the MT is absurd to me.
Personally I'm not even sure why this is reegarded as acceptable. Certianly it's not overly taxing, but it doesn't add anything to the game. Why do I even have to describe it as, "not too bad"? If it's not "good" why is it even in the game.
Alchemists and Herbalists are people too, and They want a useful and productive tradeskill. But that shouldn't be carried on backs of other players and their enjoyment.
Too expand slighty, my guild raids a lot, nearly everyday. We can regularly kill Gruul, and are probably starting Mag this week. Consumables help us beat things that we struggle on, undoubtedly. But, I would much, much, much rather wipe for days on a boss perfecting it in a consumable free environment, then wipe even once, when every death means I have added to my mindless farming requirements. (Flasks are still stupid, even if they do last through death.)
Wow is supposed to be a fun, and enjoyable hobby, and raiding should be a viable part of that. Requiring me to invest a certian ammount of effort in gear and stuff one time is fine. Having to do it before every raid is beyong unbearable. And makes my inarticulate with anger and disapointment.
"I have nothing personally invested in my own opinions. I'm just, like, inviting you to join me on the bandwagon of my own uncertainty." -Taylor Mali
A little background info before the rest of my post. I've been an alchemist since beta. Pre-TBC I had every recipe for months, and I will have every recipe again very soon(I've discovered 4 of the 5 discovery recipes). I'm an elixir spec alchemist with almost every recipe in the game, and as such I make literally thousands of potions/elixirs every week for my guildmates and various other people on my server. I'm probably as hardcore about alchemy as anyone there is.
This shit needs to change, and I would not oppose huge nerfs to specific elements of alchemy.
Elixirs and flasks are the problem with alchemy and need to go or be nerfed significantly. They require no skill to use or obtain whatsoever, and they are overpowered. Alchemy should be about potions, not elixirs. Potions do require an amount of skill(however small it may be) to use properly, just as any class ability would. It's an extra ability for you to use and keep track of, that is limited by a cooldown. This is what alchemy should be about.
View alchemy as a 'buffet' of new class abilities that all share a 2 minute cooldown. Give us more options, and make sure they're options that reward intelligence and skill. Give us potions that we have to use reactively, and make all potions easier to obtain. The alchemy specializations were a step in the right direction. After you've given us a bunch of cool potions, give us a few more with slightly superior effects and make them BoP. That can be our version of ring enchants.
This elixir shit has got to go. It is not fun. It's retarded. Change it.
Is there some level of consumables use that you consider acceptable? Or is it strictly "it all must go"?
At this point, for me, "acceptable" would be back to the MC/BWL days. Bring a stack or two of health pots, and enough bandages to last the night. Back when MC was new (to me) the Rogues had many DPS competitions which resulted in some rogues coming in with Songflower Serenade, Mongoose pots, and an Onyxia buff every possible raid. It was novel for about 1-2 months before I said "screw it" and depended on my own gear and skill to stay at/near top.
The more I think about it, the more absurd it seems to me that I'm now numb to throwing two elixirs up for random boss X, repeating the same mistakes as in my early raiding days.
Despite raid encounters being tuned for consumable usage(and they have been), my guild has been able to progress just fine with moderate usage of consumables. Everyone flasked for the world first c'thun kill; our first c'thun kill had probably 3/4th of the raid flasked, and I'd be willing to bet that's on the only time in a raid we had more than 5-6 people flasked. It just took us much longer to learn the fight than Nihilum, of course, but we got it eventually, and with less consumables and less overall skill.
As bekah noted earlier in the thread, I wouldn't want consumables eliminated; it allows me to flask, so that a casual player in my guild who isn't as skilled as I am doesn't get me killed when he chains a green eye beam or a shatter(or to make up for his lackluster dps). We're not going to kick someone out because they aren't doing well on a fight, we always aim to help them progress, which sometimes can be more painful than clicking herbs now and then. Keeping this in mind:
1) Alchemy is ideally a "patch" for gear progression, lack of player skill/group cohesion, and plain old "getting over the hump" it takes to get a boss on farm sometimes. This should not change, and I'd argue it currently serves exactly this purpose for less-than-hardcore guilds.
2) Because it's available, guilds wanting to be world firsts are going to use it to maximum effect. This should be expected.
3) Recently, due to the lack of decent itemization increases and the relative power of consumables to gear, consumables make up a larger part of the numbers game than "how many times have we farmed bosses before this." As a result, content seems overtuned.
4) Blizzard's solution seems to be slowly buffing itemization(so they say) and limiting the top end of what alchemy can do.
Nothing seems unreasonable to me. Just because they say "We keep in mind that every player could be flasked and balance accordingly" does not mean "You must flask to progress."
Last edited by Snow : 04/11/07 at 7:04 PM.
Reason: cleaner formatting; should have used preview
"We have flasked this far, what makes it different now?"
And
"Mages and healers have been flasking since Naxx, just because you didnt have to Flask back then means you were lucky"
and lastly
"You got to FD from MC-Naxx, you should have plenty of gold for flasks"
They think that flasking is ok because it will get them through content before its nerfed, they didnt like it that I pointed out they killed Hydross after he no longer could crushing blow. "Flasks arent expensive" they say yet didnt believe me when I told them prices will go up.
150 Spelldamage/360 AP/70 Mp5/1500 HP/2000 Mana is not made up for in one tier of gear. If you HAVE to flask now to beat an encounter, you will have to continue flasking until you have made up the gap to use lesser consumables. Using flasks on Farmed content is stupid.
Aesthete:
You are right, absolutely, that it is the bigger picture that counts. But that doesn't mean that 2 half assed solutions equal a full one.
Each part of the problem needs to be fully addressed in a logical manner that makes the game more fun, engaging, and balanced... and perhaps tuned. We are talking about consumable usage here only. The other issues... are an aside topic.
However, those issues relate directly to consumable usage. Suppose the spread of consumable usage is 'small enough' such that it is possible to make encounters that potting up can give you an edge but isn't required for advancement unless you are undergeared. Then the the difference between being forced to use consumables to win or not is a matter of tuning.
The current issue of being forced to pot up on farm content is caused not just by overpowered consumables, but overtuning so that you need to go all out to win and lack of gear progression such that you cannot advance past the consumables.
Take hydross for an example. He requires a good amount of coordination, but he also requires very high amounts of dps (or healing/tanking if you do the 250% nature trick) to beat the enrage timer. However, if he was retuned such that his enrage timer was say, 15 minutes, then he would still require coordination and skill, but you wouldn't have to fully pot to down him before he instagibs the raid. And if he dropped good upgrades then the amount of potting you have to do goes a lot faster over time.
The way they have to solve the issue is not just by weakening consumables (which is a necessary component), but downtuning the 'bigger numbers' aspects of the fights so you don't absolutely need them.
edit for content: I think people are reading into this far more than is necessary. The discrepancy between well played DPS and poor DPS is STILL to this day larger than flask vs unflasked. That won't change after this change, and will still dictate a lot of the "difficulty" in encounters. I don't see a "save the shitty players" campaign starting any time soon.
04/11/07, 6:41 PM
The revolution will not be alchemized.
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