2.10 profession preview - Page 25

spronk · 04/12/07, 1:16 AM

Originally Posted by Lagomorph

Quigon is correct that the entire system is ridiculous.

But all of the fixes here overlook a fix that is:

A) Already coded
B) Maintains a use for Alchemy

And that fix is:
Make Flasks and Elixir's not stack with player buffs. The entire problem is fixed. (assuming some minor re-tuning of a couple class buffs). Alchemy becomes about replacing a buff you don't have access to because of group size/composition not about drastically increasing player power in an absolute sense.
If anyone sees a hole in this - please point it out.

Then everyone start using the fact that on average you're only 6 hops from a Blizzard Dev to try and get this (or something else that solves the problem) into their hands.

They are smart people, they HAVE to be to have made such a great game. Now all they have to do is realize that Elixir of sages not stacking with player buffs is a solution - not a problem.

I'm 1 hop from a blizzard dev

and its not going to happen. The game is not designed by committee or suggestion box, the lead designers have some very strong philosophies and ideas that carry through the entire game.

The simple flaw in your idea is that it doesn't allow Blizzard to design end-level bosses (Kael, Vashj, BT wing bosses, etc) with consumables in mind. Yes, many are also skill based fights but many will also be farm-based (resist gear, consumables, itemization). No one is going to run a 25 man raid without a few priests, pallies, mages, druids, etc to give the baseline buffs so its kind of silly to say "well... flask is there in case you don't have a pally!". Flasks/elixirs should be there in case your players aren't 100% PVE spec, good, geared, and class-comp balanced.

I think people are way over-reacting to these changes. I saw a demo of 2.1.0 internal build earlier this week, SSC and TK are tuned to be a lot better. My WoW sub is currently cancelled because I have no desire to spend more time farming herbs than raiding, from what I saw I'll probably renew my sub when 2.1.0 hits. BT and Hyjal are beautifully done and definitely have more the Naxx style of raid design than the shit that is SSC (ok the bosses are decent but the trash is obnoxious). IMO this is really a good time to check out LOTRo free, have fun with its lore, etc and then come back to WoW in 1-2 months when 2.1 hits. I really have no idea why anyone would subjucate themselves to SSC right now other than perhaps some S&M rp guild.

Grogzor · 04/12/07, 1:23 AM

Originally Posted by spronk

I'm 1 hop from a blizzard dev

and its not going to happen. The game is not designed by committee or suggestion box, the lead designers have some very strong philosophies and ideas that carry through the entire game.

The simple flaw in your idea is that it doesn't allow Blizzard to design end-level bosses (Kael, Vashj, BT wing bosses, etc) with consumables in mind. Yes, many are also skill based fights but many will also be farm-based (resist gear, consumables, itemization). No one is going to run a 25 man raid without a few priests, pallies, mages, druids, etc to give the baseline buffs so its kind of silly to say "well... flask is there in case you don't have a pally!". Flasks/elixirs should be there in case your players aren't 100% PVE spec, good, geared, and class-comp balanced.

I think people are way over-reacting to these changes. I saw a demo of 2.1.0 internal build earlier this week, SSC and TK are tuned to be a lot better. My WoW sub is currently cancelled because I have no desire to spend more time farming herbs than raiding, from what I saw I'll probably renew my sub when 2.1.0 hits. BT and Hyjal are beautifully done and definitely have more the Naxx style of raid design than the shit that is SSC (ok the bosses are decent but the trash is obnoxious). IMO this is really a good time to check out LOTRo free, have fun with its lore, etc and then come back to WoW in 1-2 months when 2.1 hits. I really have no idea why anyone would subjucate themselves to SSC right now other than perhaps some S&M rp guild.

Unless they change their stance and make it so that Flasks are not a requirement for each person to raid, there will be a problem. I said it before and I will say it again.

Lets say a boss is tuned thinking everyone is going to be Flasked and it can truly only be beaten by a Flasked raid. 360 AP/1500 HP/70 Mp5/150 Spell Damage is not made up for in one tier of gear. If you can barely beat an encounter in full flasks, you will have to continue to Flask until you get past the gear that boss is dropping and into the next tier.

Flasks on months old content = Stupid.

Also, all this does is create a requirement to raid. Why not implement a change where to zone into any 25 man raid instance, people must use a consumable item only created by Leatherworking? It would be the exact same principle.

Requiring consumables is stupid and a time sink. Its not even an enjoyable time sink unless you are very Masochistic.

Unless you can come in here and tell me, an entire raid will be able to get by with the MT flasked and everyone using 2 elixirs, I will not be satisfied and I am pretty sure others will not be as well.

Lagomorph · 04/12/07, 1:35 AM

Originally Posted by spronk

...The simple flaw in your idea is that it doesn't allow Blizzard to design end-level bosses (Kael, Vashj, BT wing bosses, etc) with consumables in mind...

The idea behind this change seems to be reducing the absolute power gain that a raid can achieve from consumable use. I suppose that my question/concern is the same as that expressed in other places:

The flasks are just too damn powerful.

So my suggestion was more about toning down their effects (take them from +20% power gain to 5%).

Essentially - consumables getting tuned down or gear getting tuned up (or both) is fine.

I don't mind a touch of farming - and I admit that I like being able to buff my character - I can't imagine farming up 6+ flasks a week for each person. And if that's what this change means - it fails utterly.

Crowl · 04/12/07, 1:41 AM

Originally Posted by Grogzor

BAM, encounters will be designed with a fully flasked raid in mind. Woot. =/

This would be a really stupid idea on blizard's part, with these changes they should balance the content on the two elixirs, allowing people to then flask to push over the top for their first kills and then drop to the average after that.

Grogzor · 04/12/07, 1:55 AM

Originally Posted by Crowl

This would be a really stupid idea on blizard's part, with these changes they should balance the content on the two elixirs, allowing people to then flask to push over the top for their first kills and then drop to the average after that.

But Flasks and elixirs are not the only problem either. Potions are going to be a pain in the ass. What is the average for Super Mana Potions right now? About 10g per stack of 5? I think they sell for even higher then that on my server. Healers are required to chain chug these things. Hunters like to even go for the Fel Mana Potions which are even more expensive.

But lets not forget these little magical things called Ironshield Potions...according to Wowhead, 10g is the average AH price for 1. Imagine any encounter where the tank is required to chain chug these a la Patchwerk.

Consumables all across the board are out of hand.

Blizzard seriously needs to address these issues.

sovelis41 · 04/12/07, 1:55 AM

Originally Posted by Crowl

This would be a really stupid idea on blizard's part, with these changes they should balance the content on the two elixirs, allowing people to then flask to push over the top for their first kills and then drop to the average after that.

Well this is exactly the idea they are going off of: testing with teh assumption every raid member is using a flask (even after the alchemy changes).

EDIT: @ Grogzor: Mana potions per stack can reach 25g a stack at raid time (i've heard of people selling them for 30g for 5) and average around 20g on Zul'jin at off-raid times. Fel mana potions are just as bad and buying the mats to circumvent the crafting overhead is no cheaper. I've been trying to keep up but it's hard to raid, farm, and maybe try some other aspects this game has to offer. I hate telling my friends I can't go run a heroic with them because I need time to farm stuff so I can pay for my consumables. In a learning week it's is no problem to go through 25 elixirs without blinking. I'm estatic we're at the point where I can worry about mana pots only since our Gruul's-lair clears, and kara clears are done with only "normal" consumable usage. Meaning: Some people will throw on an elixir or something, but overall noone is using anything beyond mana/health pots, but tank consumables are still, as always, sky high. Still holding out hope that Blizzard will address the necessity of a fully-potted tank. It's almost funny to hear on vent "sweet, we killed gruul completely unpotted" "Well, the we still had titans and crap on the MT" "Well....that doesn't count, you need that for everything."

EDIT 2: Commenting further on mana pots and health pots. The basic super mana potion or health potion, imo, should be available on a vendor besides the combat elixirs. It shouldn't even need a "zone token" like some have suggested. Leave the fel mana pots and such for alchemists, but I'd be thrilled to be able to go to a vendor and pick up pet food, ammo, and a couple stacks of mana pots. Say.......5g per stack? thats pretty fair, i'd think in relation to other vendor purchasables. I already accept the above (ammo, repair bills, pet food, non-mage food/water) as part of my day to day costs, it would be nice if plain old mana pots were on the same order.

Zyla · 04/12/07, 1:57 AM

Originally Posted by spronk

I'm 1 hop from a blizzard dev

and its not going to happen. The game is not designed by committee or suggestion box, the lead designers have some very strong philosophies and ideas that carry through the entire game.

The simple flaw in your idea is that it doesn't allow Blizzard to design end-level bosses (Kael, Vashj, BT wing bosses, etc) with consumables in mind. Yes, many are also skill based fights but many will also be farm-based (resist gear, consumables, itemization). No one is going to run a 25 man raid without a few priests, pallies, mages, druids, etc to give the baseline buffs so its kind of silly to say "well... flask is there in case you don't have a pally!". Flasks/elixirs should be there in case your players aren't 100% PVE spec, good, geared, and class-comp balanced.

I think people are way over-reacting to these changes. I saw a demo of 2.1.0 internal build earlier this week, SSC and TK are tuned to be a lot better. My WoW sub is currently cancelled because I have no desire to spend more time farming herbs than raiding, from what I saw I'll probably renew my sub when 2.1.0 hits. BT and Hyjal are beautifully done and definitely have more the Naxx style of raid design than the shit that is SSC (ok the bosses are decent but the trash is obnoxious). IMO this is really a good time to check out LOTRo free, have fun with its lore, etc and then come back to WoW in 1-2 months when 2.1 hits. I really have no idea why anyone would subjucate themselves to SSC right now other than perhaps some S&M rp guild.

I've read this post 4 times now and I can't decide towards which game your agenda leans, but it permeates this post and makes me distrust you. This post screams shill.

Even assuming that Hyjal and BT are the bee's knees, you forget that we will all have to struggle through SSC and TK to get to at least Hyjal. Stop telling us there's a light at the end of the tunnel. There should be no god-damned tunnel to begin with.

This game has been out for 2+ years now. The fact that every single instance they ever release has to be tuned and retuned after release smacks of borderline incompetence. I understand it is quite the undertaking to design and balance a raiding instance, but for christ's sake, this should not keep reoccurring over and over, especially given the long and documented recommendations of hundreds if not thousands of the most avid customers that seek nothing more then to help in the creation of their own fun. Resources are not a question for a company that makes millions of dollars a month in subscription fees.

Please don't feed us lines about how the developers have their own vision of the game and this is unbending or unyielding. There is instance after instance of reversals under intense public pressure, not to mention non-publicly triggered design flip-flops. Please show me those strong philosophies still at play from launch, because at this point, knowing what we know, the excitement of going further in the game is next to nil. This game is slowly turning into the very game it sought to redefine. Instead of the leveling treadmill, we have the raiding treadmill. Instead of simple, summon and go instances, we're back to overly demanding keying processes to simply enter places. We were promised clear and fun tradeskills to augment our playing, and now we're turning into the same kind of slog that crafting in EQ was. Virtually everything that was fun and unique and drew everyones interest is either being slowly bled out of the game, or replaced completely with old, outdated and unfun mechanics. The sole highlight in all of this is the Arena system, which has been a rousing success, but the model was already there from SC/War2/3, so there really was little original about the system.

When you can provoke white-hot rage from one of the most level-headed intellectual players in the game, you know something is terribly, terribly wrong. I don't think I'm out of place when I believe that guild morale virtually world wide is generally pretty low at this point. It doesn't have to be this way, and many of us miss the old feelings that this game used to give us. Perhaps they're just fated to be gone forever, perhaps not.

2 years is a very long time to consistently deliver content, and in many cases the game has been moments of absolute brilliance in the genre and in game design in general. Perhaps it is the fate of all giants to eventually rest on their laurels, I just remember when WoW had a chip on its shoulder and was trying to prove something to the rest of the gaming world. Now that it's become an institution onto itself, it almost seems like any decision that is made is made in an echo chamber where people reassure each other of what a good idea things can be.

Perhaps it is a failure in leadership, but if one looks at the design decisions of much of the last few months, one comes to the inescapable conclusion that there is no consistent design theory. One needs only to look on the ceaseless waffling on druid design to see a prime example of this.

"Is this fun" used to be the design creedo and marketing buzz phrase that drew so much interest in the game. You took the game and every single part of it and asked, "is this fun?' and if it wasn't, it was imperative to redesign the mechanics in a way that made it fun. Vanilla created a world where leveling and even making money and crafting never felt like chores.

So with that in mind, I wonder, if the company still has that design vision in their head, and still asks:

Is this fun?

Lamaros · 04/12/07, 2:06 AM

Originally Posted by spronk

I'm 1 hop from a blizzard dev

and its not going to happen. The game is not designed by committee or suggestion box, the lead designers have some very strong philosophies and ideas that carry through the entire game.

The simple flaw in your idea is that it doesn't allow Blizzard to design end-level bosses (Kael, Vashj, BT wing bosses, etc) with consumables in mind. Yes, many are also skill based fights but many will also be farm-based (resist gear, consumables, itemization). No one is going to run a 25 man raid without a few priests, pallies, mages, druids, etc to give the baseline buffs so its kind of silly to say "well... flask is there in case you don't have a pally!". Flasks/elixirs should be there in case your players aren't 100% PVE spec, good, geared, and class-comp balanced.

The lead designers have also shown a tendancy to be completely stupid on occasion.

Meetingstones? Fractured server communities by making factions unable to communicate with each other? Consumables? Rampant, joy destroying, consumables?

They have also demonstrated a strong desire to hold on to ideas far beyond the time they have been proved silly, damaging, or just pointless.

The basic premise of consumables is the problem. If using X is a notable gain then you must either tune around X and make it a requirement or tune around the absence of X and make the encounters trivial. Blizz is forced to tune around X because trivial does not a challenging and rewarding endgame make.

The suggesting (that you implied certain devs would dismiss out of hand) would solve this but making the risk v reward for a 25 man group marginal, and thus not necessary but instead optional. Yet at the same time outside raiding they would be just as powerful as they were previously. Surely it might have flaws when you put it's through its paces, but it's not an idea that deserves to be dismissed out of hand.

As for the person above; don't worry, level grinds will be back next expansion! It will be lots of fun rerolling once the level cap goes up again!

aarkh · 04/12/07, 2:22 AM

Originally Posted by Zyla

Stuff

Good post, sums up pretty well how I feel. The sad thing is watching a game with so much potential be marred.

Having been detached from raiding for a while, I don't know whether to laugh or cry at people's reactions sometimes. There was a time when the idea of flasking whole raids would've been thought simply absurd. Now that we'll "only" be required to do that, I see cheering of all things.

So far the sweeping consumable changes are going to save a raiding healer a mageblood elixir and an elixir of healing power per try, totalling 16 mana / 5 and 50 healing. That still leaves a flask, manapots, dark runes(why are these even usable on 70?), mana oils, food and booze buffs to worry about and a gain of about 250 mana / 5s from consumables. Not quite the sweeping change I'd have wanted to see, so far.

It'll actually be interesting to see what happens to the server economy. I expect to see the amount of people using flasks rise as people who formerly sticked to using elixirs will be turning to flask users. Mana thistle seems to be going at an affordable price of 100g per stack atm on my server, can't wait to see how it'll be a couple months from now.

Robespierre · 04/12/07, 2:39 AM

The sheer amount of gathering that will most likely be required for guilds to progress come 2.1, coupled with limited resources, may make things miserable for those people willing to give the new changes a chance.

Being on a low population server has spared me from quite a bit of competition when I need to gather materials for elixirs, potions and flasks on my alchemist alternate. When the limited amount of herbs that exist are being fought over and even mundane herbs are wanted because of a chance at a fel lotus I think that that may be a cap in how many guilds can actually survive on a server doing the more difficult content.

Grogzor · 04/12/07, 2:45 AM

Originally Posted by Robespierre

The sheer amount of gathering that will most likely be required for guilds to progress come 2.1, coupled with limited resources, may make things miserable for those people willing to give the new changes a chance.

Being on a low population server has spared me from quite a bit of competition when I need to gather materials for elixirs, potions and flasks on my alchemist alternate. When the limited amount of herbs that exist are being fought over and even mundane herbs are wanted because of a chance at a fel lotus I think that that may be a cap in how many guilds can actually survive on a server doing the more difficult content.

See, you get to a problem here. Large population servers, more people will be farming the herbs. Lower population servers, less people will be farming the herbs.

On one hand, you can either get really expensive herbs due to large demand and you have a hard time being able to farm them.

On the other hand, if you aren't an herbalist on a low pop, herbs will be expensive due to lack of people farming them.

Sigh...a single profession required to raid an end game does not make.

sovelis41 · 04/12/07, 2:51 AM

I don't think I'm out of place when I believe that guild morale virtually world wide is generally pretty low at this point.

For guilds that are behind the curve slightly like mine (working on magtheridon and getting people their SSC keys), our morale is fine since we're not beating our faces against insane content in SSC/TK25, hats off to you folks at the level and dealing with it. But.......that in no way makes it right at all. It's only a matter of time before an even larger number of guilds get into SSC and see what everyone is really up in arms over. The only relief in sight is 2.1 going to the PTR and players being able to test and give feedback. The longer the gap between now and that happening the more turnover will occur in top end guilds.

EDIT: Just saw a commerical (investment firm i think) that shows 2 peope inspecting a dam. One of the inspectors notices a small but noticeable leak and plugs it with the gum he is chewing. "That oughta do it." Thought it could have easily been followed by WoW Patch 2.1: Coming Soon.

Exewut · 04/12/07, 2:51 AM

Originally Posted by hubar

Based on the similar logic, we can make statement like "Blacksmith is stupid, because how come you can make mooncleaver and I can only skin heavy leather"?

Don't we want "fairness"?

Sure the few leatherworkers that are still around want that. I direct you to the first part of this threat. But the truth is that there are almoust no lw around that still care enough to post/complain/get there profession fixed.

[e] Not complaining about 300->350 skill (the ilvl 95 lw epics), I'm complaining about the uselessness of lvl'ing your lw from 350->375 which requires a huge cost and has zero rewards (in fact all my 350+ skilling has been living dragonscale helmet's and some other epic recipes I got 'lucky' enough to find in ah for absurd prices)

koaschten · 04/12/07, 2:54 AM

I am fine, i made a fortune out of crafting "living dragonscale helmet" :X
i like the drums concept. but we get offtopic here...only thing that sucks is the primalstrike set.

Django · 04/12/07, 4:01 AM

I'm sorry if i overlooked some post already quoting this but by scanning the last three thread-pages I didn't see anything regarding the following official post.

LINK

Here one major clarification took place which imho is very very essential for the ongoing discussion about consumables stacking:

Originally Posted by Nethaera

Flasks will work in this new system by taking up both the offensive and defensive elixir slots. We of course recognize this as a reduction of total effect of flasks, but as mentioned we will be balancing to take into account the use of a single flask on each player in an encounter.

This, in my eyes, is just awesome and really really reduces the strain on farming. For new encounters or really really DPS-strong Bosses you get your flask. For "not so easy Farm-Bosses" you use your elixiers. Or maybe you use a Flask for a bunch of Farm-Bosses in a row.

Let's just hope the other changes mentioned will be realized in 2.1.0 as well and not be postponed to 2.1.1, namely

Originally Posted by Nethaera

In turn this change allows us to design and balance encounters around it, keeping the difficulty in line with a clearer limitation of what each group member has at their disposal.

Anedris · 04/12/07, 4:10 AM

I believe we saw that clarification. And the resounding cry was - why should we have to farm one flask per two hours of raiding? In what possible permutation of logic is this "fun"? Is one flask better than one flask + elixirs? Yes. Have I heard a convincing argument as to why that flask should be there? Nope.

Scrap non-reactive consumables. If they can't figure that out then scrap all consumables in raid zones. And if that's too complicated then scrap alchemy altogether. I'm an alchemist/herbalist. I won't cry. Trust me.

(Yes, there are better options then scrapping alchemy, and many of them have been mentioned already. But if it's a choice between scrapping alchemy and the proposed 2.1 situation of "Oh, you just need one flask each" I won't hesitate for a second.)

On a more cheerful note, maybe they'll tune SSC down to the Gruul/Mag level of no consumables beyond the tank required? We're certainly not going to be going near the place until they do...

Rawis · 04/12/07, 4:35 AM

Originally Posted by Django

This, in my eyes, is just awesome and really really reduces the strain on farming. For new encounters or really really DPS-strong Bosses you get your flask. For "not so easy Farm-Bosses" you use your elixiers. Or maybe you use a Flask for a bunch of Farm-Bosses in a row.

How, exactly, can you call this awesome?

You are still forced to farm loads of herbs for every single raiding night. If you read closely the Blizzard quote you posted, you will see it states "We will be balancing to take into account the use of a single flask on each player in an encounter". This Flask will be there even after the boss is on farm, unless the gear is being buffed A LOT.

Also now that you're "expected" to have 2 Flasks for every raiding night, Mana Thistle/Fel Lotus will skyrocket to incredible prices. People will still have to farm nearly/exactly the same amount (in time) than before this "change", because there will be more people herbing the few nodes.

I can't understand how people think it's "ok" to be forced to Flask for every single boss encounter? Is there really so few people who remember when Flasking your MT was the only consumable needed?

As an Alchemist/Herbalist, I say remove the damn profession from the game, or at least make Flasks/Elixirs unusable in raids.

Definitely with Quigon on this one.

suicuique · 04/12/07, 4:48 AM

Originally Posted by Fujigato

As a game developer I learned quickly--you can't beat the powergamer. It's an impossible dream that results in a game that is generally inaccessible to the majority of players. Once Blizzard embraces that, fun will return.

Quoted because this is the truth.
They should just stop balancing around cutting edge guilds.
Stop balancing around a full potted raid.
If some do it ... great ... more power (and time ) to them.
But dont assume its necessary.

Retune the encounters ... not the consumables.

xavier · 04/12/07, 4:52 AM

one thing that wont change is the fact casters still need to pay a gazzillion for dreamfoils, admittedly little less with only flask or elixir rather than both. But still to much.

Melee still gonna figth over terecone.

And alot of other herbs/pots will be left useless since noone would ever use them again.

This is in my eyes not a fix but merely a cosmetic change which is gonna make certain herbs even more expensive or mass farmed.

need i say dreamfoil, terecone?

Mearis · 04/12/07, 5:00 AM

This will raise the market for terocone, mana thistle, nightmare vine, dreamfoil, fel lotus and kill everything else. I also loved the comment about assuming every raid is balanced for a flask per person for progression content. Assuming a flask costs around 100 gold, that's around 1 hour of farming per 2 hours of raiding they expect us to do.

Does anyone genuinly find this acceptable?

Elsia · 04/12/07, 5:03 AM

Really I see the vast majority of posts everywhere asking for alchemy to be severely limited Basically I'd say that alchemy should be in line in day to day utility as any other profession. It isn't. People are right that the proposed changes don't address the problem at all because if tuned that way we still look at 3 high end pots and off-consumables for everybody. What people say is, and what the game provided until mid-Naxx, was an occasional pot here or there while learning/early farming is about right.

If someone above is right and the design philosophy is that "alchemy" checks are part of boss designs now, then clearly there is a disconnect between what I hear the vast majority of raiders find acceptable and what the game designers want.

TBH if Blizz announced a change that usually what we get. The only immediate reversal I can remember (correct me if I missed some) was the recent pala upset.

There are many good ways to fix alchemy. Make some pots BoP (every other crafting profession has this). Give flasks a chance of failing and causing negative side-effects (ala engineering goodies). Tune most encounters to be beatable without pots and with sensible amounts of regen pots. Protection or special function pot encounter designs are fine if they are the rare exception not the norm, best they can be grown out of by gearing. Make sure that no encounter ever needs BoP pots.

Remove some i.win pots like limited invulnerability pots or lower the encounters where such pots are needed to make the situation viable. Make all pots that stack on the same stat or function (spell crit/int, AP/AGI/STR, AGI/crit, SPI/MP5, AGI/Armor/dogde etc) not stack. Overall cap the total gain of consumables to roughly 0.5 to 1.5 tier levels of gear, best not exceeding 1 tier of upgrades (guarantees gear substitution with progression). Only sensible exception I can see is stamina through food.

I think we'd get an alchemy profession that's more in line with other professions that way.

Beside repair bots nothing an engineer can do is honestly useful for raiding. Why is there one single profession that's allowed to dominate the raiding game really? Makes no sense and if that's the design philosophy it's pretty broken.

Elsia · 04/12/07, 5:23 AM

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...sid=1&pageNo=1

Hmm actually the change of player buff stacking is interesting. Maybe this does mean that one finally gets another handle on the chain mana regen potting issue by potting int heavily.

Mearis · 04/12/07, 5:31 AM

Originally Posted by Elsia

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...sid=1&pageNo=1

Hmm actually the change of player buff stacking is interesting. Maybe this does mean that one finally gets another handle on the chain mana regen potting issue by potting int heavily.

Absolutely not.

Intellect is a completely trivial stat, and the amount of mana it adds is only relevant at the start of a fight, or as a multiplier for ability that scale with int (shamans / paladins with crit, etc).

The initial size of a mana pool is usually a very small fraction of the mana that one ends up using on a raid, buffing the initial size won't allow you to not use mana potions unless the content is trivial to begin with.

Dakous · 04/12/07, 5:32 AM

I must be stupid, I just wanted to zone in and slay the dragon.

I use Elixir of Major Agility twice per week, presently. One is on Aran, because it's the one time I get to DPS so I enjoy the little race. It's entirely optional, though. The other, that I don't consider optional (but it probably is) is Prince Malchezaar.

I mail every single mana potion I find to a guild healer (whoever I feel has gotten the least potion love from me recently). With a 2 tank/3 healer/5 dps breakdown in Karazhan, if everyone is doing that, the chain chugging isn't terrible. 5 minute cooldown and we'd probably break even or have a profit, at that.

Could Blizzard please post a sign outside instances they're going to tune like a-- - I mean, to require more than that - so I know to never take my guild there? If Blizzard is afraid of us getting bored and quitting WoW for want of content because it's exactly after Karazhan, maybe they should recognize Terokkar Forest is significantly before Karazhan. We do, and I can't even stand leveling there.

Like others have said, the arena system is vastly more appealing. My 5's team should be called "Ten Losses A Week," and hey, for an hour and a half of "effort" a month (less then we put in a night in PVE), we're going to get our epic chestpieces before the guild does. All five of us. We never need to get better, we never need to get lucky (yay for second ever priest/druid/warrior token drop...) we never need to farm herbs... heck, if I had a sufficently heavy dipping bird thing, I wouldn't even need to BE THERE to get my sweet epics.

And that's what it's all about, isn't it? The phat purpz. I mean, you've never met someone in real life, and gone, "Wow dude you play WoW too? Do you raid? Wow sweet! How far are you? Having trouble with ThatGuy? Have you tried ThisThing?" ... for values of ThisThing being, "LoS healers away from Chromaggus" versus "Farm Terokkar for a hundred herbs... every night."

Is This Fun?

Goreshot · 04/12/07, 5:38 AM

The bird drippy thing reminds me of Alterac Valley. Remeber when the best way to get AV rep was to sit in the mines with your buddies and chat? Or Alt+Tab back in every 4 minutes and jump or move around a bit?

Blizzard finally learned from that mistake by making rep more attached to actively doing stuff (i.e. killing).

Analogy much?