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04/12/07, 11:12 AM
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#661
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King Hippo
Draenei Shaman
Emerald Dream (EU)
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Originally Posted by Hozz
I doubt they intended for the PVE end game to suck so badly and I doubt they anticipated the degree of success the Arena would have.
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I don't think the arena is such a big success at all. I think they had anticipated a higher popularity. From seeing the same few people at the arena masters and seeing hordes of people at the 5 man stones and outside Karazhan, my guess that arena is something very few focus on as their primary avenue of play and for most it's just something they do to entertain them a bit beside pve or something done entirely to get better items for pve. If the current itemization situation is due to pvp balance I think they missed the mark completely. My experience is that the vast majority of wow players are pve focused and do a bit of pvp on the side. The amount of pve vs pvp content also point to that. The weird itemization could have other reasons, but I just cannot grasp why anyone who do it if not for pvp balance.
I think after 2.1 we will see a massive nerf of SSC and TK25. Why? Because the introduction of a limited number of vials from Vashj and (presumably) Kael creates the progression mechanism which itemization previously held (ie you need to farm an instance for X time before being able to venture onto the next one). I think the only reason SSC and TK25 are tuned so high in difficulty is because they simply don't have any more content, and making them easier would expose just how unfinished the pve end game in TBC is. 2.1 will rectify this, and I think we'll have a fantastic endgame once they retune and polish it - and hopefully fix itemization. The potential is certainly there. I think everything we see now stems from these 2 issues - an unfinished end-game and broken itemizations. Even the consumables issue would be minor if these 2 problems did not exist.
Fixing the consumable issue right now - by (just to be extreme) removing alchemy would do nothing but increase resource consumption which would expose the unfinishedness of the endgame. What if it wasn't a handful of guilds on Vashj seeing her bugginess but instead hundreds of guilds? Blizz doesn't want that situation, so they simply cannot fix consumables till they finish the endgame with Hyjal and BT1 and 2.
All this annoys me - cause I think there's so much potential in wow for a fantastic endgame. imho, they should just have had a big "under construction" sign on SSC and TK25 at launch, and made sure Gruul and Mag were properly tuned. Yes, guilds would have run out of content, but that's not very different from right now.
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04/12/07, 11:16 AM
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#662
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Piston Honda
Murloc Warlock
Defias Brotherhood (EU)
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Blizzard has quite a few options open to it at the moment, regarding professions/farming/raid content in general.
a) they can do nothing. Pretty easy. It's unlikely that people who burnout from farming will put too large a dent in their pockets, certainly in the short term - and WoW only needs to last a few more years before its technology becomes redundant and needs a huge rewrite anyhow. Immune-to-X mobs are generally immune because logic/flavour demands that they be - sadly flavour is no replacement for fun.
b) they can do almost nothing, and pretend to do something. This keeps the wolves from the gates, gives them time to make small changes and then they can spend a few months analysing what knock-on effects their changes have. I think that's what they've gone for.
c) they could make some interesting content. What if there were repeatable instance-type quests where you could heal mobs to complete the quest (like the Benediction quest) or tank up mobs with NPCs healing you, and doing this gave you some money? Not much, but enough to be competitive with a hunter grinding mobs. Enough to cover the repair bills. This would require a lot of work, a lot of balancing. It would remove the need to respec and pay money to earn money, but I don't hold up much hope for this. Although I would dearly love a raid encounter where the mob was damaged by heals and put a debuff on people that meant they could only be healed by damage (I'd love to try healing in a raid, don't want to level a healer). Gimmicky but adds variety.
d) they could remove respec costs totally. I imagine they're there to be a gold sink, but given how many people seem to have to buy gold anyway - why have it? Why put in a gold sink? Make epics more expensive to repair, or something, but given most people need a different set of gear for each spec anyhow, and will be suboptimal for their non-primary specs - I simply can't understand why (if 'fun' is Blizzard's primary motivation) they won't do this.
e) they could remove consummables totally. I have never understood why drinking a potion equates to fun. I don't like using consummables - perhaps because I'm a hoarder - but I resent the idea that at some point I'll need to pay hundreds of gold a week simply to raid new content. It's stupid. It's not fun. I'd be upset if Tailoring were removed from the game, after spending hundreds of hours grinding tailoring sets for two characters - but I could cope, and happily, if it meant that Alchemy got completely removed from the game too. I spent less time playing my raiding character in EverQuest and grinding AAs (and I had well over a hundred) than I have my WoW character farming crafting materials, and this is before I've had to grind for money to buy potions/level up a character with Herbalism.
If they need a cash sink, to ensure that economies don't suffer from hyper-inflation, it should be easy to put one in that doesn't enforce "extra" grinding, simply uses up what you have spare. For example, make a heroic key a one-use item. Make it cost 100g, 500g, even 1000g to complete the SSC or TK attunements. One-off payments that will drain cash but that will not enforce farming every spare minute of a raider's life.
Somewhere I think Blizzard lost the willingness/bravery to upset the status quo and think back to their original "Will This Be Fun?" model that was mentioned in the interview with one of their designers. I think they're scared that people will 'beat the game' and quit, if they don't add all these huge artificial time sinks. Maybe they're right - maybe Nihilum and Death and Taxes would quit if they beat all of the raid content and there was nothing new in the offing. But fights tuned to be really hard with no consummables in existence would surely be i) better tuned and ii) hard enough to keep all but the most dedicated raiders busy until a new content patch.
As for the new professions - screw you, Blizzard. Everyone should have to go through the pain of levelling fishing that I went to. On an overpopulated server, fishing pools for Motes of Water is one of the few ways to get something to sell. Never mind that since the Elemental Plateau nerf there is one hunter per two fire elemental spawn points, and three shadow priests/warlocks farming the fishing area most of the day.
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04/12/07, 11:18 AM
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#663
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Huntard Extraordinaire
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Originally Posted by Hozz
I cant say I disagree with your explanation of the rationale behind the pacing of PvP and PvE, I dont have a better explanation. Although I would be surprised if Blizzard had an actual thought process behind the current situation. I doubt they intended for the PVE end game to suck so badly and I doubt they anticipated the degree of success the Arena would have.
For me, right now, raiding just is not a lot of fun. Its too much work for too little reward. Karazhan was pretty good, the rewards are about right if you evaluate them in the context of what 40 people were pulling out of Naxx. But loot rewards aside, seeing as how raid content progressed from Naxx to Karazhan and then to 25 man, as a guild leader/officer, I dont appreciate that at all. 40 to 10 to 25. Very painful for a guild. Not fun.
Arena is pretty awesome comparitively. Its very well paced. The rewards are there for everyone, eventually. And its fun, which is kind of the point. The only downside that I see to the Arena is that certain classes/builds are so much more effective than others. Obviously something has to be 'the best' but right now those gaps seem too wide, especially coupled with the ridiculous respec penalty.
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If Blizzard is so worried about Content and people rushing through it...Why the hell are they releasing the Black Temple when very very few guilds are EVEN in the Eye? It doesnt make sense, release a Dungeon early (Probably because its the only content they have done and they want this patch to seem Big) but then they turn around and say, "We will be requiring you to flask to prevent you from running out of content too quickly."
Its completely asinine.

Originally Posted by Valdamir
This thread has become a discussion on Alchemy, but to return to an earlier topic within the thread...
At first I thought it was a great idea to remove skinning and make leather just drop from currently skinable mobs much like cloth does from humanoids. But after thinking about it some ... perhaps that is exactly the opposite of what needs to be done. Could it be the issue isn't that Leatherworking essentially requires Skinning. Maybe the issue is Tailoring is the only crafting profession which doesn't essentially require a gathering profession (well, enchanting and first aid don't require a gathering profession, but let's ignore them).
It seems somewhat inconsistent that all my toons can collect material for my tailor, but not for my blacksmith, jeweler, engineer, alchemist. and leatherworker. I guess "breaking" tailoring material gathering won't fix skinning, but it was an interesting insight I hadn't considered before. So, on second thought, just roll skinning into LWing. That way I can get another profession on my Hunter... 
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Ok, I understand the Theory of the Conservation of Happiness (There exists only a limited amount of happiness so for me to become happy, I must steal some of yours), But Nerfing Tailoring will not make Leatherworking a better profession.
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04/12/07, 11:37 AM
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#664
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Glass Joe
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LW/Skinning
Originally Posted by Grogzor
Ok, I understand the Theory of the Conservation of Happiness (There exists only a limited amount of happiness so for me to become happy, I must steal some of yours), But Nerfing Tailoring will not make Leatherworking a better profession.
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Well, I did admit that breaking material gathering for tailoring would not fix skinning...
"Ignorance is bliss." I was blissfully ignorant about how bad skinning was, simply because I hadn't paused to think about it. Leatherworking isn't much better but not the total waste skinning is. Now that this thread shattered my ignorance it's pretty clear I need to drop skinning and pick up something more useful. I'd prefer a fix to make both professions more useful, but frankly -- I can't imagine anything that would fix skinning to the point of making it worth keeping. The best thing they could do would be make it so that skinning lvl 70 mobs gave multiple leathers. But if they do that, the price on leather will drop through the floor so there still won't be any reason to be a skinner..
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04/12/07, 11:39 AM
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#665
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Piston Honda
Undead Warrior
Argent Dawn (EU)
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Originally Posted by Valdamir
It seems somewhat inconsistent that all my toons can collect material for my tailor, but not for my blacksmith, jeweler, engineer, alchemist. and leatherworker. I guess "breaking" tailoring material gathering won't fix skinning, but it was an interesting insight I hadn't considered before.
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This is why so many casters feel railroaded into tailoring/enchanting. If tailoring had a gathering skill (eg. weaving) then they'd have to choose. Although the way tailoring is now, it'd be a cert still.
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04/12/07, 11:40 AM
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#666
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King Hippo
Orc Shaman
Blackrock (EU)
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Differentiating between gathering and crafting professsions was a bad call from the beginning on imho. They should have tacked mining and skinning on BS/Ing - LW instead like they did with enchanting and disenchanting. Of course most folks then would elect to take herbalism/alchemy as one profession, given its usefullness and universal appeal. But it's much too late to change this now.
When chosing the professions for my second rogue I rerolled just before BC I agonized about what crafting profession would be perfect (I went mining/enchanting for cash) but at the end neither blacksmithing nor leatherworking held much appeal for me. Had I known that I would reroll 3 months later again, I would have gone alchemy/herb for sure, the only thing that prevents me from doing it now is the fact that my enchanting spellbook is already pretty full.
Pretty much the same happened when I rerolled to warrior, in the end I choose hammersmith because of the coolness of Thunder/Deep Thunder (though I probably won't use it much, beeing one of the few tanks left) but not because I felt it would give me an edge on the long run.
I sincerely hope that all crafting professions (well except for tailoring which looks fine if not overpowered at the moment) get more interesting stuff in terms of upgradeble BOP stuff in order to lend them a long term perspective.
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04/12/07, 11:40 AM
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#667
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Huntard Extraordinaire
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Originally Posted by Valdamir
Well, I did admit that breaking material gathering for tailoring would not fix skinning...
"Ignorance is bliss." I was blissfully ignorant about how bad skinning was, simply because I hadn't paused to think about it. Leatherworking isn't much better but not the total waste skinning is. Now that this thread shattered my ignorance it's pretty clear I need to drop skinning and pick up something more useful. I'd prefer a fix to make both professions more useful, but frankly -- I can't imagine anything that would fix skinning to the point of making it worth keeping. The best thing they could do would be make it so that skinning lvl 70 mobs gave multiple leathers. But if they do that, the price on leather will drop through the floor so there still won't be any reason to be a skinner..
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IMO, the one fix for Skinning they could have done is make a random blue drop from 1/50-75 skins or something that is required for a few other professions to make some of their good gear. Basically, it would be Leatherworkings version of Primal Might or Korium.
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04/12/07, 11:57 AM
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#668
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POWER = MEAT + OPPORTUNITY = BATTLEWORMS
ChickenArise
Night Elf Warlock
No WoW Account
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Originally Posted by Christmas
c) they could make some interesting content. What if there were repeatable instance-type quests where you could heal mobs to complete the quest (like the Benediction quest) or tank up mobs with NPCs healing you, and doing this gave you some money? Not much, but enough to be competitive with a hunter grinding mobs. Enough to cover the repair bills. This would require a lot of work, a lot of balancing.
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Bombing runs with various conditions set on them could provide an elegant solution here, and they don't need to be tailored per-class.
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See you, auntie.
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04/12/07, 11:58 AM
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#669
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Bald Bull
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Originally Posted by Grogzor
If Blizzard is so worried about Content and people rushing through it...Why the hell are they releasing the Black Temple when very very few guilds are EVEN in the Eye?
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Change that to SSC and you have an even more accurate picture of the raiding scene. We are now closing in on 3 months of TBC raiding and Vashj still hasn't been killed in a legit manner, and not by any fault of the top guilds. When is 2.1 coming out? May? JUNE?
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04/12/07, 12:02 PM
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#670
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Piston Honda
Draenei Shaman
Kel'Thuzad
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I don't think anyone's posted it yet, and it doesn't really relate to the current consumable discussion going on in this thread, but it pertains to the initial thread topic nonetheless. Delete if someone else has posted it, skimmed through the last pages of posts and didn't find anything, so my apologies if I didn't catch it - anyway, Euro CM's posted some additional info a few hours ago:
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread....75607940&sid=1
* Jewelcrafting: The cooldown times on Earthstorm and Skyfire Diamond transmutes have been reduced to one day.
* Herbalism: The chances to find a Fel Lotus while picking an herb have been increased.
* Tailoring: The Spellfire and Shadoweave tunics have been changed to robes.
* Primal Nethers may now be puchased from G'eras for Badges of Justice.
These changes will take place in the next patch, 2.1.0.
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The BoJ->Nether "exchange rate" is at 4:1, according to worldofraids, and responses in that thread.
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04/12/07, 12:08 PM
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#671
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King Hippo
Blood Elf Death Knight
Mazrigos (EU)
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Originally Posted by Lord BEEF
If you run a 5v5 team and your rating gets as low as 1300 (pretty godawful), you're still getting more arena points than a 2v2 team that's at 1500. In fact I think you can go much lower too
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Does that really matter? It's trivial to get a rating in the 1800s in 2on2, regardless of your setup.
If you really are so bad that forming a new 5on5 team and losing 10 times would get you more arena points than your real 2on2 team, you don't get that many points either way
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04/12/07, 12:11 PM
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#672
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Don Flamenco
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Oh my. Sell your nethers now!
Edit: just realized if Nethers stay at 150-200g per (on my server at least) then the FR set is going to be very, very costly.
Even at 100g per Nether, 100 badges is worth 2,500 gold.
Last edited by Maels : 04/12/07 at 12:25 PM.
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04/12/07, 12:11 PM
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#673
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Blizzard
Tigole
Gnome Shaman
Non-US/EU Server
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Too soon?
Some of you are jumping to pretty drastic conclusions here. The community team posted a tradeskill "PREVIEW". They did not post the entire patch notes. The changes listed are by no means the extent of the changes going into the patch. They are a mere preview of *SOME* of the changes to come.
I'm working with them to release more information or to refrain from posting future previews that cause this kind of uproar and confusion.
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04/12/07, 12:15 PM
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#674
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Don Flamenco
Draenei Shaman
Tichondrius
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Originally Posted by Tigole
Some of you are jumping to pretty drastic conclusions here. The community team posted a tradeskill "PREVIEW". They did not post the entire patch notes. The changes listed are by no means the extent of the changes going into the patch. They are a mere preview of *SOME* of the changes to come.
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What is the meaning of this intrusion?
Previews in the past have been The Big And Exciting Thing You Were Waiting For, so this one... made people freak out, understandably.
As long as there's more alchemy nerfs coming down the pipe....
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04/12/07, 12:16 PM
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#675
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Super Macho Man
<>
Orc Shaman
No WoW Account
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Not to be mean, Tigole, but apparently we gave you guys too much credit: we assumed you would have thought through the release to the point where anything *not* released would be relatively minor, and that if major points remained unsettled, you'd refrain from posting much of anything.
And goddamnit get them to allow spec switches for tailoring without requiring releveling.
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Melador> Incidentally, these last few pages are why people hate lawyers.
Viator> I really don't want to go all Kalman here.
Bury> Just imagine what the world would be like if you used your powers for good.
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