Maybe. But if encounters are also retuned this might not be an issue. If you dont need potion/elixer XXX will you use it? Sure it will help to simplify some stuff but I doubt it would be used as massively as now if there was the clear impression that it was basically not needed. I dont know anybody who loves to farm all the consumables or spend his gold for it. Would this simplify the game too much? Depends, BWL would undoubtedly have been much easier if guilds potted up like they do now.There were enough options for it in wow classic. They didnt, it wasnt needed.

But then again if this is the reason behind the idd minor adjustements to consumbales Blizz suddenly would show more insight in the psychology of players than they have shown until now in TBC.

Lineth:

Alot of Naxx was completly doable without anyone (perhaps throw the MT a titans) touching a potion. (we only got 11 bosses. I realise Gothik, 4H, Saph and KT was different. But 11 bosses down was still far far longer in naxx then ~98% of wows population).

Anub, Faerlina, Instructor, Heigan, Gluth, Grobbulus, Maexxna... We did all our first kills without anyone but the MT flasked and potted.

The ONLY fight where we used flasks on anyone else then the MT was Patchwerk the first few times. (Oh, and Loapot. But we never flasked for it... Worldbuffs + DPS-pots)

Noth, Thaddius, PW (Dps and healers), all went with normal DPS-potions, and nothing excessive. And we phased out the use of pots.



Now, even with that VERY low consumeable use (compared to now), was Naxx a pushover? Some might argue, but i mean for the broad public? I've seen number where 5% or so of wow-players saw Naxx.

I know atleast my guild had loads and loads of fun making our way thrue it at about 1 new boss down a week. Never using extreme flasking, never using extreme potting.

Encounters does NOT NEED TO BE BALANCED AROUND THE USE OF EXCESSIVE CONSUMEABLE USE!
Yes, the "hardcore" will farm, pot up and do it easier... So what? I know for a 100% fact that my guild would rather progress a bit slower, with more or less no need to farm.

If the option exists content has to be balanced against a raid using it. If not then content will be trivial with excessive potion use which doesnt alleviate the consumables grind for anyone but the best of the best who can already do everything without consumables. Everyone else will mass flask/mass pot in order to kill a boss they otherwise wouldnt be able to kill.

You compare with BWL and people not potting because it wasnt needed and thats wrong.
People didnt pot because they didnt think about it.

On new servers people most assuredly potted their way through MC and BWL so that they could reach Naxx faster for quicker gear progression. As long as potting allows you to progress through content you dont have gear/skill for we are going to keep seeing mass consumables, it doesnt matter if its low end or high end content.

The cat is out of the bag and there is no way to put it back in.

No? the majority of Naxx was tuned without using them, as was AQ, they meerly helped if you couldnt do it normally.

We flasked for our first C'Thuns (titans) because we lacked experience and made alot of small mistakes that would otherwise simply kill people and wipe us, it didn't make the encounter 'simple' nor did it mean we could sit through the normal mechanics of the encounter and ignore them.

If people use full potions when its not 'needed' then its either because the 'risk' is too high to get by without them (aka needed) or for epeen matters on the DM.

The problem isn't the flasking, it's the fact that raid gear is scaling like shit right now compared to consumables. What did a mage gain from going from tier 1 to tier 2? Hit%, crit% and about 70 damage. What does a mage gain from going from tier 4 to tier 5? 20 damage. It used to be that actually getting gear from a boss would help you kill them easier. A month or two of farming made more of a difference than consumables did in terms of adding to the sheer power of the raid.


The way gear is progressing now, it'll take someone decked in full tier 12 to match somebody in their tier 4 set with full consumables.

While these changes are very welcome, I hope other changes are being considered:

Enchant Boots - Dexterity only drops from Raging Skeletons in Auchenai Crypts. Six mobs per clear with a very low drop rate.

The materials needed for Enchant Weapon - Sunfire are ridiculous for the slight gain over Enchant Weapon - Major Spellpower. At least Enchant Weapon - Soulfrost requires Primal Shadow instead of Primal Might and provides more spell damage than Sunfire. Adding crit rating to Sunfire to make it attractive for the price would be a welcome addition.

Healing bonuses typically follow a formula of 2x spell damage (bracer enchant: 15 dmg or 30 heal, TBC Weapon: 40 dmg or 81 heal, Azerothian Weapon: 30 dmg or 55 heal, Gloves: 20 dmg or 35 heal). While not specific to enchants, given the amount of health gain in TBC healing enchants need a higher bonus. The time to break away from the 2x spell dmg = healing bonus formula is past due.

Bugs: Void Sphere is skill 350, but it requires a rod that takes 360 skill to create. By the time you can create it, the combine is grey. Same with Prismatic Sphere (325) and the Runed Adamantite Rod (350).

That depends on how you define "tuned".
Was most of naxx "doable" without major consumables usage? Yes.
Was naxx balanced with consumables in mind? Most certainly yes.

You do however manage to miss the point which is that it in very many cases is possible to "outpot" a fight (unless it is tuned with towards massive consumables) that you lack the skill or gear to handle.

This is broken, not because you are able to do without pots but because there are those who arent.

Pushed to its limit the group that are able to do it without pots becomes smaller and smaller until it dissapears which accentuates the problem. But the disparity between the group who can and the group who cant shouldnt be there because consumables are to powerful. I cannot fathom how people can still argue against this blatantly obvious statement.

Brissa:

"Didn't think of using consumeables"... So... We used dps consumeabels on Rag (atleast we did when we first downed him), we used it on Vael, we used it on Twins, we used it on C'Thun.

We did NOT use them for Raz, Broodlord, Chrommagus, Ouro, Sartura and the others cause we didnt deem it necessary. There was no enrage timer, no DPS-requirement. The only requirement was killing the boss before the healers mana was gone. Some fights did have DPS-reqs, but not so high that potting was necessary for a decently geared guild. (Barring everyone performed right).

When Naxx came we (I'm refering to my guild, but i assume others have the same experience) used it on VERY few encounters (As i stated above we only downed 11 bosses. But up til that point consumeables wasnt that big of a deal). And we were perfectly happy... So what Nihilum potted the shit out of their raids and was 1-2 months ahead? We didn't care.

Naxx is, once again, the perfect example. Except for a few fights you could do everything more or less without DPS-pots... Guilds could have good solid progression WITHOUT farming potions everyday.
Do you see EJ, Nihilum, DnT or anyone else whining that Naxx was too easy with potions? That it was a pushover and no fun?
They potted and got it done quicker. Alot of us didnt and it took us more time (Ofc they spent more time, but i'm hoping your getting my drift). We were happy, they were happy.

That Blizzard NEEDS to design encounters based on a full flasked + potted raids, just cause it's possible, is bullshit.

POSSIBLY the end-encounters in zones... I don't mind Sapphiron and KT beeing consumeables heavy. I wouldnt mind Lady Vash, or TK's final boss (name escapes me for the moment) beeing heavy... I DO MIND Hydross, Magtheridon (to some extent depending on raidgroup) and alike requiring insane amounts of pots to beat for a new guild.

Let the bleeding edge guilds mow thrue this content if they nerf it and let the majority of RAIDING GUILDS enjoy it without the need of spending the same amount inraid as out of raid farming.

Blizzard said it raised the bar on Naxx, most people would be undergeared for it and very few would even see KT, their thought was that most of it was a gear check which people would get from just raiding the instance to get the gear they needed.

Note all the strong upgrades you had, 65 DPS weapons, min/maxed gear etc, you could and did end up meeting the gear checks from simply getting the correct level of gear (Upper AQ/Naxx) to fight them with.

The only real exception is Loatheb & Sapph, and well granted the tank thing was pretty much the only point which sticked where consumables were alot more 'required', but that had been starting from long ago.

What exactly is it your trying to argue (apart from being cool and doing most fights unpotted)?

First you go say that potting is cool and not a problem
Then potting isnt needed.
Then it sucks because you have to pot.

YES, any encounter that has any reliance on things like HP, DPS, HPS and Healer lastability needs to be tuned keeping consumables in mind because otherwise that part is trivialized by consumables. You apparently disagree but I cant really see any good arguments as to why (apart from possibly that its completely ok that aspects of encounters are trivialized by pots and here we most certainly disagree).

I'm not entirely certain, but I don't think there are many (if any) guilds that did, say, Patchwerk without at least their tanks and most likely their healers potting up as well.

If some guilds did, I congratulate them, but for most guilds I know of Patchwerk was the first real 'consumable plunge'. (Maexxna also tended be a bit on the tanks, but less so)