I believe you're underestimating what Blizzard is capable of doing. You substitute what you wrote with "everyone in the raid needs epic FrR or you fail" fight and you've pretty much described Saph. Thinking back to our Saph kills, I believe everyone wore at least one piece of epic FrR gear. The real telling point for now is whether you need the epic stuff, or if you can get away with the crafted stuff plus a piece or two of epic stuff.
What he's saying is basically this, you WILL NEED IT. Think about the last time this much epic resist gear was put in. Got it in your head? Ok now, what classes needed it, and how much? Great, now we're getting somewhere.
No point in being a condescending ass. There is almost as much epic NR and FrR gear in plate but only one tank per raid needs those pieces, not every single plate-wearer. There is a boatload of craftable AR gear that doesn't have an Vael- or Sapph-style encounter designed around it. The question is at least a valid one.
'War' is too small a word for what I'm fighting. Like a candle in front of the whole burning Sun. Now, I am not going to die today. I have other projects, and other options.
No point in being a condescending ass. There is almost as much epic NR and FrR gear in plate but only one tank per raid needs those pieces, not every single plate-wearer. There is a boatload of craftable AR gear that doesn't have an Vael- or Sapph-style encounter designed around it. The question is at least a valid one.
The question is certainly a valid one. I'm just saying that they offer full suits of badge FR for all armor types. For FrR/NR, the only epic pieces are plate, and sure enough, you only need it for your tanks in SSC. For AR even, you have blue Scryer pieces, but no full suits of epic resist gear. Only fire gets that treatment. It's reminiscent of the Naxx FrR epics.
Does him rebirthing end your raid because mana is low due to strain on the healers (If anyone has given him some serious attempts) or just outright damage output because of some other mechanic ? Someone commented earlier that he had different abilities in "phase 2."
The question is certainly a valid one. I'm just saying that they offer full suits of badge FR for all armor types. For FrR/NR, the only epic pieces are plate, and sure enough, you only need it for your tanks in SSC. For AR even, you have blue Scryer pieces, but no full suits of epic resist gear. Only fire gets that treatment. It's reminiscent of the Naxx FrR epics.
There is however a 3 piece epic cloth AR set. Is that in the game for Curator and Aran trash, where it really isn't needed, or is there going to be an AR fight in the future?
Is perhaps the Epic FR cloth in the game for Warlock OTs on Leo? And the other sets for other encounters, but only for one or two from each class?
There is a line that says "all classes will need FR for one fight" but there's just as valid a line for "some people from each class will need FR for one fight" or "some classes will need FR for different fights" or "FR was planned but is no longer as much of a factor due to encounter changes" or "FR is really useful but not *needed* in one fight" or etc.
I think there's room to doubt, and without some proof, what this thread was asking for, it doesn't stand to reason that we assume the "everyone needs FR" situation and make our guildies get out there farming and running heroics for the stuff.
For AR even, you have blue Scryer pieces, but no full suits of epic resist gear.
Cloth has the extra Soulcloth gear (1 piece overlaps with the Arcanoweave). Doesn't make much sense though, since there's no equivalent in the other armour types.
EDIT: Unless there's something unusual similar to warlocks with SR tanking Vek'lor again. Pure speculation though ><
The question is certainly a valid one. I'm just saying that they offer full suits of badge FR for all armor types. For FrR/NR, the only epic pieces are plate, and sure enough, you only need it for your tanks in SSC. For AR even, you have blue Scryer pieces, but no full suits of epic resist gear. Only fire gets that treatment. It's reminiscent of the Naxx FrR epics.
That's true and it's hard to ignore, but I think people are so skeptical of Blizzard's design choices all matching up (at least at this point, given the general unhappiness of the raid community) that not many people would be surprised if there was no real use for the gear in the game or something else silly.
Call me a troll and a cynic, but would anyone really be surprised if there was a boatload of gear in the game that had no practical raiding value?
I just read that sentence again and laughed out loud.
'War' is too small a word for what I'm fighting. Like a candle in front of the whole burning Sun. Now, I am not going to die today. I have other projects, and other options.
I may be mistaken but last time I loooked at it, it wasn't a great deal beter than the random green "of Fire Protection" gear that drops like candy (and is also available for every slot rather than the main slots you may not wish to replace).
Getting FR is not an issue in TBC as long as you have the foresight to keep what you find now rather than join the rush and pay inflated prices once everyone reaches the content that requires it.
I may be mistaken but last time I loooked at it, it wasn't a great deal beter than the random green "of Fire Protection" gear that drops like candy (and is also available for every slot rather than the main slots you may not wish to replace).
Getting FR is not an issue in TBC as long as you have the foresight to keep what you find now rather than join the rush and pay inflated prices once everyone reaches the content that requires it.
Getting decent FR isn't an issue if you have the foresight to get heroic badges/farm motes of fire (takes about few hours of farming to get the whole crafted set - which as I wrote above is near as good as the epic set) for it either. The point isn't about how hard it is to get, it's about whether or not people should be bothering to get it now? And for the whole guild?
Because while it's easy for a few people to find the time and motivation it's not quite so easy to do the same for a whole guild.
So far the messages about the phoenix are conflicting:
Guilds in the past have said "busy farming for Phoenix" but no one is comming out in this thread to confirm, and we have suggestions here that the fire trouble is avoidable. So at the moment the answer seems to be leaning towards no need to FR up the whole raid.
I would therefore think at the moment it's probably best to just get a couple of people in each class get the FR stuff, not the whole guild. That way if there is a need for certain classes to do certain roles and use FR they'll be ready, but you dont have to stress the whole guild out by doing instance after boring instance.
What he's saying is basically this, you WILL NEED IT. Think about the last time this much epic resist gear was put in. Got it in your head? Ok now, what classes needed it, and how much? Great, now we're getting somewhere.
EDIT, misread.
The point is, it would be nice if somebody actually answered the question at some point during this thread.
It's amazing how much people will argue over not knowing anything. There are apparently a grand total of two people in this thread who can actually answer the OPs questions, but they didn't.
If you've got extra badges, save them - it's not like the gear takes fewer bank slots than the badges anyway. If you're actually about to attempt Al'ar next week, then you're in a position to find out yourself how much FR you need, and on who. If you're not about to attempt him soon, chances are good that more info on him will be out before you try, and you can decide based on that. In the event that you absolutely must know now, grab as many guildies you have attuned to TK, zone in, clear to the God, and pull him.
If you've actually done the pull and know something about the fight's requirements feel free to reply. If not, don't.
Or I guess you could be a smart-ass like me and comment about other people commenting. Sorry :S
Astromancers in mechanaar are the fire-loving dudes with the hellish fire shield and pyroblast knockback attack and so on, though. I'd assume the high astromancer would keep the theme.
The point is, it would be nice if somebody actually answered the question at some point during this thread.
To be honest with you, if guilds are making any progress on this fight, and know the answer as to how much FR is needed, they're probably not going to tell you, or anyone. This is an unkilled boss, and there isn't a lot of info out there about him because people don't want to share their information and give help to someone else who might beat them.
For example, if he needed no fire resist at all, or only FR on 2 people, if a guild wanted a world first, they would want everyone else to think that everyone in the raid needed max FR, because it would slow down competition.
It'd be nice, but I don't think anyone is going to give you a clear cut answer on a fight that hasn't yet been defeated.
Astromancers in mechanaar are the fire-loving dudes with the hellish fire shield and pyroblast knockback attack and so on, though. I'd assume the high astromancer would keep the theme.
Just to push this thread further into meandering speculation, there's a line on the ever reliant WoWWiki which says arcane damage and sounds vaguely like it's from someone who wiped on her once.
Why do people insist on arguing over little things :P Personally I think my original question has merits, if you disagree whats the purpose of disputing that here - lets stick to business and try to find an answer to the topic at hand..
.. Does Al'Al require everyone in the raid to have epic fire resist?
Its true alot of guilds on him wouldnt mention anything cuz hes an 'unkilled boss' and strategy is hush hush. But im confident someone who knows the fight can at least say something like 'yes its needed and totally essential, like Fr on the MT for firemaw' or something like 'no, its not essential to the fight and you can circumvent/LOS/avoid his main fire abilitys anyway'
Alot of gear in the game by blizzard might not actually serve any purpose. That full arcane resistant set, maybe it was there for curator. Hell, the nature resistance sets for my mage was made thinking id use that someday too. Huhuran? Nope never did, and havent ever since I created it.
I dont think its unreasonable to wonder whether those fire items are simply 'in the game' to be upgrades to the popular fire items the old game had but people dont have access to. People dont do MC, they wont craft their Core requiring items as much, maybe its just blizzards way of providing you with an alternate path to get fire resistance gear. Nobody can say with 100% certainty it WILL be required, we can only speculate that it will be with the phoenix.. and even then - nobody can give a definitive answer on how much/how many people will need it.
If you *know* the epic fire gear will be required, could you please reference the particular boss abilitys the phoenix might have that necessitate this?
I do feel that when 100 badges = 100-200 hours hard work is at stake, players do deserve a better answer than 'I think'
OK, to clear this heap up....
You dont need Arcane Resi Gear for Void Reaver, it makes keeping melee alive a lot easier though.
You dont need Fire Resi Gear for Al'Ar unless something late in phase 2 requires it.
You dont need Arcane Resi Gear for Atromancer Solaris unless you need too long to kick his (her?) ass.
Arcane resist is useful (atleast tanking) for Heroic Botanica, actually a fair amount of resist gear can be useful in Heroics instead of just Raids.
People at first assumed the epic FR was for Magt, and proven wrong, now the assumption has moved on to the next 'fire boss', for all we know it might be for Kael instead (as he summons Phoenix's and most likely has a plethora of fire spells).
The epic FR doesn't seem 'easiest' to me, I can get a bunch of greens which are basicly as good, there are craftables everywhere too and god knows I would rather spend 100-200g on mats to get those than to farm 100~ badges for them.
#39 Sta, 55 FR# vs #30 Sta, 40FR + 3 gems (27 Healing, 6MP5 for me)#, seems kinda obvious to me that the blues are 'better' than the epics. Yes I know most people wouldn't want to put rare gems in just resistance gear, but even with green ones (21 Healing 3MP5) I find this crafted gear more useful.
One thing that irks me is how horribly done the protection potions are; 1 dreamfoil (<1g) + 1 elemental (50s-1.5g) vs 1 mana thistle (4g) + 1 primal (30g~), so a cost gone from 2g to 35g per potion, but hey thank god they seem to be unrequired for anything yet.
Having them cost 1 felweed (cheap) + 1 mote (2-3g) would of been alot more suitable to allow them to be used... at all.
But tell people to farm the primals for their craftable resist gear when they have time, and to save up some badges if they dont need anything special and then when the fixes have gone live (2.1 test) im sure information about the 'current and intended' FR will be answered. Basing any decisions on information now seems silly on a known overtuned/buggy boss with everything in 2.1 considered.
So far in this thread there are two comments which grab my attention about Al'Ar
At 1% p2 starts, pretty sure it's actually 1% and not 0%, but same thing anyway. I did not see any egg gfx, for me he just vanished and came back in the same form with 100% hp, doing different stuff then in p1. In any way there's no event-kind-of-thing like cthun's phase switch, at least nothing I got aware of.
Interesting - im assuming you've done the fight. Maybe he just has several 'live' phases and everyone collapses into an egg after 2-3 phases or something?
Anyone got any ideas.. lets throw some speculation into the ring.
If you do it right, you can avoid flame buffet
Ok so does this mean you literally dont need any fire resistance, because thats what the comment implies. I honestly find it difficult to believe a Phoenix boss fight mechanics (the creature is made of fire) will allow u to totally take zero fire damage and remove the need for any type of resistance gear, it doesnt make sense. Yes, I could be wrong - thats just my guess.
One thing that irks me is how horribly done the protection potions are; 1 dreamfoil (<1g) + 1 elemental (50s-1.5g) vs 1 mana thistle (4g) + 1 primal (30g~), so a cost gone from 2g to 35g per potion, but hey thank god they seem to be unrequired for anything yet.
QFT
What the hell is with the Major protection potions. Blizzard - do you honestly think we'll use them at the current ridiculous mat cost, even for 'the ultimate fire resistance' fight. Its simply overkill. One primal fire per pot is simply too much, for too little (compared with major protection potions) Some of the majors are ok, primal shadows are cheap for the shadow ones. But Major Fire protection requiring Primal Fire really is hard to justify as acceptable.
You dont need Fire Resi Gear for Al'Ar unless something late in phase 2 requires it.
Thankyou for the comment - I do have one followup question however.
You could say you dont 'need' fire resistance on firemaw (except for tanks) and can still do the encounter. However we all know, when learing the fight, that this was a silly way to do the boss and that everyone should aim for fire resistance to some level to make the fight significantly more manageable.
So when you say you dont 'need' fire resistance gear for Al'ar, are you referring to a situation like firemaw - where it might be possible to do without resist (for dps/healers) - but you'd be stupid/silly to try? Or do you literally mean you dont need it, and your lack of resist gear will in no way make the fight/easier harder than if you did have it (like wearing fire resist for magtheridon)
On the subject of resistance fights, I can see Jewelcrafting resistance necklaces potentially being very powerful. Every person in a group having a necklace that causes every person in the group to absorb 900-2700 fire damage for example.
Of course the mats are roughly 250g for each one (on Mal'Ganis at least), so hopefully it doesn't become another consumable that is "available, therefore expected".
For Reference:
Pendant of Frozen Flame
Binds when equipped
Neck
+18 Stamina
+30 Fire Resistance
Requires Level 70
Use: Absorbs 900 to 2700 fire damage on all nearby party members. Lasts 5 min.
10 Charges
So when you say you dont 'need' fire resistance gear for Al'ar, are you referring to a situation like firemaw - where it might be possible to do without resist (for dps/healers) - but you'd be stupid/silly to try? Or do you literally mean you dont need it, and your lack of resist gear will in no way make the fight/easier harder than if you did have it (like wearing fire resist for magtheridon)
Nope, just don't need it at all.
Originally Posted by sovelis41
Does him rebirthing end your raid because mana is low due to strain on the healers (If anyone has given him some serious attempts) or just outright damage output because of some other mechanic ? Someone commented earlier that he had different abilities in "phase 2."
Rebirth starts phase 2, just like killing The Eye of C'Thun starts phase 2.
Guilds in the past have said "busy farming for Phoenix" but no one is comming out in this thread to confirm, and we have suggestions here that the fire trouble is avoidable. So at the moment the answer seems to be leaning towards no need to FR up the whole raid.
Correct me if im wrong - but didnt the Nihilum webpage at one point say how all their guild members were farming 'hundreds of hours' to prepare for the phoenix, presumably for badges->fire resist? They might have been working with the wrong strat, but I find it hard to believe their (excellent) players would devote hundreds of hours of work to getting gear without thoroughly researching and concluding its instrumental to beating the fight.
On a purely personal selfish note - Im a fire mage - is the phoenix immune to fire?
I really love my spec and hopefully wont have to go frost.. but im guessing he is immune? We thought nightbane wouldve been immune at first but that wasnt the case, hopefully its like that here to and i can keep my spec (fingers crossed)
edit - I still think that if ph1 is just a dps race against the clock before the stacking debuff overwhelms you - its hard to believe at *some* point in the encounter theres literally no fire resist needed. Perhaps there is some 'other' boss in another instance it will be, or maybe its blizzards way of just 'having the items available' to those who decide to craft it even if its not necessary - but it indeed sounds very strange to have a boss which is the ultimate form of living fire not require some sort of gearing to counteract that, in the way you need your frost for sapphiron.
Then again, blizzard did say they were changing resistance fights some time ago? Maybe thats come to fruitition.
Nevertheless thx for the insight, I hope eventually we can work out whether theres a 100% solid use/requirement for this resist gear , whether it be another phase of the phoenix fight or an encounter somewhere down the track in another instance.
04/11/07, 2:24 AM
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