Actual 2.1 Patchnotes - Page 27

Erongg · 04/26/07, 1:20 PM

Originally Posted by Enthralled

My casual guild has been working on KZ, and by working on I mean spending week after week wiping to Moroes. We can kill him, but not reliably by any means. This fight, which is trivial for so many raiders, is harder than any fight I experienced in MC before Domo. You have multiple adds you need to deal with while tanking a boss than can not be taunted and can temporarily remove the MT from combat all the while periodically applying a very nasty dot that acts as a time limit for the fight. This fight makes every single non heroic 5 man look like a total joke. Yet this is not even considered to be close to the hardest fight in KZ.

Assuming I can keep moral up, over time we will slowly progress through KZ. Of course to do this we have self selected the best players in the guild. We have over 20 people keyed to go, but we can only really take 12-13. The other players in the guild can do fine in a 5 man, but they just flat out can’t deal with the fights in KZ. When even our supposed “A” team struggles week after week the other players in the guild have basically given up on being able to beat these fights.

I had high hopes for being able to experience the 25 man raid content in BC. Now I doubt anyone in my guild will ever see anything past mag and gruul. Perhaps a year from now with a new level cap we might go back to see MH and BT, in the same way we have taken a few guild members to see Ony for the first time at 70.

This new raid content is not just hard for the average player, it is impossible. My guild is made up of friends, family, and co-workers. Many of these people had a hard time leveling to 70 and see that as an impressive achievement. I could have taken most of them into MC and done fine, it was a very forgiving instance. If 20 players could carry another 20 through MC, the first raid instance in BC should allow 13 good players to carry 12 bad players through. Instead you need 25 people who are not just good players, but are also very well geared (no valor tanking in BC!), well buffed, and execute complex actions without major flaws.

KZ, Mag, and Gruul are brick walls which do nothing to encourage raiding. MC might have had all kinds of problems but it was not significantly harder than running UBRS, you just had to solve the logistical problem of finding more players. The raiding game in WoW will never grow without the equivalent of an MC starting out each expansion’s raid environment.

It is embarrassing to post here admitting that Moroes is the pinnacle of my guilds achievements, but I think some of you really lose track of how hard this is for many people who play along side you. From our point of view 2.1 does nothing to change the amount of content we will be able to see.

FYI, you can do Maiden of Virtue without having Moroes dead, so if grinding away on that one fight is burning you out you can choose to do different one. You will need to have Moroes dead to do the Opera event (and anything past it) though.

Nakilos · 04/26/07, 2:13 PM

I'm not sure why people have such a hard time with Moroes. If you have 1 priest, shackle 1 mob. If you have a hunter, trap another. The third can be feared by a Paladin, the fourth is just killed. A caster keeps agro (mage or warlock, doesn't matter), a rogue follows the mob around keeping crippling poison on the mob. Kill the mob thats Paladin feared after that, retrap the trapped mob, repeat until the adds are dead the same method the whole way through. I'm sure a shaman could do a kite too with Earthbind totems on one of the melee mobs or something. I'm pretty sure a DPS warrior can do a kite of sorts too, intercept a mob, hamstring it, sunder 1-2 times, move. If its an undergeared group, blow timers to get adds dead I guess asap, as each one dies its less of a problem to deal with and things just get easier.

The point being there are a lot of ways of dealing with the mobs, people who have a hard time with it don't exercise the options.

songster · 04/26/07, 2:15 PM

Originally Posted by Enthralled

If 20 players could carry another 20 through MC, the first raid instance in BC should allow 13 good players to carry 12 bad players through.

Actually, that's probably the most succinct encapsulation of the whole dilemma I've yet seen. Sod "casual" or "hardcore", or the raid cap size. It can pretty much be boiled down to "what proportion of your raid can be passengers"

You could put it on a chart from MC through to Naxx.

MC - 50%
BWL - 25%
AQ40 - 10%
Naxx - 0%

Right now, even the 10-mans are starting at 20% max. A deliberate decision, I'm sure, but it excludes many people.

It doesn't just exclude the ones who used to be passengers - it excludes the hard-working ones who were previously carrying their friends and would be happy to continue doing so.

That touches on another element - guild loyalty - which in my experience is *way* higher in "casuals" than in "hardcore". But this is really wandering so far off the topic of 2.1.0 that we should really move it to the "what is an average guild" thread.

To bring it back on topic - what will the changes in 2.1.0 do for the "passenger ratio", if anything? What changes could be made in 2.2.0 to make the instances more forgiving. And I don't mean forgiving of idiots who stand in the fire, or who DPS the wrong mob - I mean the ones who don't theorycraft their DPS or healingcraft to the bone, and end up doing 2/3 their potential DPS, or running out of mana 50% earlier.

arioch · 04/26/07, 2:16 PM

Furthermore you can have an offtank generate threat on Moroes AND keep an add to himself. The whole fight is pretty lenient in the kind of strategies you can work up, and you can pretty much clean out that dining hall and strategize at your leisure since Moroes and his adds just stand there.

Yaltus · 04/26/07, 2:35 PM

Originally Posted by Nakilos

I'm not sure why people have such a hard time with Moroes. If you have 1 priest, shackle 1 mob. If you have a hunter, trap another. The third can be feared by a Paladin, the fourth is just killed. A caster keeps agro (mage or warlock, doesn't matter), a rogue follows the mob around keeping crippling poison on the mob. Kill the mob thats Paladin feared after that, retrap the trapped mob, repeat until the adds are dead the same method the whole way through. I'm sure a shaman could do a kite too with Earthbind totems on one of the melee mobs or something. I'm pretty sure a DPS warrior can do a kite of sorts too, intercept a mob, hamstring it, sunder 1-2 times, move. If its an undergeared group, blow timers to get adds dead I guess asap, as each one dies its less of a problem to deal with and things just get easier.

The point being there are a lot of ways of dealing with the mobs, people who have a hard time with it don't exercise the options.

You're almost illustrating the point here though - lots of people have to know what they are doing and not screw up: the shackling priest, the hunter, the rogue, the paladin, the main tank. Right there half your group has duties that if they screw up, someone is probably going to get eaten by an add or Moroes. Some of those adds cleanse as well. Add in an offtank and an additional healer, and you're already up to 70% of the raid having pretty important jobs. Sure, it's easy for a lot of us on these boards, but think about the people we're talking about, those that have only done Ony/MC. How many people really needed to know what they are doing on Ony? The tank and a few healers I'd say. Same in MC. The "passenger ratio" (borrowing that term songster) is much lower in Karazhan than it was for early raid content in vanilla.

Enthralled · 04/26/07, 2:54 PM

I appreciate the feedback on Moroes (I really do! You guys rock) but I do not want to get the thread off topic. I was just basically trying to address that while 2.1 has some great changes in it (the consumable changes are very welcome) it does nothing at all to change the current raiding environment. The people who have the time, skill, and dedication to make progress now will be able to spend less time outside of the raid making progress after. Nothing will get significantly easier for people attempting the initial raids though.

I experience my high end raiding vicariously by reading about the exploits of others so I am actually very happy with the changes in 2.1 . I just do not think anyone should be deluded into thinking it will have any great affect on the number of people raiding.

As for the rogue with the dinner party, we should move any discussion about him to the many other existing threads on the topic =)

Deris · 04/26/07, 3:25 PM

When I joined a guild just prior to Naxx opening on Deathwing the guild had a *very* high "passenger" (I like that term) to "driver" ratio. However as time went on (we farmed Anub/Instructor and that's about it) alot of those passengers slowly became part-time drivers, then full-time. People do step up, sometimes it takes people 10 or 20 attempts at an encounter to fully grasp the mechanics (ever notice how a first attempt is so chaotic and crazy, and a week later the same fight feels well paced and relaxed?) and get into a rhythym with whatever they need to do, they'll figure out tricks and nuances required for the encounter. Case in point, I self admittedly am not the most cognizant player, I repeatedly paid too much attention to raid frames on Thaddius and as a result got myself killed + others alot, until I eventually started saying the buff outloud "postive, move." and "negative, move." to myself and it helped me immensely to the point where I didn't fail on Thaddius. Same thing for Lurker, I tell myself "Spout when he pops up" every time he goes down, and I haven't died to spout in a few weeks.

Hopefully in your case Enthralled alot of your passengers feel the need to become drivers, or at least step up for a few encounters

I've seen it happen to a family type guild, and I think every player gets a small epiphany at some point when they realize how something works.

Sinzar · 04/26/07, 3:54 PM

So does anyone have any info on the attunement process for Black Temple? I haven't seen mention of any kind of quest or method to obtain the Medallion of Karabor aside from speculation that it requires an A'lar kill based on the voice files in the patch data.

Is the attunement quest on test disabled to keep it a surprise, or do I just fail at finding info?

Cesar2000 · 04/26/07, 4:02 PM

Originally Posted by Sinzar

So does anyone have any info on the attunement process for Black Temple? I haven't seen mention of any kind of quest or method to obtain the Medallion of Karabor aside from speculation that it requires an A'lar kill based on the voice files in the patch data.

Is the attunement quest on test disabled to keep it a surprise, or do I just fail at finding info?

Best guess would be that it starts in Mount Hyjal. But no I don't believe anyone has found it yet.

Yaltus · 04/26/07, 4:14 PM

Originally Posted by Cesar2000

Best guess would be that it starts in Mount Hyjal. But no I don't believe anyone has found it yet.

That would be really odd if it started in MH and the part about killing Al'ar is true. Because then you'd have killed Kael to get into Hyjal, and then have to go back and kill Al'ar (who you've already defeated when you did Tempest Keep). Although, I guess since Mount Hyjal is back in time itself...not going to continue this thought process, as I'm sure it would make my brain collapse. It certainly wouldn't be the first time that's happened (Broodlord and Vael for AQ quests), but it'd be less contradictory to just have Akama give a followup quest that isn't currently implemented, maybe with some kind of trigger like possessing the TK and SSC keys.

Alhena · 04/26/07, 4:48 PM

Originally Posted by songster

Actually, that's probably the most succinct encapsulation of the whole dilemma I've yet seen. Sod "casual" or "hardcore", or the raid cap size. It can pretty much be boiled down to "what proportion of your raid can be passengers"

You could put it on a chart from MC through to Naxx.

MC - 50%
BWL - 25%
AQ40 - 10%
Naxx - 0%

Right now, even the 10-mans are starting at 20% max. A deliberate decision, I'm sure, but it excludes many people.

It doesn't just exclude the ones who used to be passengers - it excludes the hard-working ones who were previously carrying their friends and would be happy to continue doing so.

Good point. Really good point.

I used to raid ZG and AQ20 with my significant other. She's a moderately capable priest, but there's a lot about healing she never really learned. To me, the chance to raid with friends is worth slower progression.

If I have to do more dps as a plate rogue, and/or be a little quicker with the "oh $#%@!" buttons when I'm tanking, to make up for the fact that she's only an average healer, that's worth it to me.

Our situation is not unique. I've known quite a few couples, one of whom was signficantly better at the game than the other. Or a group of RL friends, one of whom is out of alignment skill-wise compared to his buddies (either better or worse) It's not a choice I'd ever want to have to make, because it sucks to have to tell someone "you can come, but your girlfriend can't." Most people will (justifiably) reply "sorry, you get both of us or neither of us."

It's not an optimal way to raid. It sure won't get you world, or server, or faction firsts. But for a less hardcore guild, we should be able to bring a couple of maybe-less-than stellar people because they're our friends/spouses/SOs.

Deris · 04/26/07, 4:53 PM

I hope they do release more smaller raid zones - I know there is room for alot more instances, and we could use a new ZG/AQ20 (decent loot - long term rewards very nice) type zones for weekends/off raid nights. Maybe a 15 man raid easier in terms of difficulty than Karazhan with primarily very nice blues and flecked with Karazhan level epics?

LadyVex · 04/26/07, 5:09 PM

Originally Posted by Erongg

http://www.wowhead.com/?items=4.3&fi...:2:3;crv=0:0:0

It's not a one name set like Desolation or Tidefury, but there's a very nice mail healing set to be had out there.

Oh some stuff I haven't seen on there.

Question, while not a one name set, are the items so designed to work together? IE, if you do heroics as a priest, you can get a whole bunch of items that have the same graphic - pink transcendence, though every piece has a different name. (Vestia's Pauldrons, the Sight helm, Robes of Effervescent Light, etc.) I kinda want to match ; ;

Thank you for linking that, although what I was more hoping for was more items from either the new zones or new items from old zones. To my knowledge the vestia's pauldrons from normal mode Mechanar are some of the best for a shaman, and they're cloth. So I suppose I was hoping to fill in more slots.

BTW - Anyone noticed TBC is the purple expansion? Every class seems to have a set that is purple, or several sets that are purple. Paladin and Shaman get hit hard; all of their gear is purple cast; priests get hallowed and the pink/purple transcendence...just kinda strikes me as funny. :P

Cerathi · 04/26/07, 5:16 PM

Originally Posted by LadyVex

Oh some stuff I haven't seen on there.

Question, while not a one name set, are the items so designed to work together? IE, if you do heroics as a priest, you can get a whole bunch of items that have the same graphic - pink transcendence, though every piece has a different name. (Vestia's Pauldrons, the Sight helm, Robes of Effervescent Light, etc.) I kinda want to match ; ;

Yes.

Ten-Storms (old t2) lookalike set - (from that list)

Head: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=27759 (Headdress of the Tides)
Shoulder: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=27826 (Mantle of the Sea Wolf)
Chest: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=27912 (Harness of the Deep Currents)
Belt: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=27835 (Stillwater Girdle)
Legs: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=27458 (Oceansong Kilt)
Boots: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=27549 (Wavefury Boots)
Bracers: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28194 (Primal Surge Bracers)
Gloves: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=27806 (Fathomheart Gauntlets)

BTW - Anyone noticed TBC is the purple expansion? Every class seems to have a set that is purple, or several sets that are purple. Paladin and Shaman get hit hard; all of their gear is purple cast; priests get hallowed and the pink/purple transcendence...just kinda strikes me as funny. :P[/quote]

I blame the Exodar. The thing's made out of radioactive purple; when it crashed, the fallout started spreading, and now everyone's feeling the effects.

LadyVex · 04/26/07, 5:25 PM

Haha, even the look alike shaman set is purple?

Thanks very much for the info! I plan on respecing in a couple of levels to go resto, but I wanted to look good while I did it. :P Looking at all of my shaman counterparts (4 of us rolled a draenei shaman and the others hit 70 before me) they just look ridiculously silly, even if they are effective.

Ah, well. Still hoping for more drops!

Davidson · 04/26/07, 5:26 PM

No purple for warriors thank god, it's all green crap.

arioch · 04/26/07, 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by Davidson

No purple for warriors thank god, it's all green crap.

So true on so many levels.