Black Temple PTR and new loot discussion - Page 6

suicuique · 04/19/07, 8:10 AM

Originally Posted by mek

Haste is actually insanely overpowered for dps warriors, as it "bypasses" rage normalization; 3% haste is a guaranteed 3% more rage, as you hit 3% more often - while 3% more dps doesn't give nearly the same return.

No its not. Haste effect are considered in the "weapon speed" term of the rage gained formula. At least it was explicitely tested to be so for the flurry effect.

In short: haste does NOT bypass rage normalization. While added DPS does increase your rage, x% haste does not translate to x% more rage.

mek · 04/19/07, 8:23 AM

Originally Posted by suicuique

No its not. Haste effect are considered in the "weapon speed" term of the rage gained formula. At least it was explicitely tested to be so for the flurry effect.

In short: haste does NOT bypass rage normalization. While added DPS does increase your rage, x% haste does not translate to x% more rage.

Does heroism/bloodlust increase rage generation?

suicuique · 04/19/07, 8:33 AM

Originally Posted by mek

Does heroism/bloodlust increase rage generation?

Sure it does. As do crit trinkets. Or any damage enhancing skills/effects/gear.
My point was that 10% haste does not generate 10% more rage.

This rule was valid before rage normalization. Now it's not.

Andrise · 04/19/07, 11:17 AM

10% more haste adds about 5% more rage now. It still scales rage generation fantastically.

levk · 04/19/07, 11:35 AM

Doesn't that mean that crit scales better than haste?

suicuique · 04/19/07, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by Andrise

10% more haste adds about 5% more rage now. It still scales rage generation fantastically.

Adding 10% crit will result in how much more rage IYHO? (this depends on your current crit rate, I know ... so lets assume going from 30% to 40% crit)
But I will stop here, this is better discussed in the class mechanics forum.

Andrise · 04/19/07, 11:52 AM

Crit scales rage better than anything else, because a crit is the only way to change the 2nd portion of the rage in a swing, the "normalized" value. On a crit, that number in addition to the rage from damage are both doubled. Of course, adding hit will improve your rage generation just as well, because you're going from 0 rage to a "hit amount," just like a crit goes from a "hit amount" to double that when you crit.

Whereas any other kind of damage boost scales rage half as fast as prior to rage normalization.

(This is obviously ignoring the added rage from proccing Flurry, but flurry should be near 100% uptime anyway with 30%+ crit, so it's not a big deal.)

And with that, I'll stop the somewhat off-topic meandering.

tedv · 04/19/07, 1:34 PM

Originally Posted by suicuique

Adding 10% crit will result in how much more rage IYHO? (this depends on your current crit rate, I know ... so lets assume going from 30% to 40% crit)
But I will stop here, this is better discussed in the class mechanics forum.

For what it's worth, you need to compare ratings, not percents. Ie. the question is really, "How much more/less effective is 1 haste rating than 1 crit rating", not "How much more/less effective is 1% haste than 1% crit". Answering that first question tells you whether blizzard's basic itemization means you'll, in general, get more benefit from +haste or +crit. It's not a fair comparison to say 1% haste is twice as good as 1% crit if that haste costs five times the item budget.

That said, potential upgrades are rarely that clearcut, so any real evaluation needs to be done on a case-by-case basis. "Is 8 strength and 24 haste rating better than 4 agility, 10 stamina, and 30 crit rating?" That's the real kind of question warriors face.

Synteur · 04/19/07, 4:47 PM

After going through all of the items found in the PTR boxes, I've done my best to distribute the 'new' drops across the unkilled (or killed once) bosses. I've sorted these based on the item level (the value tooltip mods are reporting from the server), along with the theme or name of the item itself. I found it somewhat interesting to piece-together the loot tables of unkilled bosses- I'd like to think this would turn out to be accurate, but it's purely (logical) speculation. I'll gladly update this as mistakes are found/new items seen.

Al'ar 115
115	Band of Al'ar
115	Talisman of the Sun King
115	Talon of Al'ar
115	Phoenix-Ring of Rebirth
115	Phoenix-Wing Cloak

High Astromancer Solarian 115
115	Wand of the Forgotten Star
115	Mindstorm Wristbands

Tier 5 120

Lady Vashj 125
125	Fang of Vashj
125	Ring of Endless Coils
125	Lightfathom Scepter
125	Cobra-Lash Boots
125	Serpent Spine Longbow
125	Coral Band of the Revived

Kael'Thas 125
125	The Nexus Key
125	Lord Sanguinar's Claim
125	Sunshower Light Cloak
125	Band of the Ranger-General
125	Twinblade of the Phoenix
125	Thalassian Wildercloak

Tier 6 130?

Black Temple 130+
130	Medallion of Karabor ('key', presumably from the attunement questline)
130	Girdle of the Lightbearer
130?	Hellfire-Encased Pendant
130?	Choker of Serrated Blades
130?	"Netherleerenumhang" "Nether Void Cape" (German dropped spell hit/+shadow cloak)
130?	Treads of the Den Mother


Hyjal Exalted Reputation Rings 150?
150	Band of the Eternal Sage

Unknown?
125	Belt of One-Hundred Deaths
130	Howling Wind Bracers

Nezralix · 04/19/07, 4:55 PM

Well, that analysis seems to suggest that Hyjal has superior loot to Black Temple, and as I understood it Hyjal was lesser or equal to BT. But I don't really know anymore.

Synteur · 04/19/07, 5:09 PM

Originally Posted by Nezralix

Well, that analysis seems to suggest that Hyjal has superior loot to Black Temple, and as I understood it Hyjal was lesser or equal to BT. But I don't really know anymore.

Though probably not enough to warrant justification, the Karazhan exalted reputation rings report a higher item level than the highest-valued drops in the instance (off Prince). There could be something similar here- with Archimonde / Illidan drops at ~140-145 (leaving the rings at 150 as found), assuming the two instances have equivalent loot quality.

Keline · 04/19/07, 7:07 PM

I'm surprised there hasn't been any talk about the epic gems?
So the raw gems that drop in there can be crafted with no additional cost into socket gems, just like the other gems?

I've seen a couple of Lion's Eyes, which make +10 spell crit / spell hit / resilience / defense gems, so I'm assuming that all of them drop there. If BT is the only source for these gems (since exalted Consortium friends have not received epics and they'd probably be incredibly rare from other mining or prospecting) and the droprate exceeded a guilds needs, wouldn't this make BT raiding guilds absolutly and incredibly rich?

Vontre · 04/19/07, 7:09 PM

Originally Posted by Keline

I'm surprised there hasn't been any talk about the epic gems?
So the raw gems that drop in there can be crafted with no additional cost into socket gems, just like the other gems?

I've seen a couple of Lion's Eyes, which make +10 spell crit / spell hit / resilience / defense gems, so I'm assuming that all of them drop there. If BT is the only source for these gems (since exalted Consortium friends have not received epics and they'd probably be incredibly rare from other mining or prospecting) and the droprate exceeded a guilds needs, wouldn't this make BT raiding guilds absolutly and incredibly rich?

This does not necessarily seem like a bad thing.

Joink · 04/19/07, 7:13 PM

Originally Posted by Keline

wouldn't this make BT raiding guilds absolutly and incredibly rich?

I highly doubt that. I don't think any guild has been 'rich' since Naxx came out.

Keline · 04/19/07, 7:21 PM

Yeah but this might change simply because guilds now stop paying massive amounts of gold for herbs to flask up while now getting back an exclusive supply for something everyone wants. It's even "worse" than with selling BWL epics, as you sold these to people who did not raid at all. Now everyone that isn't raiding BT will be a customer of the BT raiding guilds. Get a T5 drop, you'll need gems and many will simply get the best gems available. That would be +15stamina gems sold by BT raiding guilds.

This does not necessarily seem like a bad thing.

While I agree that guilds getting a new source of income isn't a bad thing, I think it is not right that they get an exclusive shot at epic gems that aren't unique. The PVP epic gems are a joke, there's only a few gems, most classes can only use 1-2 of them. Too many heroic gems are junk and getting the one you want might take a dozen runs.

Vontre · 04/19/07, 7:23 PM

Originally Posted by Keline

Yeah but this might change simply because guilds now stop paying massive amounts of gold for herbs to flask up while now getting back an exclusive supply for something everyone wants. It's even "worse" than with selling BWL epics, as you sold these to people who did not raid at all. Now everyone that isn't raiding BT will be a customer of the BT raiding guilds. Get a T5 drop, you'll need gems and many will simply get the best gems available. That would be +15stamina gems sold by BT raiding guilds.

While I agree that guilds getting a new source of income isn't a bad thing, I think it is not right that they get an exclusive shot at epic gems that aren't unique. The PVP epic gems are a joke, there's only a few gems, most classes can only use 1-2 of them. Too many heroic gems are junk and getting the one you want might take a dozen runs.

PvPers too. +15 stamina gems? Ok, I'm suddenly very interested in this topic.

Yeah, the only BT guild on a server would end up fantastically rich. Maybe they'll be added in as rare drops in heroics or something as well.

Keline · 04/19/07, 7:36 PM

Yeah it's called Solid Empyrean Sapphire

lazerpewpew · 04/19/07, 7:44 PM

A quick question on the epic gems:

Are those BOE or BOP?

thebuddha · 04/19/07, 7:45 PM

I wouldn't say "rich."

At the moment it's unclear what the exact drop rate on gems will be.

Not to mention people are going to have 10-15 blue gems in their gear that will need upgrading in addition to all the new gear they are getting. It's going to be a while before (smart) raiding guilds are going to sell upgrades rather than use them.

Edit: I don't want to start this into another stupid raider vs non-raider debate, but how is this any different then getting regular epic upgrades? It's not like they could make the gems BoP...you need to cut them. I, for one, welcome this change--it's nice to finally see cool stuff drop in raids again.

Wodahs · 04/19/07, 7:46 PM

I believe the new gems are unique equipped cuts. The raw gems themselves drop off trash, etc, in bt.

thebuddha · 04/19/07, 7:53 PM

Originally Posted by Wodahs

I believe the new gems are unique equipped cuts. The raw gems themselves drop off trash, etc, in bt.

Are you sure?

I'm just going off the screenshots but it doesn't say unique or unique-equipped like the PvP ones do.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/images/n...jewelcraft.jpg

Keline · 04/19/07, 7:58 PM

Why's there no healing/stamina one

ildon · 04/20/07, 2:13 AM

Originally Posted by Keline

Yeah but this might change simply because guilds now stop paying massive amounts of gold for herbs to flask up while now getting back an exclusive supply for something everyone wants. It's even "worse" than with selling BWL epics, as you sold these to people who did not raid at all. Now everyone that isn't raiding BT will be a customer of the BT raiding guilds. Get a T5 drop, you'll need gems and many will simply get the best gems available. That would be +15stamina gems sold by BT raiding guilds.

While I agree that guilds getting a new source of income isn't a bad thing, I think it is not right that they get an exclusive shot at epic gems that aren't unique. The PVP epic gems are a joke, there's only a few gems, most classes can only use 1-2 of them. Too many heroic gems are junk and getting the one you want might take a dozen runs.

Don't forget that in this same patch epic gems are able to drop from all heroic bosses, not just the final ones. I'm sure they're adding more/better stat combos in addition to just having them drop off more bosses.

Keline · 04/20/07, 5:02 AM

What does "able to" mean, an epic gem in addition to a LPS and 5 BOJs?

oh and where did the picture of the epic gems go? =(

thebuddha · 04/20/07, 5:36 AM

Originally Posted by Keline

What does "able to" mean, an epic gem in addition to a LPS and 5 BOJs?

oh and where did the picture of the epic gems go? =(

Hmm, try this one: http://www.mmo-champion.com/images/n...jewelcraft.jpg