Rogues dont have rage bars!.

Im yet to see any leather from BT though but god i hope they continue the haste items.

Well no, but haste does nothing for our yellow damage, only our white. For a warrior, haste will boost the white damage *and* the yellow damage, through increased rage income.

In theory, what you want to keep the effects balanced is for the small extra rage income from haste to be just enough to cancel out the fact that a rogue's white damage is a higher proportion of the total. That's a pretty fine line to tread.

I would imagine that melee haste would increase energy generation via combat potency, though I admittedly don't know if it's proc per swing or proc per minute.

True, but not all rogues spec combat potency, while as far as I'm aware all warriors use rage. But if there's a lot of haste flying around, expect to see combat potency nerfed. It's already silly that Latro's is the best offhand in the game for combat swords. Anyone know if that's still the case after the patch?

@Thaumaturge - combat potency is a straight 15% chance.

I would assume that the gladiators sword (now at 1.5 speed?) would be the best - combat potency makes a difference of somewhere around 6-7 dps per 0.1 weapon speed iirc, so the gladiators being 14-16 dps higher would certainly make up for the .1 speed decrease, even factoring in sword spec procs.

I think that's exactly what you'd expect according to the "traditional" numbers.

If the mob has a base 5% parry rate, 5 points of weapon skill should reduce it to 4.8%. That's a 4% reduction in the total number of parries, which is what you observed.

Since when has weapon skill been worthwhile? I was under then impression it was still worthless, since the nerf pre-tbc.

That's kind of what the discussion is about; the difference being that it's use has shifted from being useful as a DPS stat to being useful as a Tanking stat, mostly based on a post made by Crezax a while ago on it's value. The most recent discussion on the matter is about whether Crezax was talking about the reduction being absolute or relative.

There's a pretty large difference between the two; if the reduction were absolute, we'd get a total of 0.9% increase in chance for a swing to connect per point of Weapon Skill against a target 3 levels higher. If the reduction were relative however, we'd get far lower results.

Um no, he meant the total number of attacks that were parries/dodge/misses etc was reduced by 5% not that the reduction of each was 5% lower (heh in general no one talks about this stuff in relative numbers).

Also boss mobs have something more along the lines of a 15% parry rate 5% dodge and 5% miss rate. (And yes thats 15% hence the reason for parry reduction being so much higher than miss & dodge)

A fun and potentially eye-opening test if you have a human or an orc is to take the weapon-type with which they are proficient and see how little +hit they can get away with before they start seeing "misses" (not counting dual wield of course) on same-level mobs. In our experience our tank went a full Kara clear using his axe to tank, with +3% hit, and didn't see a single "miss" over the course of 3.5 hours.

That's definitely a lot more than just 0.04% per point. An WWS examined later showed a total miss+parry+dodge of something like 13% as opposed to 17-18% from prior runs using a sword.

Do you know the numerical effect on +skill on miss/dodge/parry/block/crit these days?

Haste doesn't increase rage generation anymore. =/ In fact, with more and more haste every swing will generate less rage per hit to keep the overall rage gen/min the same. That's what I meant by my previous post: after a certain % of +haste your weapons will generate 1 less rage per hit, and that would be not ideal.

then again haste rating gives more hits so if u get less rage pr hit u still get more hits, or?

(USER RECEIVED AN INFRACTION FOR THIS POST - STOP REPORTING IT)

Reading this sentence is making me want to claw my eyes out with a blunt hammer.

Yes, I failed to read the thread.

However on second thought, if haste rating increases your swing speed, even if you're getting less rage per swing, you may still be getting more rage per swing, or am I mistaken?


Just thought I'd throw that out there.

The theorycraft is probably best if taken to the Class forums.

In other news Nihilum killed Najentus and Supremus "legit" and got some new loot, up at their website or WoRaids.

Added to original Post.

I just ran this over my logs from a partial Kara run we did tonight. I haver 3/3 Precision (+3 hit), and was using a sword. Over the course of the run I had:

Parries: 124 (~6.2%)
Dodges: 98 (~4.9%)
Miss: 35 (~1.7%)
Hit: 1670 (~82.9%)
Crit: 87 (~4.3%)
Total: 2014

Looking at just the Mana Feeders (level 70s):

Parries: 15 (10%)
Dodges: 36 (24%)
Miss: 2 (~1.3%)
Hit: 94 (~62.6%
Crit: 3 (2%)
Total: 150

Clearly these are not large enough to be statistically valid, but it does show that 3 hit and 5 weapon skill is not sufficient to avoid misses on level 70 mobs. Next time I respec I will put points into Weapon Expertise (another +10 weapon skill), and see what that yields.

I suppose it is also possible the Mana Feeder's have an altered hit table. They account for a 3rd of my dodges, yet they are only 7.5% of my sample set.

Seeing all this new haste rating gear from BT, would it be too far fetched to assume that there is a fight waiting within BT which actually requires some amount of haste rating on some or all players? Place a debuff that drains a fixed amount of mana/life every second and regain some health/mana on every "attack made"/"spell cast"/"mana spent in a regular fashion". The more haste you have the easier this mechanic is to overcome. A new kind of resist fight.

I don't think there will be a fight that requires haste rating. I can't figure a mechanic that forces players to stack haste rating either.
Espeially considering that it takes ~11 haste / ~21 spell haste for a 1% increase, it would take 200-400 haste rating for a significant 20% speed increase, a pretty high bar.

Before BC, there were only a few sparse weapon procs (Empyrean Demolisher) and trinkets (mage/paladin BWL trinket, Kiss of the Spider) that provided haste.
Now they've added a couple more procs (some weapons and trinkets) and the player base welcomed them. So they just just decided to add the raw stat here and there and see how it's going going to be accepted or not.

Think about it like spell hit that was introduced about 2 years ago. A new stat that was present here and there, it become a very popular stat and no fight forced using it.

A bit of a tangent, but doesn't it strike anybody else as odd that mmo-champion is referring to this as a double world first kill? I don't want to downplay Nihilum, but since when is a PTR kill considered a world first? I know, it's just one website but I was curious if it piqued anybody else's interest.