Buiden

My biggest complaint with Hydross has been the inconsitency of his switching phases. It HAS to be a pulse because sometimes he just won't change until several seconds after he is way beyond his area. We've tried the MT intervening out and just running to let him switch, sometimes he'll be all the way onto the wooden planks before switching...

I think the simple solution to this would be, increase the frequency of the pulse, and make it where after he switches there's a 15 second cooldown on him switching again, would solve both issues.

Back to the DPS question. My guild found that we could make up a lot of DPS time on hydross by AEing the nature adds, they die incredibly quick and its enabled us to drop him ~20% per nature phase.

 

◊ Praetorian

I think it's just a strat question then. We don't discourage DoTs -- the only rule is that if you use DoTs, you move to the other side of the line while refreshing your DoTs as the 100% mark nears, so that if you do pull momentary aggro, he'll be moving deep into his new territory, not back towards the line. Last night we had an affliction lock and two shadow priests all at ~450k damage done (kill took 9:45 or so?), obviously with heavy DoT use.

The melee DPS numbers from Sebudai's WWS still astound me, though, and have half our melee classes scrutinizing it and armory profiles and such trying to figure out where the difference lies.

 

◊ Praetorian

Hold on, wait a minute.

In your WWS parse, Hydross received 4,543,480 damage total.

Hydross only has 3.7mil hitpoints.

Something is wrong there. Either it's a bug due to the fact that you have two people's logs (yours and Rikktor's) as the basis for the parse, or the bounds of the log are somehow inaccurate. I'd say the former, since the fight duration seems accurate.

 

Mearis

Praetorian PI is on the case!

I am also somewhat concerned about the DPS requirements for Hydross. My guild is a mix of some more casual players and some further hardcore players, and when we stack our raid quite heavily with most of our serious DPS classes, we can only pull off killing something like 3.5 - 4 channelers before Magtheridon comes alive. I wonder how much further we have to push until we reach sufficient DPS to tackle hydross, I suspect that we are extremly far.

 

rochan

Yeah, there is definately an error with that parse. There is just too much damage being dealt.

 

Tinuva

Well that is true, but what about the damage done to the adds? Surely enough of them can count up to the extra 0.8mil hitpoints?

Also is it possible that WWS can show damage done only to Hydross himself or is it just all damage done in the whole fight?

Few people can see the genius in someone who has offended them.
For in much wisdom is much grief, and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

 

Antarius

Maybe they were all just "really motivated"?

 

Zandig

Phew, I'm glad you caught that. I was doing what your rogues were doing and doing some armory hunting

 

◊ Praetorian

 

Morelis

http://grig.shackspace.com/wws-20070329-2007/index.html

WWS from our first kill, the rogue on top uses blade flurry but never actually hits anything with the extra attacks. This kill was right on the enrage timer.

What we've been doing with the adds is having melee switch to kill the first add, giving the new tank a headstart on threat, then we switch back to hydross. Ranged kills the adds except for the SP who stays on Hydross the whole time. We're pretty conservative on DOTs, and encourage people to err on the side of caution.

 

Dawme

Well, magtheridon's channellers and Hydross are 2 very different fights. We usually kill the 4th channeller right when magtheridon releases (without any pots/flasks) but we never ever killed hydross without dps flasks. For some reasons, we always wipe without flasks and kill him easily (sometimes 1 minute or more before enrage !) with flasks. Really don't know why. We also kill leotheras a few secs before the enrage, with flasks.
Just try the fight, if you can survive until the enrage and get him to 30% or so, it should be ok with flasks. Consumables really make a difference on hydross, they let you dps faster hydross, dps faster the adds which means you can put 1-2 more people on hydross, etc..

 

Tinuva

Ok now I am with you, that cant be exactly right ;(

Few people can see the genius in someone who has offended them.
For in much wisdom is much grief, and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

 

Crazytrucker

Hey been reading a lot on this fight. Our guild just reformed after being broken for a few months pre-bc and going into bc, we downed mag our first week back and were looking for hydross. My question is we have 3-5 well geared warlocks. Reading that the adds have 55k-60k hp I saw a video of warlocks Seed of Coruptioning the boss to aoe down the adds. I really like this idea, we have 2 geared druid tanks with 300 of each resist on at the same time and was wondering how fesable is this? We would probubly pull all dps off the boss to help stun the adds as they come out for like 3-6 secounds for the MT to get aggro then it would be on the druids and warlocks for adds just aoe them down while keeping as much DPS on hydross as possible. Any suggestions? Also is it only good in nature phase or could it work well in frost also?

So doing tests warlocks I'd assume could do 2k minimum seed damage.

With 3 warlocks with 2 secound cast would = 20 secounds and all adds would die.
With 5 warlocks = 12 secounds.

Resonable or are we better off doing the traditional way.

 

Lycur

This assumption fails, horrendously. About 1400-1600 to each add is a much more reasonable number.

 

◊ Quigon

Why does that parse fail? 5 swaps makes for about 1 million additional HP on his adds. I don't know how wws works, but perhaps it wasn't synced right.

 

• Snowy

Because Gurgthock said this:

We're talking only about damage done to Hydross, which WWS can break out. Something definitely doesn't add up... or rather adds up too much.

 

◊ Praetorian

Read the second link I excerpted. WoW Web Stats just parses a combat log and creates a very detailed report of the fight, damage and healing done/taken by each actor, sources and types of damage, etc. It's really worth checking out: http://lossendil.fr/serendipity/

Anyway, according to that parse, over the course of the fight...

Nature adds took 1.18mil: http://juggernautguild.com/wws/wws-2...ofhydross.html
Frost adds took 925.7k: http://juggernautguild.com/wws/wws-2...ofhydross.html

AND

Hydross took 4.54mil: http://juggernautguild.com/wws/wws-2...eunstable.html

The parse is simply corrupted somehow, likely because it used a combination of two source logs (perhaps with different system clocks and thus inconsistent timestamps?)

Basically all the values are inflated by about 30%.

 

◊ Quigon

Yeah I see.

I recall us trying to set our damage parser to 1 mob before and it failed because not everyone had the appropriate version, so the "sync" failed, and some reported total damage, some only target specific damage. This might have been a different mod as well.

So it sounds like either a bad sync for a lot of people, or a parse that wasn't reset - with the add damage so high as well it definitely leans toward a non reset .

 

Sebudai

How embarrassing! I am very sorry about the inaccurate data. Gurgthock was correct and combining mine and Rikktor's logs threw it off somehow. Anyway, I re-did the parse using only my log and the damage done to Hydross is accurate now. Crookgrin actually did about 1125 dps.

The stats listed now should be correct. I apologize again.

Anyway, the main point of posting the stats wasn't really to show the total damage a rogue could do, but mainly to show how well they do in comparison to the other classes.

Now to check all of our other parses to see if the same thing is happening...

Here's a link to the current stats for the discussion: http://www.juggernautguild.com/wws/w...919/index.html

 

Rikktor

The moving for DoTs idea is an interesting one; every time that I've killed Hydross I've made sure that none of my DoTs are ticking on transitions which can create a window of upwards of 10 seconds in which I get no damage from them. But I'm curious as to how your tanks grab aggro quickly and consistently. I've only had one instance in which I've left DoTs on, and Siphon Life ticked virtually immediately after the transition and the mob ran over to me before the tank was able to put some threat onto the mob. Is this just an anomaly in the timing or do tanks have something special that they're doing (to the best of my knowledge our tanks build up a close to a full rage bar and unload on transition, not sure on the ability rotation)?

Perhaps I'll risk the raid and give it a shot next time! Also, I feel obligated to apologize for the inaccuracies in our WWS, I'll try to compare my system time to Sebudai's later tonight to see if that's the issue...

 

Nakilos

Thats still really respectable damage either way. We tried out an Enhancement Shaman on our Magtheridon tonight + 1 other shaman in the caster groups and we shaved off 2 minutes from our previous kill time with the same number of healers so I am looking forward to trying out SSC with shamans, and definately interested to see how we can improve on Hydross.

 

◊ Asgorath

Apologies if this is redundant, but I'd recommend sending your original logs over to lossendil so he can fix WWS if it's to blame here. Either way, it would be great to understand why your original parse was off by so much.

 

Edgewalker

The greatest group DPS increasing synergy in the game is an enhancement shaman/warrior/rogue/rogue/feral druid group.
A lot of the disappointment's we see in end game raiding now with melee damage output are directly related to bad play, bad group composition, and a stack of classes that add absolutely nothing to the melee table (shadow priests, warlocks, and mages oh my). Properly stacked though, there are no reasons rogues and DPS warriors can't retain their exact positions on the meters as pre-BC on 90% of fights.

 

◊ Praetorian

Oh, absolutely. Melee are very good on Hydross -- I was just wondering whether to be berating our rogues for being unable to manage 1400 sustained DPS. Alas, I'll have to find some other reason.

Also, FWIW, it's definitely something on Rikktor's end. Any WWS parse that includes a log from him ends up inaccurate -- the two others are your 3/23 Hydross and 3/26 Morogrim. Everything else seems correct.

 

• tsigo

Very odd.