We are about to start working on Void Reaver and have read in many places that it is generally effective to minimize melee dps on this fight (Yay thanks for another one Blizz >.<) since rogues and other melee need to run out of the 18 yard range of his "Pounding" damage. So you get 10 seconds in there to dps and then run out again. Having read that Pounding does 6750+ maximum damage to someone in its area of effect, have any guilds found it effective to suit there rogues up in the blue scryers arcane resist sets and other arcane resist gear to get a respectable resist rate (I am thinking like 250 buffed) and just have the rogues stay in and heal through it? I was thinking if that could be mitigated to 2-3 k per pop, hots plus ILotP would be able to keep rogues on him full time (being careful to manage aggro, obviously).
I go there with 200 resi unbuffed, full stamina sockets, works ok with 12k hp. We have two shamans chainhealing melee. 2 rogue, 2 dps warrior, 2 pro warrior and a feral.
Running out isn't an issue. If you can't hit him with melee then he can't hit you with pounding basically (his hitbox is huge). Take one step backwards and you are no longer getting hit and the DPS requirements for the fight aren't that high assuming no one in your raid dies that is so doesn't matter that melee isn't the best for the fight. Also none of our melee wears anything besides the arcane resist trinket from Karazhan at most.
What Cryect said. Big hitbox, not a DPS race fight really. Rogues be fine. No need for AR.
Mostly-off-topic: Anyone able to shed light on whether the demons in VR's room are bugged (banishable but not), or is it just Blizzard being funny and forcing you to wipe the first time?
One of our warriors reported tonight that he was able to stand at a precise position where he was out of range of the pounding but was in range to hit him. He is a Tauren so it might have something to do with the unique hitbox.
Mostly-off-topic: Anyone able to shed light on whether the demons in VR's room are bugged (banishable but not), or is it just Blizzard being funny and forcing you to wipe the first time?
They really need to fix those demons. Either make them banishable or make thier saw blade's obey line of sight. The trash in his room is just painful right now.
Have to admit though, the laughter on vent the first time we banished them was pretty great.
To the OP: Rogues are on top of our damage meters. 2x shamans spamming chain heal keeps up our 3 rogues and 1 fury war np. Tonight our top 3 healers were myself, the other shaman, and a priest prayer of mending.
To the OP: Rogues are on top of our damage meters. 2x shamans spamming chain heal keeps up our 3 rogues and 1 fury war np. Tonight our top 3 healers were myself, the other shaman, and a priest prayer of mending.
How did the priest top the meters, given that prayer of mending isn't awarded as healing to the priest? OR you have a mod that somehow corrects the healing after?
One of our warriors reported tonight that he was able to stand at a precise position where he was out of range of the pounding but was in range to hit him. He is a Tauren so it might have something to do with the unique hitbox.
With specials or just auto attacks? There's always been a small dead zone where you can auto attack a mob, but are still technically out of range, thus preventing the use of specials. It's what I referred to as the "Twilight Zone" when it was first noticed on Chromaggus back in the day where you could be out of LOS on Chromaggus for the breaths while still auto attacking (yet were too far out of range to use specials) which somehow considered you to be within LOS for the breaths. A confirmation of the bug (and a slow and painful death courtesy of ignite flesh) lead to screams over vent to turn off auto attacks while ducking the breaths. I've noticed it on a few other bosses (especially ones with larger hit boxes) so this could be very well be what your warrior has found. I'm assuming the slightly larger hitbox for Tauren is what is allowing him to edge just a bit closer to that zone and be able to use his specials as well.
They really need to fix those demons. Either make them banishable or make thier saw blade's obey line of sight. The trash in his room is just painful right now.
Have to admit though, the laughter on vent the first time we banished them was pretty great.
Their saw blades do obey LOS (or we would be wiping a lot every time we clear the room). They target random people who are in range but they don't actually throw them if they don't have LOS. Now the heal doesn't obey LOS.
I could have sworn the first time we tried those packs (after the LOL WTF IT'S BANISHED BUT KILLING US attempt) people were getting sawed out of LOS.
Either way, once you get used to the pulls they're not bad, I actually like them far better than the mindless blood elf trash where you just sheep and yell at retards who used shadow fiend.
This fight is absolutely doable with a few melee; chain heal is your friend.
A kill of ours:
Another key to effectively using melee DPS is keeping them in melee range full time, and being able to sustain healing through every pounding. If melees ever move out slightly they become at risk of being targetted by a short-range orb, which can be disastrous. As for threat, rogues can easily utilize vanish etc to stay comfortably below the MTs on threat, but fury warriors are a huge liability. Ours has progressed from steady DPS at the start, to autoattacks only after a couple tank swaps, to doing nothing until we hit 19%, at which point we tell him to pull hate and die. Anything more ambitious is a swift death sentence for him.
A lot of guides and videos make it seem like more than one or two melee on Void Reaver will doom you, but that opinion is probably just very stereotypically rooted. Don't get stuck in this mindset and just be aware of the proper steps to address having melees in your raid, if you wanna bring them.
Are your warlocks all destro? Their dps is embarasing. Even a decent warlock should beat a great rogue in dps on a fight like VR. Almost every 25 man we run, the top 3-4 dpsers are locks followed by rogues and SP's. Locks are usually a good bit ahead of everyone though. I can't say it's because our rogues are bad because they are some of the best I've seen. For example, last night when we did magtheridon i didn't start dpsing until all adds were down. I was on banish, CoT, fear duty. When he fell i was #1 on DPS by ~20000.
are your warlocks all destro? their dps is embarassing. Even a decent warlock should beat a great rogue in dps on a fight like VR. Almost every 25 man we run. the top 3-4 dpsers are locks followed by rogues and SPs usually. Locks are usually a good bit ahead of everyone though. I cant say its because our rogues are bad because they are some of the best ive seen. For example, last night when we did magtheridon i didnt start dpsing until all adds were down. I was on banish CoT Fear duty. When he fell i was #1 on DPS by ~20000.
So umm, maybe your other DPS sucks? (EDIT: Realm forum says your guild has killed Gruul? Not a slag, but if that's true you're probably not in the best position to judge where different classes should be on damage meters on VR)
If you keep Rogues in always then I wouldn't be surprised they did a bit more DPS.
Last kill we had 4 warlocks topping the meter, but they went something like:
The first two were ahead by a bit, as you might imagine. Like many other fights VR is a movement fight for most classes and this puts Warlocks out front. However if you keep rogues in and just heal them, as the above indicated, then they don't have to move at all and will easily bridge the gap.
Thus explaining the DM above, and the warlock order in my guild fight - our rogues did not stay in and so were behind.
Last edited by Lamaros : 04/18/07 at 6:16 AM.
Reason: justifiy to who?
So umm, maybe your other DPS sucks? (EDIT: Realm forum says your guild has killed Gruul? Not a slag, but if that's true you're probably not in the best position to judge where different classes should be on damage meters on VR)
If you keep Rogues in always then I wouldn't be surprised they did a bit more DPS.
Last kill we had 4 warlocks topping the meter, but they went something like:
The first two were ahead by a bit, as you might imagine. Like many other fights VR is a movement fight for most classes and this puts Warlocks out front. However if you keep rogues in and just heal them, as the above indicated, then they don't have to move at all and will easily bridge the gap.
Thus explaining the DM above, and the warlock order in my guild fight - our rogues did not stay in and so were behind.
Nah our other dps doesnt suck. We normally take down gruul ~6-7 growths which i think is impressive. At least on our server it is. I do understand where you are coming from though, with the melee staying in the whole time, it makes it less of a movement fight for the melee classes thus allowing them to dps more.
BTW how do you like that demo build? Honestly ive never put more than 5 points in demo so im interested.
To give you some dps ratio's for my guild i will show you some dmg screens and then elaborate on them.
This is Gruul Dmg Meter, after the shatter change, noone should be dying and doing max dps, fairly static, ranged should be superior, due to no need to move after shatter.
Dmg Meters from Hydross, we keep him in nature phase. Again, Max Dps (though he is poison/nature immune), kind of the new patchwork
Void Reaver, Melee in 200+ Arcane Resist Gear, Ranged in plain DPS, i didnt move out and was on duty to announce what ranged got the swirly ball so they could move appropiatly. As melee i was majorly gimped on my hit rating and i didnt reposition as he was turning all the time to shoot his orb nuke.
overall we generally buff. it prevents wipes due to OOM, enrage timers and so on. which means caster have a shadow priest and curses up, melees get battleshout and windfury (and the occasional feral druid if not tanking)
Edit: And i still wonder why our raidleader doesnt bring more rogues
Edit2: wtf, i really managed to grab all those screenshots with lineups where we didnt bring shadowpriests o.O
Yeah what is up with your caster damage on void reaver? We had 4 mages at 300k or above damage last night. You must have some amazing melee, granted we haven't been running with a shaman recently and therefore our melee must run out. (@Berticus).
To the OP, stop worrying about resists. There are so many fights that at a glance look like they require resist gear, but once you ultimately understand the fight you find that resist gear is pointless.
To the OP, stop worrying about resists. There are so many fights that at a glance look like they require resist gear, but once you ultimately understand the fight you find that resist gear is pointless.
Yah I generally do not assume something is a resist fight until it clearly shows itself to be. It was just that the only writing I saw on the matter really downplayed melee dps as a liability so I wanted to throw this question out there to see how other guilds dealt with it. Thank you for your reply and for everyone else's in the thread it was very helpful. Looking forward to pulling him tomorrow (but not the trash on the way, bleh, lol).
well rogues being on top of dps meter has something to do with aggro resets. the main tanks you use will take a lot of aggro reduction. casters are generally just aggro capped. I only use touch/pain/flay there, no VE and no mind blast/sdw death and I still end up taking aggro below 20% sometimes. put a hunter with a shadow priest and he can do some serious dps in that fight.
Wasn't really paying attention to what our rogues were doing, but they were using little AR gear and still doing good damage. If they were running out, they certainly weren't running all that far. The hitting while out of range of the AE is probably unique to taurens, so I wouldn't count on being able to do that.
Also, the trash, aside from having 3x more HP than it needs, really isn't bad at all. The banish thing is obviously retarded, but after we learned that lesson we had no problems positioning the demons so they weren't sawblading anyone that wasn't standing in range. In our second night in TK we cleared to void reaver in about 1hr 45 minutes, which included a wipe due to banish (our first night we had no warlocks, so didn't find it out til our second raid in there). If the cut the HP of those sentinels down by 50%+, and lower the HP of all the other mobs by 25-50%, you'd actually have a somewhat decent trash clear. The blood elf packs are so goddamn boring, but I guess make for a decent time to watch something on youtube while mindlessly spamming whatever buttons you normally press.
I could have sworn the first time we tried those packs (after the LOL WTF IT'S BANISHED BUT KILLING US attempt) people were getting sawed out of LOS.
Either way, once you get used to the pulls they're not bad, I actually like them far better than the mindless blood elf trash where you just sheep and yell at retards who used shadow fiend.
They do and don't ignore LOS, the demon will target someone and if they are in los throw saws at them and other people. These other saws will ignore los.
04/17/07, 6:21 PM
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