We're trying the "paladin tank by the graves" strategy, which overall for use seems to be the right way to go. When the paladin lives, we're able to gather the murlocs up and AoE them down pretty well. When he doesn't, things go wrong.
We assigned a second paladin for BoSac and healing on the tank, but inevitably the murloc tank would just fall over dead. Do other guilds have the graves healer help out on murloc tank healing? What gear setup are your paladins wearing (full tank, mix of healing, etc)?
I believe our paladin just wears a bit more stamina gear, and we have one person assigned to him during murloc phases as well as him healing himself(after the initial big holy light on the tapping warlock to get agro).
A prot paladin in full tank gear, or nearly all tank gear plus about 2-300 spellpower should have no trouble staying up. We don't have any prot pally raiders, but we do have an alt that's geared up just about totally in Karazhan who tanks just fine- Profile at http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#c...moon&n=Juadafi
Add in BoSac, and one healer + hots will keep him up. If you have a druid or priest healing graves along with a paladin healer on the paladin tank, you should be more than fine.
I'm eager to give the tanking by the grave strat a try as well, since we have the fight down just fine, except when the tanking paladin eats a grave- We have a backup pally tank in his pvp healing gear for -5 crit + good stamina/spellpower, but even so when the main tank gets graved, the shaman assigned to raid healing nearly always eats a fast death, or one or two murlocs get loose and gib a caster/ multishotting hunter.
Eliminating any chance of the murloc tank getting stuck in a grave sounds like it would be by far the best way to remove any chance of bad luck-induced wipes.
If our awesome-gear druid tanks are there, we use one of them to tank Morogrim (downside is a potentially larger spike with multiple crushings, but he takes smaller overall hits) so that our prot warriors can TC-tank the murlocs.) We haven't had issues with MT spike damage killing them, we had pally/pally/priest/druid healing him on our first kill this week.
We've had a druid MT on Morogrim himself ever since our first attempt where a warrior was just taking too much spike damage. The max crush we ever see on the druid is maybe 6k, and with 19.7k health a 6k hit is not much to deal with. The warrior we tried was our normal MT- 14744 unbuffed hp, 16307 ac, and 24.9/17.6/21.9 dodge/parry/block. We just kept getting a string of unavoided hits, usually capped with an 8500 crush on the end that would put the tank down too fast to deal with.
Very ocaisionally our druid tank gets smacked with three 6k crushes back to back, so we have to be very careful to keep him topped up, but I think it still works out to be less dangerous than warr tanking was.
I've found that two tree druids keeping three stack lifeblooms in addition to rejuv, takes a ton of the edge off the MT healing. We generally use paladin/shaman/druid/druid on the MT, so that's two swiftmend/3 NS to keep us out of trouble. The lifeblooms and rejuvs let myself and the pally cast-cancel large heals, while the massed hots nearly instantly heal up his 3-4k normal swings.
I have a question about the water. Will it be not toxic (hot) if Lurker is still alive?
Would you say that killing Lurker before makes it harder to kill Morogrim because of the toxic (hot) water?
I have a question about the water. Will it be not toxic (hot) if Lurker is still alive?
Would you say that killing Lurker before makes it harder to kill Morogrim because of the toxic (hot) water?
If you haven't killed Lurker:
If you kill all the trash around lurker (on the 6 platforms) then the water will be scalding.
If you haven't killed all that trash, it won't be.
If you have killed Lurker:
The water will not be scalding or populated with fish, it just becomes plain normal water.
If you haven't killed Lurker:
If you kill all the trash around lurker (on the 6 platforms) then the water will be scalding.
If you haven't killed all that trash, it won't be.
If you have killed Lurker:
The water will not be scalding or populated with fish, it just becomes plain normal water.
we use 2 tanks (sometimes 3) grabbing the murlocs as they spawn/run in, holding them as well as they can with tclap/demo and such, and dragging them into the middle. then we also have a 'tank' mage that wears high +stam gear, in a group with devo aura + imp. we've also given that mage tank pots (flask, stoneskin) to really make him hearty. obviously that mage does the aoeing first, with no salv on, and then calls for the rest to aoe after a second or two.
We are planning to do this next time around, we still haven't killed Tidewalker, we've tried everything and it seems to be we lose the healers to the murlocs or the AOEers themselves.
We're finishing up gear, but we expect the mage to have around 16-17k HP fully raid buffed.
Question though, would a Holy/Prot Paladin (41/20) with Imp Righteous Fury beat a Mage in threat generation while using only consecrate? If that's not the case, why don't we make the Paladin go all Stamina gear and do the same thing with Plate?
While the Mage tank strat obviosuly works for some, you make a lot of work for your healers on a fight that is already punishing for them with the MT taking bucketloads of damage and people getting graved/earthquake.
If your healers can handle it and you are prepared to fight healer-heavy in the raid then fine, otherwise I'd say a Paladin tank spamming threat from heals/consecrate is a lot easier. The only thing with Paladin strat is that your AoE has to come in a big rush so timing is important - if you don't get it right the AoE team is in danger from Murlocs who aren't quite dead yet (they WILL out-aggro the Paladin once AoE starts unless he is full tankadin spec).
We went with a Holy Paladin wearing some tank gear, spamming the clothies as soon as Earthquake hits. We just practiced the Nova/Seed/Flamestrike/AoE timing until everyone had their timing spot on. If the Paladin gets graved at an inopportune moment it can get messy, but even then we usually recover ok as we have spare Warriors and Ferals to gather them up with an AoE taunt rotation.
I wanna emphasize to anyone using one paladin tank how much easier it is to tank Morogrim up in the entrance to Fathom-Lord's tunnel, and keep the paladin tank down near the graves, OUT of grave range. Put a life-tapping warlock next to him for agro. It imparts an element of 100% control in what can be an otherwise extremely frustrating luck based fight.
With the paladin tank + his healers + the grave healer all out of grave range, there is simply no bad luck element to account for due to graves. At worst, 2 of your MT healers will get graved, but you can easily call that on vent and the raid healers can step in until you run back. We were using the other pally tank method, having him stand right on top of Morogrim with all the murlocs, so that we took advantage of all the bonus damage from the AoE, but a bad luck grave can just screw you too badly. Even with a backup paladin, and aoe taunts from the warriors, it can still go to shit all too easily. The control you gain by moving murloc tank spots is *well* worth the loss of the added AoE dps on Morogrim. It's not like he has an enrage timer, anyhow.
We switched from having the paladin tank (s) positioned on Morogrim for a little extra dps on morogrim to having a paladin tank stand by the watery graves out of range of being graved himself and it was by far our cleanest kill. In the previous couple of weeks, we would always have to deal with several wipes to try to repeat kills and simply not having the murloc tank and his healers graved solved one part of the randomness. Now, if two MT healers still get graved, it can get a bit hairy, but we'll have to deal with it.
My experience is limited to SSC and The Eye, but this is the only fight where a raid can benefit from having 8+ healers for redundancy.
Two tree druids keeping up a full set of hots on the MT goes a long way to smoothing out any spikes the tank might take, which is more than enough for two healers to keep up if two get graved. (We have 4 people on the tank.)
We went with a Holy Paladin wearing some tank gear, spamming the clothies as soon as Earthquake hits. We just practiced the Nova/Seed/Flamestrike/AoE timing until everyone had their timing spot on. If the Paladin gets graved at an inopportune moment it can get messy, but even then we usually recover ok as we have spare Warriors and Ferals to gather them up with an AoE taunt rotation.
We tried that yesterday, a Holy/Prot (41/20) Paladin with Imp Righteous Fury, the 2 resto druids, and the 2 Priests (including myself) pulled aggro from healing the MT. Does our Paladin downright suck? What needs to be done here?
We tried that yesterday, a Holy/Prot (41/20) Paladin with Imp Righteous Fury, the 2 resto druids, and the 2 Priests (including myself) pulled aggro from healing the MT. Does our Paladin downright suck? What needs to be done here?
I have had no problems getting aggro during the quake, even with other healers continuing to heal.
I usually instruct our spot healers not to heal the mages during the quake and I quickly top them off with HL9 / HL11 as well as myself. I am able usually to get 3-4 heals worth of aggro during that time, and it seems to be sufficient.
The only time that I have ever lost aggro was due to another paladin crit LoH the MT for 12k or something like that, so your paladin should have no problem getting aggro. I don't believe large druid heals should cause any problems, but if they do make sure your tanking paladin is aware and BoPs that druid.
It's very important that he has a target to heal with as many healing buffs as possible, meaning BoL, Amp Magic, and possibly tree aura depending on raid setup. Assigning a warlock that will ensure his HP is near zero works the best, just make sure the warlock remember to lifetap!
If all that is done, then I (with salv and -15% threat from talents) can drop at least one big heal on the MT, and one chainheal without getting eaten.
We tried that yesterday, a Holy/Prot (41/20) Paladin with Imp Righteous Fury, the 2 resto druids, and the 2 Priests (including myself) pulled aggro from healing the MT. Does our Paladin downright suck? What needs to be done here?
We occasionally had this problem early on. I'm usually be able to get 2 (sometimes 3) Holy Light's off on low targets, depending on positioning. Thats a very fixed threat cap for other healers, so they need to be mindful. Tell your healers not to raid heal (stay on the tank) until the murlocs have reached the paladin and gotten a consecrate tick off. Don't have HoT's up on the raid going into the earthquake. Make sure nobody is healing the paladin's Holy Light targets.
This number seems completely irrational to me, please explain, because essentially it would mean there is no way you could pull aggro over the paladin.
I couldn't find the diagramm posted by Pinchet a few pages back about the grave healers position and unfortunately didn't save it myself.
Could someone give me a link to it or send it to me?
As far as I know, healing threat is split amongst all mobs you are in combat with, which would give you a margin of about 3400 per healer, more if they have their own -threat talents.
This number seems completely irrational to me, please explain, because essentially it would mean there is no way you could pull aggro over the paladin.
In my experience, my HL's are significantly lower in tank gear (and I often only get 2 off), so this initial healing number is probably off.
As far as I know, healing threat is split amongst all mobs you are in combat with, which would give you a margin of about 3400 per healer, more if they have their own -threat talents.
I don't think that would make much a difference considering you would add (1/13) to each side of the equation, and they would cancel each other out regardless.
I think the actual answer is that you need ~290% more healing to steal aggro from the paladin.
This number seems completely irrational to me, please explain, because essentially it would mean there is no way you could pull aggro over the paladin.
A few things:
1) Don't paladin heals do half the threat of normal heals? So .25?
2) Improved Righteous Fury reads: While Righteous Fury is active, all damage taken is reduced by 6% and increases the amount of threat generated by your Righteous Fury spell by 50%. Since RF increases threat by 60%, doesn't Imp RF give 90%? Therefore your multiplier is 1.9, not 1.6*1.5 = 2.4.
If these two assumptions are right, then: 12000*.25*1.9 = .5*.7*X, which yields X = ~16k healing (from a non-paladin) needed to match threat, without threat modifying talents, enchants or Tranquil Air. A paladin could heal 32k before hitting the cap.
06/22/07, 2:11 PM
