Just looking to get a quick answer on self healing threat in this fight. We have a prot pally tanking the murlocks, healing a lock with the +30% healing armor on. Because of this his total healing done to the lock was much higher than to any other class. Now while I know that healing others causes .5 threat for every point of healing done, there is some confusion about if self healing does .5, 1 or 2 pts of threat for every point of self healing done.
Self healing doesn't cause more threat than healing other players. Unless something has changed with the healing threat mechanic since my healing days (pre-BC), all healing does .5 threat per point of effective healing done, modified by threat talents (Paladin passive threat reduction, Righteous Fury, and Imp. Righteous Fury, in this case), then split among all mobs whose threat list you are on.
If I recall correctly, I think Imp. Righteous Fury results in a 90% increase in threat, which, given the innate additional 50% threat reduction from pally heals (thanks Ulfgar), means each point of effective healing would be .475 threat (.5 * .5 * 1.9). Since healing a life-tapping warlock (using fel armor) results in larger effective heals, this method is widely used to pull the murlocs to the pally. A pally healing himself tends not to work as well while murlocs are incoming since he can't damage himself safely and reliably to ensure that his heals are doing effective healing... besides which you don't want your murloc tank frantically trying to top himself off before the mobs he's supposed to be tanking arrive.
A pally healing himself tends not to work as well while murlocs are incoming since he can't damage himself safely and reliably to ensure that his heals are doing effective healing... besides which you don't want your murloc tank frantically trying to top himself off before the mobs he's supposed to be tanking arrive.
There's also an advantage to having someone else heal the Paladin in that it gives the Paladin more mana to work with.
Self healing doesn't cause more threat than healing other players. Unless something has changed with the healing threat mechanic since my healing days (pre-BC), all healing does .5 threat per point of effective healing done, modified by threat talents (Righteous Fury, and Imp. Righteous Fury, in this case), then split among all mobs whose threat list you are on.
If I recall correctly, I think Imp. Righteous Fury results in a 90% increase in threat, meaning each point of effective healing would be .95 threat. Since healing a life-tapping warlock (using fel armor) results in larger effective heals, this method is widely used to pull the murlocs to the pally. A pally healing himself tends not to work as well while murlocs are incoming since he can't damage himself safely and reliably to ensure that his heals are doing effective healing... besides which you don't want your murloc tank frantically trying to top himself off before the mobs he's supposed to be tanking arrive.
Mind pointing me towards the direction of the tests there ? Far as I always heard, self-healing generates double threat of healing other targets.
A prot paladin is a wonder for this fight. My paladin is prot spec and is the backup for hyjal. (He is an alt after all) What I do is 2 seconds before the murlocs come, I spam holy light on the designated warlock. This builds aggro onto me and i stand right behind Morogrim. I spam consecrate and holy shield of course and then everyone AoEs. This way morogrim takes damage too.
For this too work, you need very good gear and good healers as you will take damage from all the murlocs.
Self healing doesn't cause more threat than healing other players. Unless something has changed with the healing threat mechanic since my healing days (pre-BC), all healing does .5 threat per point of effective healing done, modified by threat talents (Righteous Fury, and Imp. Righteous Fury, in this case), then split among all mobs whose threat list you are on.
If I recall correctly, I think Imp. Righteous Fury results in a 90% increase in threat, meaning each point of effective healing would be .95 threat.
Paladin heals only generate 0.25 threat per point of healing done. Imp RF basically places you on an equal footing (actually slightly less) with other healers. However, assuming the other healers all have Salvation, having your prot paladin top up people after the earthquake should generate sufficient threat to aggro the murlocs.
I tanked the murlocs on every single one of our Morogrim kills from August to January. I've done it as both prot, holy, and hybrid in pally tank gear all using the heal a warlock, followed by tank the murlocs on his ass strategy. I maintain SoW/JoW on Morogrim while I do it. Only once in all those kills did we wipe because of myself getting graved... and I got graved 6 times in that fight, and one of the aoe taunt tanks got graved at the same time when we finally wiped.
As was said before, the grave has to occur at the exact instant before your first heal lands, your bubble has to be on cooldown, your aoe taunters have to have blown their's already or also be graved, mages frost nova's have to all be on cooldown, and your LoH has to be on cooldown (an 18k LoH pulls aggro fairly effectively in dire situations).
I'll easily take that 1 in a 1000 risk to minimize the risk of something else going wrong by adding the extra dps onto Morogrim. Our MT has easily died more times than something has gone wrong with the murlocs.
Paladin heals only generate 0.25 threat per point of healing done. Imp RF basically places you on an equal footing (actually slightly less) with other healers. However, assuming the other healers all have Salvation, having your prot paladin top up people after the earthquake should generate sufficient threat to aggro the murlocs.
You are correct, of course. I've changed my post to reflect my oversight, and the fact that pally healing with RF on would generate .475 threat per point of healing (.5 * .5 * 1.9)
Originally Posted by Duilliath
Mind pointing me towards the direction of the tests there ? Far as I always heard, self-healing generates double threat of healing other targets.
I can't find any reference anywhere, ever, to the notion that casting a heal on onesself generates double the threat. Healing has been demonstrated to cause .5 threat per point of effective healing (before class/talent modifiers are applied), and this has been readily accepted by the authors of the major threat mods and more raid healers than I can even imagine. I am 100% willing to admit that I am wrong, but despite my best efforts to try and find some evidence... ANY evidence that self healing causes double threat, I can not.
I scoured google, wowwiki, wowhealer, Kenco's threat guide (The author of KTM), and I'll PM Antiarc (the author of Omen), and still I can't yet find any reference to self-healing causing anything other than the usual .5 threat per effective point healed.
Where does this idea come from? I've been reading theorycraft boards for years, and this thread is the first I've heard of it. As is said before, I am totally willing to accept that my knowledge is not complete, but at this point I'm drawing a blank. Is there any evidence for it other than "it's what you've always heard" to be the case?
I was obsessed with healing theorycraft for years as well, and never heard healing yourself causes double threat.
It could be true, I just wonder why it isnt talked about more if so, leads me to be extremely skeptical that it has any basis in fact.
At this point, my best guess is that someone somewhere at some point in the past saw the statement "Healing yourself causes 1/2 threat", and they read it to mean "1 or 2" rather than "one-half".
Where does this idea come from? I've been reading theorycraft boards for years, and this thread is the first I've heard of it. As is said before, I am totally willing to accept that my knowledge is not complete, but at this point I'm drawing a blank. Is there any evidence for it other than "it's what you've always heard" to be the case?
The last time I healed was roughly when ZG was introduced, so it's been a while. Don't doubt that you're right - but I've simply not seen it stated other than "paladins get ... per heal, etc" - which basically always was when healing someone else.
If you're healing yourself, your tank is doing something wrong already anyway.
What I heard (<-- heard, not saw documented), due to (self) healing threat on yourself it'd make it more difficult for the tank to regain aggro.
Oh well - let's drop it, if it's basically accepted that it doesn't make a difference who heals what and it doesn't exactly fit in the thread either.
Mind pointing me towards the direction of the tests there ? Far as I always heard, self-healing generates double threat of healing other targets.
I've never seen or tested out anything to indicate that self-healing produces more threat than healing others. Anyone saying otherwise had better have some damned good numbers to back it up, because it's completely unsubstantiated by any test I've ever seen or done.
For any guilds just now learning Morogrim, I'd highly recommend using a Prot Paladin out of Grave range, generating aggro by healing a warlock with Fel Armor on. We tried that last week and one shot the boss on our first-ever attempt - killed him again this week with the same strat, so apparently not a fluke. With the recent buffs to Prot Pallies, it's not hard for them to get enough HP, and aggro on the murlocs seemed quite solid. *shrug* We haven't tried any other strategy for dealing with murlocs, but I can't see any way to make it easier.
We are casual and unlucky and tend to brute force things down vs finesse so this is what we do:
- one tank tanks him just inside the tunnel faced against the wall
- ranged/casters gather sort of behind him but down the tunnel a bit
- melee gets behind him
- 2 pallies stand sort of behind him (may run north and south to collect murlocs too)
- another tank (or anyone in tanky gear) stands south and another north to collect murlocs
- one healer stands south of the raid but not further south than the south tank to heal the graved (if they get graved then another healer runs to replace them)
When murlocs come the north and south tanks collect them, drag them behind tidewalker where the pallies consecrate then the raid aoe's them down (dps'ing tidewalker at the same time).
This doubling up and using lots of herders/tanks saves us because unlucky things like 3 of 4 of the herders and pallies being graved seem to happen a lot.
For any guilds just now learning Morogrim, I'd highly recommend using a Prot Paladin out of Grave range, generating aggro by healing a warlock with Fel Armor on. We tried that last week and one shot the boss on our first-ever attempt - killed him again this week with the same strat, so apparently not a fluke. With the recent buffs to Prot Pallies, it's not hard for them to get enough HP, and aggro on the murlocs seemed quite solid. *shrug* We haven't tried any other strategy for dealing with murlocs, but I can't see any way to make it easier.
I would agree. After a few too many nights wiping repeatedly on him, we turned to this kind of strategy, and it is fairly solid now.
We have a prot pally standing where Morogrim starts, with his healer (myself, holy pally specced into Imp RF, with a few bits of stamina gear) and possibly (but not essentially) a grave healer. Warlocks stand at the top of the ramp while Morogrim is tanked in the entrance to the tunnel. When the earthquake hits, healers have instructions to heal the MT only, and the warlocks lifetap while the holy & prot pallies heal them up. As soon as the murlocs reach consecration, the healers are told its safe to patch up the raid, and AoE starts shortly after.
The main reason for having a holy pally echoing the heal-aggro trick of the prot pally is to prevent mistakes on healing aggro - it could feasibly be done with just a prot pally. It's important to warn all healers that both of the pallies will take heavy damage - sometimes it proves difficult to heal through solo.
I would like to echo that the strategy with using a prot paladin tanking the murlocs out of grave range is a good way to go. Just make sure your token warlock stands out of range as well and lifetaps down to below 2k health at least. Toss 3 HL and some FoL if you have time, toss a consecrate, wait for the second group, call for AoE when you refresh consecrate, and you are golden. When he switches to the watery globules, everyone gathers at his feet and your warlock lifetaps to around 8k (earthquake will knock off a chunk), and you simply ask the AoE to hold until you have the 2nd group of murlocs for about 4 secs (you can call this out on vent/TS/etc.).
You can see how the process works. The watery globules switch happens at around 7:30ish if you wish to skip to that point. You can see one of our druids pops tranquility at the end when the murlocs come, but we recover from it pretty well. This was our 3rd kill of him, so mostly at level gear.
Some main things to note: The warlock had BoL, Amp. Magic, and Fel Armor. Everyone but myself and the MT had salv.
You can tell by how boring the video is that this method makes the fight pretty trivial.
Hello,
We are just now learning this fight, and I would like to show up tonight with the strategy mentioned above (Paladin tank outside of grave range). I have a few questions:
1. How many healers do you bring to this fight in total? We have been running SCC up to this point with 7 healers, is this enough? We've tried tidewalker 4 times, our best attempt getting him to 49%.
2. We have 3 healers on the MT at all times, 3 are assigned to raid heals, and one grave healer. With this new strat, we would take one of the raid healers and put him on the paladin tank outside of the grave range. This would put 2 healers in range of the paladin tank to keep him up during murlocs (I am going to tell the grave healer to heal the paladin tank when murlocs come). Am I right in assuming that these two healers will be enough to keep the paladin tank alive through ALL murlocs?
I am at work right now and cannot watch the video just yet
This is the tactic i used in my previous guild aswell as current guild and it works wonders. You can read some more detailed information on my site here : Macca's Morogrim Tactic
So how does it work?!!?
Tanking Druid sets himself up in a position shown in the screenshot above.
Misdirect from hunter positions the boss correctly.
Ranged DPS then move into position ensuring that they are in Line of sight of the Tanking Paladin. The reason for this is because that Paladin needs to be able to reach you with his heals so he can generate some quick aggro.
The tanking Paladin has ran himself 35 yards or so from the DPS group making sure he is more than Max distance from Morogrim. hopefully 50 yards or more.
Watery Graves hit...They target the 2x Water grave healers...Oh but they are at max distance which means 'No people watery graved'
EQ hits and the murlocs run in. Healing stops on the raid and only resumes once adaquate aggro is on the murlocs.
Warlocks spam SoC, mages AoE. The adds die in seconds guys.
Having the Paladin stood next to Morogrim is just asking for trouble in my opinion. The damage done to the boss is nothing like the damage done on Hydross for example. It has far too many negatives.
Move him away from the raid out of Watery Grave ranged mentioned many times in this thread and you are laughing.
I'd recommend 8 healers at the start until u get it down, but you can easily do it with 7 and having only 1 healer on the watery graves. The more healers u have, the less change your MT will die allowing you more time to get to know the fight.
Looks like basically the same strat as everyone else uses. I'd recommend having Warlocks (with Blessing of Light) lifetap, though, so that he has at least two targets who will definitely be down 8k+. (As an added bonus, he gets an extra 10% or whatever healing on them and they'll have Blessing of Light.)
Hello,
We are just now learning this fight, and I would like to show up tonight with the strategy mentioned above (Paladin tank outside of grave range). I have a few questions:
1. How many healers do you bring to this fight in total? We have been running SCC up to this point with 7 healers, is this enough? We've tried tidewalker 4 times, our best attempt getting him to 49%.
2. We have 3 healers on the MT at all times, 3 are assigned to raid heals, and one grave healer. With this new strat, we would take one of the raid healers and put him on the paladin tank outside of the grave range. This would put 2 healers in range of the paladin tank to keep him up during murlocs (I am going to tell the grave healer to heal the paladin tank when murlocs come). Am I right in assuming that these two healers will be enough to keep the paladin tank alive through ALL murlocs?
I am at work right now and cannot watch the video just yet
Thanks very much.
On our first attempt, we took 8 healers and had our best MT on Morogrim. One shot, no problems. Very easy. On our second and third weeks we used 7 healers, and didn't have our best geared tank along. Doable. However, your probably going to be trying FLK next, and I would NOT want to learn that fight with only 7 healers.
Our healing assignment is
The 4 best healers on the MT at all times, spamming high rank heals.
A shaman healer mostly on the MT but also does some raid healing - basically just topping up earthquake damage after the paladin tank has solid aggro - not before.
Our two lowest HP healers assigned to graves and the paladin tank. This is way more than enough except when people get graved just as the paladin picks up the murlocs. Even then, you have enough healing - you just need your grave/murloc healers to be awake and able to multitask.
Really, though, the key question is "what are you dying from"? If you do it right:
A murloc should never ever aggro anyone but the pally tank. If they do, someone is screwing up - probably the paladin, the warlock heal sponge, or the person who drew aggro.
Two healers should be enough to keep the pally tank up. If not, someone is screwing up - might be the paladin, or his healers. Double check his gear set - he will probably need a fair chunk of +healing for initial threat gen, but he'll stil need lots of stam, armor, and block value for survivability. If he's not surviving, make sure he's not wearing a dress or something... Also check the healers aren't standing in bad places or getting distracted at critical moments.
4-5 healers should be enough to keep the MT up. If not, someone is screwing up - could be a lot of things. Check for healers going OOM, people not using consumables, MT not getting all the pally auras/tree aura/warrior shouts/imp auras/totems he needs, undergeared healers, poor heal/rank choices, poor choice of healer classes, MT not using ironshield, people not keeping ALL useful debuffs on the boss, people knocking useful debuffs off the boss, etc.
If murlocs are kept under control, the murloc tank lives, and the MT lives...you should be golden, no?
My guild was able to take some of the points covered here into consideration and we got Morogrim to 35% the other night with the pally tank/pally on his but in the corner...Just for verification here if someone could respond...
The issues we continously had was other healers dying to murlocks by overthreating healing just on the MT or the pally tank getting graved (going to move the fight so this doesn't happen). Which gets me to my next thought, warrior/druid/pally tank prefered for this encounter? We had a warrior on him, but I am thinking from everything I have read Druid would be prefered here. Also can healers really continue to spam heals on the MT (without pulling threat) to keep him up when the murlocks come out with the pally healing a warlock with fel armor/amp magic/BoL on?
Now that being said when he hits 25% obviously everyone has to get at distance from the globules coming out do you keep him in the doorway then and move everyone while the pallys continue to do the 'heal the warlock bit' when the murlocks get brought out?
Also at work so I can't view a video atm...=/.
Thanks for anyone who can reply should bag this bugger tonight!
The issues we continously had was other healers dying to murlocks by overthreating healing just on the MT or the pally tank getting graved (going to move the fight so this doesn't happen). Which gets me to my next thought, warrior/druid/pally tank prefered for this encounter? We had a warrior on him, but I am thinking from everything I have read Druid would be prefered here. Also can healers really continue to spam heals on the MT (without pulling threat) to keep him up when the murlocks come out with the pally healing a warlock with fel armor/amp magic/BoL on?
Now that being said when he hits 25% obviously everyone has to get at distance from the globules coming out do you keep him in the doorway then and move everyone while the pallys continue to do the 'heal the warlock bit' when the murlocks get brought out?
If your healers are getting aggro on murlocs there are few things to look into:
Make sure all healers have salv, and your pally tank doesn't. (Obvious, I know.)
Check who is getting initial aggro. Double check who they're actually healing and what skills they're using. A paladin or a faded priest should be fine; a shaman popping chain heals is asking for trouble.
If you're using a warlock heal sponge, make sure he's got fel armor up, amplify magic, and Blessing of Light. Also remind him to tap aggressively, once earthquake hits he's safe as houses. Also make sure nobody heals him except the pally tank. This tactic will generate a ton of threat if executed correctly.
If the pally tank is surviving alright but murloc aggro is an issue, you may want him to stack a bit more +healing for initial aggro.
Basically, someone should be screwing up if healers are drawing aggro. I don't think we've ever had anyone other than a shadow priest (VE + VT) or a shaman (trying to use chain lightening to heal earthquake damage on the entire raid) draw aggro, and the answer in both cases was to get them to just sit on their hands until the pally tank had solid aggro.
Beyond that...yes, positioning will eliminate your pally tank getting graved. As for class...we've used a warrior every time. They eat the odd crushing, but nothing difficult to deal with. A druid tank should also work - really, just use your best geared tank. And yes, your MT healers should be safe to continue healing, but they should still be smart about it. Paladins have inately low threat, and priests can fade. Having everyone keep HoTs up can help as well, since that spreads healing threat out better than one giant crit. If you're still have problems, have your MT pop an Ironshield potion during Murlocs - it reduces incoming damage, meaning he'll need less healing.
Finally, after 25%, we relocate everyone into the hallway. Tank puts his back to a wall, Morogrim faces him. Melee stands behind him, and all ranged and healers stack up on the pally tank right next to Morogrim. This makes everything easier, since if anyone draws aggro on murlocs they'll run straight into the pally tank.
We've had morogrim on one-shot for a while, but something we still do that is very useful is have the 2nd prot war allocated to babysitting the murlocs as they run in. He piercing howls the north ones since they get there first, and calls out on TS who they have targetted. This has been a big help in making sure our healing pally gets the agro, as the only people who can accidentally out-agro him are the MT healers who obviously can't stop healing. But if they know murlocs are targetting them they can take a short break, fade if a priest, then start up again once the pally has locked down his healing agro. But honestly, if you have lifetapping warlocks and a RF pally, it's almost fool-proof.
We've always used a warrior to tank, mostly me. We have very well geared ferals, but they can do decent dps in cat, whereas a prot who's not tanking is kinda useless. So it's more efficient to let the warrior tank.
Last night we had alittle and a little learning curve. I do have a spriest in my raid I am going have him sit on his hands when the murlocks come out b/c they love him. Having warriors piercing howl/demo shout sounds good as well. We do use a Warrior as MT and I think I am going to get the pally to put a couple +healing pieces on as well.
We sadly weren't able to survive even the 3rd murlock pack last night. The first pack went great...murlocks ran by everyone to the pally tank in the grave area and his pally healer. The 2nd and 3rd pack would always kill at least 1 healer.
The strategy we used to get him to 35% where the pally tank can be graved just was too unstable for me...I hate luck to be a part of the equation if it can be ruled out...and find it makes for much solid long term kills even if the first couple are interesting.
Thanks you both for your responses, and to this thread and forum, to give a layout of what I did last night to make sure its sound was:
8 healers broken down into 2 pallys, 2 priests, and 4 druids.
Put a pally and priest for grave healing along with another pally healing down there on the Pally tank. Had all the ranged aoe on the top of the ramp, the other healers where at max range from the MT just incase the pally tank (or more so his healer) needed extra healing to stay up. Basically Mad hots on the MT from the druid lineup and priest...really the MT dying wasn't my issue last night it was the Pally Tank, his healer, or the fact the murlocks were playing drive by on people...but I just know this can work, and has obviously worked for many in the past.
If you see a failure in my setup let me know! Thanks.
Last night we had alittle and a little learning curve. I do have a spriest in my raid I am going have him sit on his hands when the murlocks come out b/c they love him. Having warriors piercing howl/demo shout sounds good as well. We do use a Warrior as MT and I think I am going to get the pally to put a couple +healing pieces on as well.
We sadly weren't able to survive even the 3rd murlock pack last night. The first pack went great...murlocks ran by everyone to the pally tank in the grave area and his pally healer. The 2nd and 3rd pack would always kill at least 1 healer.
The strategy we used to get him to 35% where the pally tank can be graved just was too unstable for me...I hate luck to be a part of the equation if it can be ruled out...and find it makes for much solid long term kills even if the first couple are interesting.
Thanks you both for your responses, and to this thread and forum, to give a layout of what I did last night to make sure its sound was:
8 healers broken down into 2 pallys, 2 priests, and 4 druids.
Put a pally and priest for grave healing along with another pally healing down there on the Pally tank. Had all the ranged aoe on the top of the ramp, the other healers where at max range from the MT just incase the pally tank (or more so his healer) needed extra healing to stay up. Basically Mad hots on the MT from the druid lineup and priest...really the MT dying wasn't my issue last night it was the Pally Tank, his healer, or the fact the murlocks were playing drive by on people...but I just know this can work, and has obviously worked for many in the past.
If you see a failure in my setup let me know! Thanks.
Priests can fade when the murlocs come out. Not that much different than sitting on their hands, but might help you out some.
Durn, consider having the spriest go nuts- no salv no fade. Even have VE up as well. As soon as he's nuked a couple times after an EQ, have him run to the pally tank. A pvp geared spriest will have plenty of survivability via resilience, shadowform, higher armor (than an avg clothie), not to mention can shield himself.
- Have an offtank help babysit murlocs
- Have a pally tank generate healing threat
- Have an spriest generate VE healing and dmg threat
Multiple methods of control = epic amounts of win.
Perhaps a murloc group of 2 warlocks, 1 spriest, 2 pallies?
Warlocks for imp as well as higher dps output thanks to spriest.
Spriest for passive healing to the pally tank and self.
Pally tank and pally tank healer.
01/15/08, 4:04 PM
With the recent buffs to Prot Pallies, it's not hard for them to get enough HP, and aggro on the murlocs seemed quite solid. *shrug* We haven't tried any other strategy for dealing with murlocs, but I can't see any way to make it easier.
