I did a quick search and didn't find much discussion on this so I figured I would post up my idea's. Aside from the massive effort it would take to itemize all of the Azeroth dungeon's to level 70 I am having a hard time figuring out why this concept would not be implemented. It provides a "replay" value of sorts and could even be used to further raid progression as well as additional content options for those that cannot be part of 25 man raiding. I think that the heroic concept is a wonderful addition to WoW and wish that it was implemented much sooner, the idea of running through Orgrimmar to do a heroic RFC as alliance could be quite a challenge. Granted we all ran UBRS, Strat, Scholo till we were blue in the face but how many times did you run Shadowfang Keep? I am betting once or not at all, this is rather unfortunate in my eyes as there are so many good low level dungeons out there that could be used more.
If they do anything like this, I believe it will be through the Caverns of Time. Tigole stated they had a lot of ideas in mind for CoT, in a thread where someone requested quests in Old Hillsbrad.
All I gotta say is heroic Deadmines! Greatest instance ever conceived. I don't even care if the loot is the exact same as normal or total crap. I just want a lvl 70 elite ver of deadmines.
There are some interesting encounters in the lowbie instances.... I still remember my first Shadowfang Keep. The last boss was awe inspiring for a little level 25 having to chase the dude all over the place.
"There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge." - Bertrand Russell
SM would be a joke in comparison to Gnomergan or even BRD.
Kinda depends. I could see certain spots being very reminscent off Heroic Shattered Halls, or perhaps worse depending on the abilites they gave them. Not to mention, that place is packed with mobs that heal and dispel, giving certain group make ups a hard time on CC.
That being said, the first big room in BRD I can see being not fun with mobs that hit like trucks either.
Duty is heavier than a mountain, Death is lighter than a feather.
I wouldn't be surprised if they do this eventually. We now know that Blizzard has had their hands very full with the Patch To End All Patches, so I can see why it hasn't come yet. Hey, maybe it'll get tacked onto 2.1 though, right after they make Gruul drop "The Kitchen Sink"?
As someone said in another thread, though, I wonder how they'd balance it within the framework of existing heroics. Many of the old-world 5 mans have no associated rep, or are impractical to gain (like Shen'Dralar in Dire Maul). Plus, some of the obvious reps are Alliance or Horde specific, like Gnomregan. Would they just eliminate keys for the old instances? In that case, some people would just farm them instead of bothering to rep up for the current heroics. Maybe make it something arbitrary, like revered or exalted with all 5 of the current heroic factions? Would the loot be better, sidegrade, or worse compared to the current heroics? You wouldn't get me within 100 miles of Heroic Maraudon if the loot wasn't up to par.
It's a fun concept, but there are some implementation details to work through. I'd run a few just to see the places again (Deadmines, Shadowfang) but most of the old instances would need amazing loot to lure me in.
Last edited by Docjowles : 04/25/07 at 11:45 AM.
Reason: Typos
I'd really like to see them expand the concept of heroics. I think in terms of old world dungeons, level 70 heroic versions of a few particular dungeons would be awesome. In particular, the 2 winged Dungeons (Scarlet Monestary and Dire Maul) would seem to lend themselves to this idea very well. I'd rather not see heroic versions of some of the old style sprawling hodgepodge dungeons like BRD and Mara as I perfer the compact and efficient layouts of winged dungeons.
Heroic versions of ZG and AQ20 might be interesting as well, but would probably require significantly more development effort.
Possibly more so than reitemising, the bulk of the task would be in making the bosses interesting. The vast majority of them were pretty dull and straightforward, especially compared to those in the Outland instances, and so would require a lot of new abilities and tweaking to make them fun again.
Obviously, like many others I'd love to see it, though, just to experience these places properly without having to start another character. It would make Azeroth somewhat relevant again as it's sadly (but understandably) become virtually deserted since the expansion arrived. That said, the thought of heroic versions of the Dire Maul Prince and Krastinov from the Scholomance fill me with terror and there's no incentive on Earth that could make me want to enter the Wailing Caverns or Blackfathom Deeps again. A heroic Shadowfang, though, would be ten tons of amazingness, even with all the shadow immune werewolves ready to tear us apart!
Oh to pop into the Undercity, see a ! and find Arugal Must Die! Again!...
I honestly don't see any of this happening for a while down the road, maybe not even until the next expansion or later. Although it may not be true for most of the posters here, a lot of these dungeons aren't "old" to a large portion of the WoW population, as some of them are freshly away from them and now doing TBC content.
I see heroic old world content as a way to perhaps lure some of the original WoW playerbase back once they feel a large enough portion of them have gone into retirement. Currently, this population is not near big enough to justify the work it would take to implement such a feature.
It could show up down the road as a Dungeon 2 maneuver - a next step in progression for the small group crowd, a source of ilvl 125-135 blues. Relative to the resources required to implement new content, Heroic-ifying older instances should be easier; no new models, areas, textures, animations, etc, just some boss scripts. Any art resources they could spare would be a plus (SM with new voices for new boss abilities!) but they wouldn't be a bottleneck.
One potential issue with adding heroic versions of Azeroth instances is an increased number of level 70 players that would be congregating in lower level zones. I believe that Blizzard wants to maintain the lower-level experiences in the game, and bringing level 70s to the old world zones could cause some PVP imbalance issues. Certainly, level 70 players are free to do this already, but there is little incentive.
However, using the Caverns of Time to create heroic instances is an interesting way to solve both of these problems.
I honestly don't see any of this happening for a while down the road, maybe not even until the next expansion or later. Although it may not be true for most of the posters here, a lot of these dungeons aren't "old" to a large portion of the WoW population, as some of them are freshly away from them and now doing TBC content.
I see heroic old world content as a way to perhaps lure some of the original WoW playerbase back once they feel a large enough portion of them have gone into retirement. Currently, this population is not near big enough to justify the work it would take to implement such a feature.
Justification would be rather easy imo. Think of it like this. Unused content is dead content thus players are either a) spending their time in another aspect of the game b) not playing the game but keeping their account active c) not playing the game and no active account. Naturally for Blizzard that want to keep active accounts and usually the only way to do that is to give players content, loot, experiences.
Heroic Mr.Smite would be some serious assbeat, not to mention being a Horde player from the start I've only actually been inside Deadmines all of once to get a twink a chest. I don't remember much of it other than Cookie the Murloc Chef
I think the main aspect that would make this happen is the fact that it's a lot faster to make heroic versions of old dungeons than new dungeons - and more content is always good.
Personally would love to see many of the old world instance turned into heroic versions of themselves in some shape or form. When reading the quest description and the story followup for many of the instances they make them out to be much harder then they actually are. Even the RFC backstory of the shadow council plotting to overthrow Thrall. Sounds pretty epic to me, but alas you inflitrate RFC as a lowbie to find out information and take out leaders. To me it would be awesome to do these on heroic.
Theres many ways to implement these in form of progression. However to me I'd like to think they would become a 'tier 2' version for the 5 man crowd. A stepup from the first heroics. Harder then the ones before but not that much harder, just in the aspect that they expect you to gear up in the previous heroics before tackling the new ones. These new ones would be itemizied exactly like the heroics now except with new badges 'that are spent on higher iLvL purchased epics' and higher iLvL blues off most of the bosses, with of course the last boss dropping an epic etc.
Of course to implement this you would have to change a lot of script to these mobs and bosses to make them more difficult but I can't see that being way too hard. Some old world instances have the potential to instantly become of heroic status as they're scripted good. Others, of course would take a lot of work to do. SFK and Deadmines would be a sick edition to heroics, as would Dire Maul, Blackrock Depths (which would possibly need a 3 day timer due to the shear length of it, this would be the raid dungeon of 5 mans if heroic), and even Uldaman.
Think for example of a retuned Uldaman. Ironya could possibly come out with a partner in which you have to have a caster tank it. The fight would be similiar to and based off the twin emperor fight with a few changes (like if they teleport you get 5 seconds to reposition, but they're immune). They each would have unique abilities and of course if brought close enough heal each other. Damage to one results in damage to the other as the damage is split. The dwarf boss could act as a firemaw type fight using LoS to stop the stacking now AoE flame buffet. The difficulty would be dealing with his adds quickily then slowing withering him down using LoS. Grimlok could have ambushers constantly be rushing into the room as you fight him etc, not really sure about him. The room where you summon golems could have a 5th statue that is activated after killing the others resulting in a brand new boss. And well of course, I think the last boss is perfectly scripted for heroics already, would just need to be tuned for level 70's.
I think thats a good example of a level 70 heroic Uldaman. I wouldn't ask for every old world instance to be retuned, but a few of them could easily be transformed as the ground work is already there. Ultimately it would come down to throwing in new abilities, itemizing it, and retuning it for level 70s.
Interesting idea, I hope in some shape or form its implemented.
If they did a Heroic Molten Core, you'd not awaken Rags 'too soon,' you'd have to face him at full power. While the vast majority of Molten Core is quite hellish, the Rags fight always makes a hell of an impression when you first see him arrive.
Hmm... Perhaps a CoT instance for MC could be just Domo/Rags. Something like a heroic version of Gruul's Lair.
I'm still looking forward to Grim Batol being developed given the cool story line associated with it.
I would say that it might not make economic sense for Blizzard to do it, but I hear people bring this idea up so often that I'm starting to think otherwise.
While they probably have the resources to do old world Heroics, it seems like they have a policy of emphasizing new content development. Or at least that's the impression I got as I gritted my teeth killing post-C'Thun trash when Naxxramas and the expansion were not released yet but being hyped up a lot. It definitely seems like they're willing to allow some roughness remain in the old world zones if they have some huge new thing coming soon. If Naxx weren't planned then I bet they would have put more polish into AQ40, but the speed at which it got replaced by newer content meant that it wouldn't be a good use of testing/designer resources.
This isn't to say that they don't go back and tweak old stuff. They certainly do, but it seems to make up at most 20% of their design focus. Given the choice between Uldaman 2.0 and something like the new level 70 Outlands outdoor group quests, they've been focusing on the latter to keep people playing.
Old world dungeons are, for the most part, too damn long. Arcatraz feels long enough already compared to most TBC instances, and it's tiny compared to old world instances. Blizz would have to be selective in the dungeons they pick, there wouldn't be many people clamouring for a full Maruadon/BRD heroic run.
With the talk of Deathwing and Grim Batol, I can't help but wonder if they're planning to revisit the old world in a significant manner for the next (or some future) expansion. They could easily create an entire expansion out of making the old world fly-able, and then add numerous high level areas only accessible via flying mount. Such an expansion would also be a great time to add heroic modes on old instances.
Also, they wouldn't need to use the CoT excuse for such instances. The heroic mode could be a natural story progression from the dungeon's state after you beat it in non-heroic. Live side Strat would be in chaos as the Scarlet Crusade comes to the realization that their leader was a Nathrezim. The emperor's son in Blackrock Depths plans a counterattack after you killed his father. Etc.
Old world dungeons are, for the most part, too damn long. Arcatraz feels long enough already compared to most TBC instances, and it's tiny compared to old world instances. Blizz would have to be selective in the dungeons they pick, there wouldn't be many people clamouring for a full Maruadon/BRD heroic run.
BRD (and Maru) can be thought of as "winged" in a sense though, because of the different themes/missions and paths through the dungeons you can take. If they went whole hog on the raid timer approach, and linked sections of trash in a larger heroic to some bosses, you could split up a clear of Heroic BRD over a couple nights or something. Its more complex for Blizzard than just jacking up the difficulty level of SM/DM, but I think it'd be pretty fun.
This isn't to say that they don't go back and tweak old stuff. They certainly do, but it seems to make up at most 20% of their design focus. Given the choice between Uldaman 2.0 and something like the new level 70 Outlands outdoor group quests, they've been focusing on the latter to keep people playing.
Right...I'd figure that they'd leave the old world dungeons without heroic options so that people still enjoy them on their alts. I mean, I love Gnomeregan as much as the next guy, but if I've run it 10 times on my main trying to get the epic Mekgineer Thermaplugg bomb trinket, or whatever, I'm probably just not going to care about getting Triprunner Dungarees on my level 30 hunter or whatever.
There was a whole thread on Deadmines here, and one of the things I recall people noting was that Deadmines was fun because it was straightforward and forgiven to mistakes and party makeup. When you start throwing around new mechanics and trash that is completely absurd, it's going to ruin the feelings you have for that instance - I love Deadmines, I don't even generally mind running my friends through it, but I think that if I had to deal with it on heroic, I'd lose a lot of it's appeal.
And specifically with Uldaman - they can/could add a dungeon to Uldum, something I see as much more likely than heroic Uldaman.
I think they need to remake the lost content first. Scarlet Monestary is still as relevant for a level 38 as it was a year ago. The same cannot be said for a level 60 and Scholomance.
Made a warlock lately? Tried to get your epic mount lately? Good luck. At least the horde paladin mount only requires one pull from the beginning of dead strat, assuming you've got someone that was there pre-xpac.
The first thing they need to do is put in a heroic mode for DM, Scholo, Strat, and BRS. If they do that, they'll gain a ton of puggable 5-man content that people will wax poetic over, and casuals can farm for gear. Lots of gain, very little loss there.
Don't do BRD or anything lower, as those instances are still relevant to their targetted player group.
04/25/07, 10:57 AM
Love the idea, though.
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