I'm curious for those of you who have moved past Kara/Gruul/Mag if it's any easier to not pull aggro? I'm facing many aggro difficulties on quite a few fights (Prince in particular, but Nightbane and a few others can be problems) and just wondered if it gets any better. Do the tanks tend to get more rage? Are there less aggro resets, or tank "downtimes" (ala Gruul) in future fights in general?

I get very frustrated at times because it feels like when you upgrade your gear you're not really getting any extra DPS, but instead are just having to hold back more and more.

Does it get any better?

In any fight like Prince where ranged do nothing but stand there and nuke, there will be aggro problems... the game is balanced to virtually ensure that. but those fights aren't the norm, not even close.

I find that aggro only really becomes a problem in SSC when we pot to the gills, since consumables do nothing for your tank's threat generation - this problem will fade considerably in 2.1. A LOT of the fights in SSC have add mechanics, which will give you lots of things to blow up without having to worry about pulling aggro - and Lurker is Rag-style ranged-cannot-pull-aggro.

There are a few fights in SSC with aggro resets, Hydross on transitions from nature to frost stages, Leotheras resets on phase transitions and after whirlwinds. Morogrim puts a debuff on the tank that causes less aggro generation, but the murloc phases and Watery Grave make pulling aggro difficult for an AE class. It's not possible for a ranged DPS to pull aggro on Lurker, and since a tank has at least a couple minutes to build threat on Karathress before you start to DPS him, you won't pull threat. Regarding other instances, Magtheridon provides a required downtime for 10 (usually damage dealing) classes where you don't build any threat. Void Reaver in TK has a Broodlord-esque knockback effect that requires the use of several tanks, but because of the threat plateau threat does become an issue.

I haven't necessarily faced any huge issues regarding pulling aggro, you just have to time your DoTs and nukes to make sure that they don't hit after a transition on Leotheras/Hydross and Soulshatter at the right times during Void Reaver. Apart from those 3 mobs I have been able to nuke to my heart's content without ever pulling aggro.

There are three culprits when it comes to aggro:

1) Shadow priests on fights where VE is doing a lot of work
2) DPS warriors
3) Hunters who forget to feign

I basically never see anyone else pull aggro. #1 can be a real problem on some fights. A shadow priest who is healing his whole group can be putting out 1300-1400 TPS, which is more than any tank can match. For warriors, this mainly manifests itself in execute range (since execute gives bonus aggro -- a DPS warrior always seems to splatter at like 10% on Void Reaver) or early on. When we do Hydross with heavy consumables, bloodlusting in the melee group at the start is a recipe for disaster that results in a dead DPS warrior every single time. It's just too much threat.

Well, a tank's performance will most definitely drop when he upgrades his gear, and there's nothing he can possibly do to increase his threat generation except stacking a half useless stat. Someone who can clear half of his threat and can still reach the tank in five minutes should feel happy rather than frustrated really.

A lot of this could be solved if +hit was itemized in any meaningful amount, and if tank gear was itemized with a stat which mitigated block/dodge and parry. And I know weapon skill does this, the only thing you are going to see it on is on a weapon in a really meaningless amount.

I really feel like there needs to be another stat which is exclusively for tanking gear budgeted similarly to Feral AP which only negates block/dodge/parry, and has none of the other benefits (crit/hit). Otherwise we just end up in the same situation where better gear means worse threat generation overall.

Warlocks only have problems on fights with frequent aggro resets. If you're having problems on other fights there isn't much to say...

Edit, re the above:

Gruul no aggro problems.
Mag no aggro problems.
Hydross aggro problems, but can be offset by dpsing adds and getting on Hydross later.
Tidewalker no aggro problems.
Leo same aggro issues that everyone has to deal with.
Karathress no aggro issues.
Vashj (havn't done yet)
VR, no aggro issues.

Just to be clear, doesn't this mean you have to hold back substantially (for at least part of the fight) on every 25 man instance boss that ranged can actually pull aggro on? Also, is this with or without consumables that you have to hold back? I've only killed bosses through Gruul so I'm wondering what I have to look forward to as my guild progresses further. For me, on Gruul I have to hold back a great deal with no damage consumables, and eventually stopped using anything but food as the amount I was holding back meant I had plenty of mana. I'm not expecting to be able to go all out DoTs,MF,MB,SW: D rotations, but right now I can't even do DoTs.MF rotations without overtaking tanks on aggro.

Our mostlyMT (who is threat mad) has the 88 dps mace off lurker and some silly block value for shield slam, with windfury he can hit around 1100 tps. This isnt usually enough to stop our best geared ranged, infact one of our warlocks 'invented' the warlock vanish at void reaver last week (killing himself with soulstone) to beat the rogue for top spot. Obviously soulstones cant be wasted on any harder fight so we often give the tank a bloodlust to help him get ahead and stop any 'sorry I crit' moments.

I haven't encountered many problems with Gruul threat, but I'll agree with the others that heel pointed out. Void Reaver and Vashj seem to be the worst.

Do you guys use a threatmeter? Some of this simply doesn't sound realistic. Gruul I go all out ALL the time, after giving the tank a few seconds to position him and build some aggro ofc. Mind Blast + SDW Death every single CD. And we went there a few times with Leo flasks so I had above 1400 spelldmg easily. Our raids generally have two huntards using MD ofc, maybe you go without those?

Same on Magtherion. I mean you kill adds first. Our best kill we had the 5th add dead like 15-20s before the first Blast Wave. That still means that the tank had 20s to race ahead before we start touching maggy. I've never encountered any aggro issues after that.

And for Leo and Karath before the first WW and on first add, I mean, do you raid without hunters?
MDing especially on Fathom Lord gives you a really high dps increase. No warlock can outdmg a hunter for enough to make up for that initial MD which allows people to start dpsing right away.

The only fights where I am actually watching the threatmeter are Vashj P1 and Void Reaver. At Vashj it doesn't matter at all, we don't even have melees on her to avoid random 1 shotting. Dps up to 70% means nothing, you just need everyone alive and mostly on full mana (not hard for priests admittedly due to shadowfiend bugging out in p2). Void Reaver is the only fight where I am aggro capped, but that's the nature of the encounter.

Enhancement shamans. Oh my poor enhancement shaman...

Oops, sorry, my bad. Yes, them too.

I got both the Blackout Truncheon and Hourglass of the Unraveller this past week. Let's just say that last night's Karazhan without a paladin was expensive...

I've noticed our best geared warrior puts out about 800tps usually, while I put out around 1150tps. My guild maintains two maintanks, one warrior and one druid specifically for agro reasons. Plus, it is nice to have the versatility for maulgar/mag style fights where a giant special is what's going to kill a tank not crushings, but really I rolled the druid to tank agro sensative fights so our dps is not held back (my main was the agro-happy mage for years).
No one in my Karazhan group ever complains about about issues, while a few do in the other groups and a lot of people have commented on the difference when they get the chance to go with different groups.
Those numbers are comparisons from most Karazhan fights and tanking various entry-level 25man stuff. My peak is about 1350 with the ideal setup which is only really necessary on our 'strait to enrage Curator' and 'first Magtheridon add' kills. Overall there does not seem to be many agro issues in TBC, but should there be down the road I feel pretty confident about keeping a bear onhand.

One question I have about druid threat rates: are they more vunerable to dodge/parry/miss from fewer higher threat moves compared to the larger number so every cooldown can be used on threat generation style warriors have? No clue how the hell you can hold threat over a single evocate kill though on Curator. We do it with the melee on Curator the whole time and ranged killing adds with enhance shaman tanking sparks, then transition everyone to Curator for evocate. I can't hold it over a T2 BS Mace Rogue, but I can beat the feral druid going to town. So much threat being output.

Though it sure sucks when shield slam d/p/m at the very start Wish hard encounters had a way to remove an element of luck at the start that essentially controls if you have the chance to win or lose later. (Nightbane, I'm looking at you!)

We specifically don't use VE on Morogrim for that reason -- and the fact that it could be a lot of aggro generated toward incoming murlocs.

The hardest aggro problem for a dpser would be the last 20% of hydross (I haven't survived one kill where I actually burned him, expecially due to extra 'execute' damage)


But in general, most fights are dps races. DPS races are won by having your whole team do similar damage. I think most guilds that are killing bosses are not having threat issues.

So as a lock pulling aggro, I suppose volunteering yourself for CoS / CoE should solve that problem. (If you are not threat capped, the highest +damage lock should be putting coa, of course). If you think you're riding the threat cap, enchant subtelty. Similarly, a priest could not use VE and rely on healers to heal their group. And I suppose fury warriors would feel a lot safer with tranquil air totem from an enchancement shaman.

Gruul and Leotharas i agree with as being aggro sensitive. Magtheridon i guess it depends on what add you are at when the tank is picking him up and that can make a significant difference.

Hydross i have no aggro problems at all. VE doesn't really account for all that much aggro generally, atleast for my group. I stop Mindblasting and SWD while he is moving but usually won't cancel a channel. As soon as he changes i generally fade and keep going. Other than a few seconds while the tank is moving him i do not ever change my rotation and havn't ever pulled aggro on that fight.

Morogrim is pretty much the same way. After an earthquake i generally mind blast, mind flay then fade, then resume my normal cycle. We have no other healers assigned to my group so i am generating a lot of threat from VE aggro but i havn't had aggro problems on the murlocs for the last few weeks, save the attempt when i didn't get salv for some reason

I'd say it mainly has to do with how good or bad your tanks are, the way your tanks are specced, and the way you set up your MT group. I've raided with a couple different guilds, and a lot of different tanks.

In my first guild I had a very different look on aggro, I thought it was stupid that everone was aggro capped and it was just stupid game design, I was kind of angry about it, but just thought that was the way it was supposed to be, and it was frustrating. Playing alliance you never really knew who was a good tank and who wasn't...pre-expansion when alliance had blessing of salvation, you could have a full protection specced warrior that was absolutely awful and knew nothing about tanking but just mashed shield slam and sunder, and you could hold aggro on pretty much anything. Now that everyone has salv and the encounters are balanced accordingly, alliance tanks are suddenly exposed for the terrible tanks they really are.

I'd recommend looking at the TPS of your tanks, and try to figure out what they're doing wrong. The first guild I raided with didn't have any warriors for imp commanding shout in the MT group, so the MT had to do it and had no battleshout. They also never put a shaman in the main tank group (lol alliance, whats a shaman and how do we use them?). Then on top of that, none of the other warriors specced into imp tc/imp demo, so the main tank had to get those, and drop a few points in imp 1h spec. The result? About 650 average TPS, and terrible performance on any boss with an enrage timer because virtually your entire raid is aggro capped.

The other guild I raided with had probably the best tanks I've ever seen in this game, their MT, their OT, and their feral druid. All of them could pretty consistantly put out 1000 TPS, they all knew how to maximize their threat, they optimized the situation at all times, and the results were outstanding. Going from 650 TPS to 1000 or 1100 TPS on hydross, or the first add on karathress, for example, is definatley the difference between a kill and a wipe.

It really doesn't surprise me that the guy saying "I go all out all the time and I don't pull aggro" is horde, and the guy saying "I have to hold back substantially" is alliance. Alliance tanks just didn't have to care about maximizing their threat for almost two years, so its no surprise that a lot of them aren't as good at it as horde.

Heel: what we did on morogrim was right after each earthquake our priest would stop for 3 seconds while his whole group (mage x2, shama, lock) would get topped off by paladins. Said paladins get aggro on murlocks, said mages/locks kill murlocks, spriest never stops dps cycle as he lets the healers take the whole chunk of the healing threat. No tranquil air, a liiitle holding back in the precise second.

Also that fight lets you see the damage meter of everyone but mages and locks, who are obviously thremendously inflated.

Also you said bubble: you mean those victory happy party baloons that warn you that you're about to kill him? They do damage?

No, I meant Watery Grave. As far as VE healing goes: I like it; the fact that I am outputting less damage is largely irrelevant. The fact that the healers in the raid barely have to worry about my group is very nice. To clarify, aggro on the Murlocs isn't a problem - I fade it off. Built-up VE aggro on the big guy is the issue.