Tailoring sets supposedly nerfed on PTR - Page 3

RK · 04/30/07, 9:07 PM

Are they doing the same to the epic LW sets as well, or is this just a tailoring hit?

Elendril · 04/30/07, 9:07 PM

Originally Posted by RK

Are they doing the same to the epic LW sets as well, or is this just a tailoring hit?

The epic LW sets could use a reitemization pass for an entirely different reason :-P

lazerpewpew · 04/30/07, 9:07 PM

Originally Posted by lyquid

I understand why they did it, it's just unfortunate that this is the situation. I think its just their design philosophy biting them in the arse. They employed the same treatment to paladins to bring their healing back to where it should have been in the developers' minds. Instead of buffing all the remaining classes (priests, druids, shaman) they took the logical path of bringing the outlier back.

Instead of buffing T5/T6/Hyjal (and thus every set that would follow those sets), they chose to (unfortunately, yet logically) bring crafted cloth stuff back to where it 'should be'. Yea, it sucks for everyone who leveled tailoring but you really can't say you didn't see it coming if you understand how they make decisions.

Have you realized how dangerous it is to "Buff all the remaining classes"?

They basically need to retune every single boss in the end game, so they won't become too easy.

Alayne · 04/30/07, 9:09 PM

The most vexing thing was that the change didn't go in on the original PTR. If it had been known earlier, I'm sure that many casters wouldn't have dropped a second profession in the meantime.

Kalman · 04/30/07, 9:11 PM

Originally Posted by Opu

Totally agree with this post. The developers seem to think nerfing one thing counts as a real buff to something else -- this attitude is getting to be extremely frustrating.

I completely understand the nerf however, spriests and affliction locks waltzing around in gear that is as good or better in some cases than Black Temple loot is pretty absurd.

When playing whack-a-mole, you don't give every mole that's underground a whack in the ass, you hit the mole with its head sticking up.

Darkmantle · 04/30/07, 9:11 PM

Originally Posted by heebus

May I ask why you would be so pissed? We lose 34 shadow damage which according to the warlock dps spreadsheet is a loss of 5dps. Unless I did something wrong, they mainly changed this to make the set more mage friendly.

Untalented shadowbolt spam with no lag no crits and no resists gets 34/3.5 dps bonus from that much damage or ~10dps

Now calculating from my current 1094 dmg, 1094/34*5=161DPS. You are claiming I get 161 dps from my 1094 shadow damage. So with my sustained dps of 730 on Dr boom that means my base dps with no +dmg is 569 DPS. Do you see where I'm going here?

Either you stuffed up entering values into the spreadsheet or the spreadsheet is a truely horrible dps calculator.

The nerf while being significant and annoying is not that surprising, the sets were very optimised the bad itemisation of tier 4/5/6 didn't help, especially for affliction locks/spriests. The shadow weaving decrease is going to be a bigger hit than this but its certainly going to be a sad day on my warlock when I lose top stop on gruul

More significantly though is the hit shadowpriest longevity takes, with the shadow weaving nerf + the tailoring one spriest will find they are further away from that balancing point when they got enough mana back from VT to keep up their cycles.

Edit: Wow this is moving fast but my final point I missed that with the if the int is buffed too much then it becomes that most hated of warlock items, the int higher than stamina one >_<

2Edit:

Giving pure spell school damage stats on any item is always a bad idea and extends the lifespan of that item for an unnaturally long amount of time: either until you get a higher +school dmg in the same slot, or until ilvl increases to the point where you can get pure +dmg to the same amount, which is usually far longer than it should be.

Also, stacking +dmg to the exclusion of stats was a silly idea, unless they plan to continue that trend in almost all future itemisation. It's not secret that dps casters favour +dmg over Int or Sta to a degree that overcomes the natural hurdle of stat stacking on items.

The reason tailoring beats T4/5/6 for affliction locks and spriests is usually the crit, spriests also the spirit. If affliction and spriests had more use for crit then the tier sets wouldn't look anywhere near as bad. As it is the T6 screams that every warlock should go 21/40 to pump out the high damage shadowbolts.

lyquid · 04/30/07, 9:11 PM

Originally Posted by lazerpewpew

Have you realized how dangerous it is to "Buff all the remaining classes"?

They basically need to retune every single boss in the end game, so they won't become too easy.

Yea I completely understand why they did it, I was just citing it as an example of a similar decision. Upon reading a second time it does come off a bit QQish in that area, but it wasn't intended. :-)

Brakar · 04/30/07, 9:13 PM

Originally Posted by Litany

Though some kind of change was needed, I think, it's frustrating how they went about it, and it hints at a greater problem in itemization theory at Blizzard. These sets were excellently itemized. Aside from the fact that they had specific school damage, they just spent item points well. Now, they're removing damage and adding intellect? What? Poor itemization on tailoring items doesn't make tiered sets better. What needs to happen is more intelligent distribution of stats. They don't need to be perfect, but there's a huge margin between perfect and awful; somewhere closer to perfect than awful on the sliding bar would be nice.

It's more difficult for healing gear to quantify the benefits of healing vs. mp/5 for instance, but for DPS classes, aside from the quasi-benefits of stamina, it's almost pure math. Math that changes depending on spec, sure, but there's a best DPS spec for most classes too. Gear should be itemized towards that end. Anything else is nothing short of frustrating.

This is exactly the problem from a shadow priest perspective. Our tier gear is itemized like absolute crap with dozens of wasted points in spirit and spell crit. Shadow priests don't have another set that's good for shadow priests. We Frozen Shadoweave and that's pretty much it. Pre-SSC the best gear for us in the Shadoweave slots are blue. Shoulder and chest of the warlock dungeon set and Shattrah Jumpers, a quest reward. The T4 chest is a sidegrade as you lose stamina for some hit that you probably don't need assuming Spellstrike. This isn't because the Oblivion set is too good, it's that it's itemized very well for shadow priests. Good stam, decent int, lots of damage. Throw in hit on a couple of pieces and that's all I want or need. I don't need stupid amounts of int like T6. I don't need spirit. I don't need spell crit. None of these really do much for me.

Overall, the nerf isn't that bad from a dps perspective. For shdaowpriests it will be ~20dps nerf. The insulting part is we're already getting nerfed heavily in the patch. Do we really need even more of a nerf? If the nerf is to try and make other gear more appealing it will fail miserably. Without being completely sure of the reitemized T5 level gear and higher, Frozen Shadoweave is probably still the best until Black Temple. It makes our current gear worse and we stilll have no significant dps upgrades in game. I've complained loudly and vocally about the tiered gear. It has the ability to be better than the tailored gear, it just needs to be itemized sanely.

I'm tired of Blizzard responding to X is better than Y by nerfing X when they need to buff Y. Tailoring gear didn't need nerfing, the raid gear needed to be buffed and/or reitemized. Paladins didn't need nerfing (at least not to the degree they were), other healers need to be buffed. Anyway, enough rambling until I can calm down more from yet another slap in the face from Blizzard

Davidson · 04/30/07, 9:16 PM

Originally Posted by Opu

Totally agree with this post. The developers seem to think nerfing one thing counts as a real buff to something else -- this attitude is getting to be extremely frustrating.

I completely understand the nerf however, spriests and affliction locks waltzing around in gear that is as good or better in some cases than Black Temple loot is pretty absurd.

That's been the attitude of devs in pretty much every MMO I know about. Buffing everything else up to the level of one overpowered class/item/whatever is just bad use of resources.

Tibor · 04/30/07, 9:16 PM

Originally Posted by RK

Are they doing the same to the epic LW sets as well, or is this just a tailoring hit?

Nerfing the LWing sets would be like nerfing the Retribution tree. Oh wait. (Says the Hunter wearing the full Ebon Netherscale set.)

Manniefresh · 04/30/07, 9:22 PM

I would be totally okay with this if we had something worth upgrading to but as of now, tier 5 isn't exactly enticing. Nerfing this and barely buffing tier 5 is so ass-backwards that I don't even know where to start. The nerf also seems kinda pointless because it's not even big enough to make a difference between any of the tiered sets and the tailoring sets. Give me a reason to switch to tier 5 and I will be happy. I don't want the set to become the Benediction of Warlocks but it kinda seems like it is that.

I would laugh my ass off if they nerfed the Primal Mooncloth set.

lazerpewpew · 04/30/07, 9:22 PM

Let me repeat myself one more time before someone else brings up the subject "why don't they just buff all other healers?"

1: Balance is a delicate matter. Nerf 1 class to bring it more in line is easier to do it right than to buffing ALL OTHER classes, (not only healer, but DPS and tank as well)

2: They will need to retune every boss in the end game, to make sure they are challenging enough but not a pushover.

Originally Posted by Brakar

This is exactly the problem from a shadow priest perspective. Our tier gear is itemized like absolute crap with dozens of wasted points in spirit and spell crit. Shadow priests don't have another set that's good for shadow priests. We Frozen Shadoweave and that's pretty much it. Pre-SSC the best gear for us in the Shadoweave slots are blue. Shoulder and chest of the warlock dungeon set and Shattrah Jumpers, a quest reward. The T4 chest is a sidegrade as you lose stamina for some hit that you probably don't need assuming Spellstrike. This isn't because the Oblivion set is too good, it's that it's itemized very well for shadow priests. Good stam, decent int, lots of damage. Throw in hit on a couple of pieces and that's all I want or need. I don't need stupid amounts of int like T6. I don't need spirit. I don't need spell crit. None of these really do much for me.

Overall, the nerf isn't that bad from a dps perspective. For shdaowpriests it will be ~20dps nerf. The insulting part is we're already getting nerfed heavily in the patch. Do we really need even more of a nerf? If the nerf is to try and make other gear more appealing it will fail miserably. Without being completely sure of the reitemized T5 level gear and higher, Frozen Shadoweave is probably still the best until Black Temple. It makes our current gear worse and we stilll have no significant dps upgrades in game. I've complained loudly and vocally about the tiered gear. It has the ability to be better than the tailored gear, it just needs to be itemized sanely.

I'm tired of Blizzard responding to X is better than Y by nerfing X when they need to buff Y. Tailoring gear didn't need nerfing, the raid gear needed to be buffed and/or reitemized. Paladins didn't need nerfing (at least not to the degree they were), other healers need to be buffed. Anyway, enough rambling until I can calm down more from yet another slap in the face from Blizzard

Mordekhuul · 04/30/07, 9:33 PM

Would someone please post the changes here? Blizz servers are down, including their forums.

Just got to 351 tailoring last night after dropping mining 5 days ago =)

Dothorio · 04/30/07, 9:33 PM

Originally Posted by Snowy

I fully expect the Blizzard threads to erupt into a full blown whinefest, I hope we don't get that here. For the last several months, the common theme here has been "Tailoring items are why casters have been so overpowered vs other classes in raiding." Now they're nerfing them down a little bit, by the only way they can. They can't go and remove sockets from them now, because that would cause a shitstorm of epic proportions.

Can anyone really sit here and be surprised they're nerfing these? I wouldn't be surprised to see them nerf Spellstrike a little bit as well. But again, they can't really remove the sockets now, and that was what really put the items over the top.

I really doubt that tailoring is the reason of the caster dps dominance. I'd attribute that mainly to how warlocks and shadow priests work so well together, and the always good dps of a fire mage.

I think that once fewer mobs have a 360 degree cleave that melee dps will suddenly skyrocket again. More and more players are gearing themselves and the playing field will level.

It took me weeks after the expansion to finally switch and level tailoring, now that other players in my guild are starting to gear up the dps disparity isnt as much as it used to be.

Draele · 04/30/07, 9:33 PM

I seriously don't understand this. They need to change how Afflict. Warlocks and Shadowpriests work then. Lots and lots of +dmg is the way we gear. They finally give us gear that is itemized without wasting a bunch of stats and now nerf it because they don't fucking understand that we don't want the stats on tier 4/5.

Frozen Shadoweave is a set budgeted for stats we *actually* use. Why can't they just understand the reason we use this set is because we don't want crit, int, and spirit they shoved on our tier sets?