Tailoring sets supposedly nerfed on PTR - Page 3

Kaacee · 04/30/07, 9:42 PM

Originally Posted by MikeWis

The problem isn't with Frozen Shadoweave. Frozen Shadoweave is the solution to the problem. The problem is shitty item designers who don't know what stats are good for a class (+spell crit for a Shadow Priest? Christ, may as well throw some dodge on there, too, while you're at it).

Probably simpler to make crit a worthwhile stat for shadow priests.

Opu · 04/30/07, 9:45 PM

Buffing via nerf is certainly the most efficient way of bringing outliers back to the average. I'm with all of you on that. And yes, the loss of 34 damage is extremely minor in the long run. The most annoying part about this was that a large number of shadow priests were essentially gear capped with very minor improvements months away. Nerfing our best pieces without adding anything compelling in the tier 5 revamp coupled with a minor, but significant nerf to our damage output via talents and spell changes is frustrating, period.

It is a good thing that they are making these changes though as tailored casters are simply doing too much damage right now. Timing is more the source of my frustration, and its mostly coming from a selfish perspective.

Manniefresh · 04/30/07, 9:45 PM

Originally Posted by Kaacee

I'm in the same boat man. I read the PTR notes, there were no changes, so I switched to tailoring. If they nerf the sets I doubt there is any real good reason for me to have tailoring. Honestly, they need to add tailor only +healing/and +damage patches to make the profession worth having.

Well, it's not like the sets become completely worthless but tailoring does lose some value. I don't know if it's just on my server but tailoring for me has been completely worthless beyond the Shadoweave set, crafting Whitemend Pants for guildies, and bags for alts. It's not even worth making Spellthreads on my server as the Primal Manas are easily more expensive than I can actually sell the Spellthreads for. I just wish I had something to do with all this Shadowcloth I've piled up.

Davidson · 04/30/07, 9:49 PM

Originally Posted by MikeWis

The problem isn't that they need to BUFF the other gear. It's that they need to FIX it. It's not underpowered in the sense of being woefully under-budget (in most cases), it's underpowered in the sense that it's just poorly designed.

I don't necessarily have a problem with the idea of nerfing Frozen Shadoweave. It's a really, really good set. The problem I DO have is with the fact that they're nerfing it, rather than properly designing other sets. It's just laziness. If I had to take a nerf because the pieces were genuinely too good for how easy they are to acquire*, that'd be one thing. But it's not that they're too easy to get, or that they're too good. It's just that they are well designed, and other comparable gear is not.

The problem isn't with Frozen Shadoweave. Frozen Shadoweave is the solution to the problem. The problem is shitty item designers who don't know what stats are good for a class (+spell crit for a Shadow Priest? Christ, may as well throw some dodge on there, too, while you're at it).

* Anyone who says that they're easy to acquire hasn't actually leveled tailoring. (Why yes, I loved spending over 100g worth of materials and not even getting a skillpoint out of it. Having it happen twice in a row was just the laughter icing on the comedy cake!)

They don't want to give casters better gear, because they think casters are doing too much damage as it is. This is why they are nerfing the sets, while not fixing the other gear. If they fixed the other gear, then people would just use that, and the nerf wouldn't have the desired effect of lowering damage.

Balkoth · 04/30/07, 9:50 PM

Originally Posted by Kaacee

Probably simpler to make crit a worthwhile stat for shadow priests.

I agree and disagree.

It would make itemization simpler on Blizzard's end, and would allow us to actually effectively use some of the crit/damage items, vs passing on them for the mages and destruction warlocks.

On the other hand, it might "overpower" the spec again, and means that we'd have to compete on more items. I like being a spell damage nut. It sets me apart from the massive crit folks. And it's a unique feeling (well, Affliction Locks have it too) to be a person who doesn't really care about spell crit.

MikeWis · 04/30/07, 9:52 PM

Originally Posted by Kaacee

Probably simpler to make crit a worthwhile stat for shadow priests.

It'd be simpler to change the way Shadow Priest spells work in order to give them more than a passing benefit from crit, rather than simply removing the crit and adding more damage?

I would say that you have either a very odd, or very optimistic, idea of what is simple for Blizzard. On a completely unrelated note, it would be -awesome- to see Shadow Priests and Affliction 'Locks get some real good use out of +crit, like if their DoTs had a chance to be critically applied, doing +50% damage over their duration, or something like that. You could even add an extra change that a DoT could not crit while the target was already under the effect of that DoT from that caster (to prevent simply spamming the DoT until a critical one shows up).

But no, as it stands, it would probably be easier just to itemize the sets properly, rather than changing the class mechanics :P

Draele · 04/30/07, 9:53 PM

Originally Posted by MikeWis

The problem isn't with Frozen Shadoweave. Frozen Shadoweave is the solution to the problem. The problem is shitty item designers who don't know what stats are good for a class (+spell crit for a Shadow Priest? Christ, may as well throw some dodge on there, too, while you're at it).

QFT

Sapp · 04/30/07, 9:53 PM

Originally Posted by lordbalkoth

This doesn't seem to be a series of baby steps. I'm not sure what the issue is, perhaps a lack of communication at Blizzard itself?

They've had some pretty epic issues with version control in the recent past, too. Some big honkers are Aran's respawn-on-death, pets triggering flamewreaths, six-second Cstrike in the 2.0 era... so on. I bet everyone can think of an issue they've had on a personal level. There's plenty more, but those are the ones that come to mind most.

The timeline keeps going like this;
-Major patch/big hotfix occurs; a bug is fixed or a change is made.
(Version control issues occur here)
-Minor hotfix is issued on a topic unrelated to the earlier bugfixes.
-bug returns/changes are undone.

Then they compound the issue by either not noticing or officially responding to the problem until the next major patch or big hotfix.

lyquid · 04/30/07, 9:55 PM

The most annoying part about this was that a large number of shadow priests were essentially gear capped with very minor improvements months away. Nerfing our best pieces without adding anything compelling in the tier 5 revamp coupled with a minor, but significant nerf to our damage output via talents and spell changes is frustrating, period.

Really well worded in my opinion. Though I understand the motivation for them to put stats that only benefit smite builds (or any other non-raid-viable build for other classes), it's wrong. It's just flat out bad design philosophy. A set acquired through raiding should help your character progress in a raiding environment. If a player wants gear that's PvP oriented then the arenas are a great place to start.

Balkoth · 04/30/07, 9:56 PM

Originally Posted by lyquid

Really well worded in my opinion. Though I understand the motivation for them to put stats that only benefit smite builds (or any other non-raid-viable build for other classes), it's wrong. It's just flat out bad design philosophy. A set acquired through raiding should help your character progress in a raiding environment. If a player wants gear that's PvP oriented then the arenas are a great place to start.

The other explanation is that Blizzard doesn't want us to dish out any more damage, but is afraid of even more drastic changes to mechanics. So they itemize items horribly to limit us.

djor · 04/30/07, 9:56 PM

Originally Posted by Kaacee

Probably simpler to make crit a worthwhile stat for shadow priests.

I'd trade some spell damage modfiers for the chance for VE (once again!) and VT to crit.

RK · 04/30/07, 9:57 PM

Originally Posted by Tibor

Nerfing the LWing sets would be like nerfing the Retribution tree. Oh wait. (Says the Hunter wearing the full Ebon Netherscale set.)

I know it wouldn't make sense to nerf them, but that wasn't the question. I'm just seeking a yes or no answer as to whether the LW sets have also been nerfed.

Mordekhuul · 04/30/07, 9:59 PM

Originally Posted by lordbalkoth

For FSW:

50 -> 39 on shoulders.

72 -> 60 on chest.

57 -> 46 on boots.

And they gained some intellect.

Thank you. Further, mmo-champion posted pictures of the stats for both frozen shadoweave and spellfire on their front page.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=142.0

Brakar · 04/30/07, 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by lordbalkoth

The other explanation is that Blizzard doesn't want us to dish out any more damage, but is afraid of even more drastic changes to mechanics. So they itemize items horribly to limit us.

As I and others have said, if that's what they want fine. Nerf our damage and give us gear upgrades that actually mean something. They nerf the tailoring set and it's STILL hands down the best gear for those slots until T6 zones. We got the worst of both worlds. Getting heavily nerfed AND still having little to no gear progression.

duostrike · 04/30/07, 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by djor

I'd trade some spell damage modfiers for the chance for VE (once again!) and VT to crit.

The issue with VE/VT critting is that it already scales with +damage.

It's the exact same reason ignite doesn't crit nor does it get affected by debuffs such as imp scorch. The snowballing effect is not desirable for blizzard to balance around.

Manniefresh · 04/30/07, 10:02 PM

Tier 5 vs Frozen Shadoweave (assuming +9 gems in everything)

Shoulders

44 - 57

Chest

64 - 78

Total

108 - 135

I don't know how to do the math on the 4 piece set bonus so I'll leave that up to someone else. So there's a difference of 27 spell damage right there and the rest of the stats are neglible.

Tier 6 vs Frozen Shadoweave (assuming +9 gems in everything)

Shoulders

66 - 57

Chest

84 - 78

Total

150 - 135

So after maybe a year of progression for an average guild, a Warlock will be able to upgrade from two pieces of equipment that were available day 1 of the expansion for a whole 15 damage. Sure, tier 6 has more stam and wings but that's about it.

edit: bad math

Dendory · 04/30/07, 10:03 PM

Just great, and mages get yet another nerf just as a side-effect of this change intended for priests.

Seriously just nerfs ever since 2.0, not one buff.

lyquid · 04/30/07, 10:05 PM

Originally Posted by lordbalkoth

The other explanation is that Blizzard doesn't want us to dish out any more damage, but is afraid of even more drastic changes to mechanics. So they itemize items horribly to limit us.

Well I think we're treading down the path of assuming this was just aimed at lowering shadow priest damage, which I don't believe to be the case. I think it just happened to be an unfortunate side effect. In another light, I hope they may rethink the Shadow Weaving reduction or even, perhaps, increasing the threat reduction of Shadow Affinity.

modhelm · 04/30/07, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by Dendory

Just great, and mages get yet another nerf just as a side-effect of this change intended for priests.

This isn't "intended for priests" at all, perhaps you didn't notice that spellfire was nerfed as well?

This change was intended to make people stop comparing tailoring gear to tier 6, and start comparing it to tier 5... which is a bit more reasonable.

Litany · 04/30/07, 10:10 PM

Originally Posted by Elendril

Yeah, this is another reason the sets had to change. One of the challenges of itemization in WoW is how to make future items appealing, and one way to do that is to itemize introductory raid items suboptimally. Naxx gear stood head and shoulders over everything prior to it not only because it was higher ilvl, but because it was the first gear that didn't have throwaway stats like resists from MC/BWL or hybrid weirdness like in AQ. The tailoring sets are the opposite - they are too optimally itemized for introductory gear for anything to hope to eclipse them before we get many tiers down the road, and that makes for a lack of itemization progression.

So, maybe this is stating the obvious, but why not simply make all raid gear good? Even if tier2 was itemized really well, tier3 would still be significantly better (though maybe not head and shoulders better, as you put it). Isn't this the purpose of item level and the point system they have for itemizing? If they want a tier, for some reason, to be way better than the previous one, they can simply make the item levels a bit higher than normal. Simple as that.

Then, finally, we'd have clear progression and we wouldn't have bosses with half a loot table of instant DE loot.

It's too late now, I think, but I would hope they don't repeat this same mistake again. Or is there something I'm missing that makes this a necessary evil? Aside from the fact that we're never going to really have optimally itemized gear because it's difficult to say for sure exactly what that is, we could sure as hell be a lot better off than we are now.

duostrike · 04/30/07, 10:10 PM

Originally Posted by lyquid

Well I think we're treading down the path of assuming this was just aimed at lowering shadow priest damage, which I don't believe to be the case. I think it just happened to be an unfortunate side effect. In another light, I hope they may rethink the Shadow Weaving reduction or even, perhaps, increasing the threat reduction of Shadow Affinity.

No offense but shadow priests still will do ridiculous amounts of damage after the patch along with great utility in raids. I wouldn't be surprised if more nerfs are in the works down the line. I'm not saying this from a hateful "nerf priests" perspective but a fairly objective one. If I was a shadow priest I would just pray that blizzard doesn't look at shadowpriest balance again.

Balkoth · 04/30/07, 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by lyquid

In another light, I hope they may rethink the Shadow Weaving reduction or even, perhaps, increasing the threat reduction of Shadow Affinity.

We'll probably get buffed in Hyjal and Black Temple when the gear issue becomes apparent...but the Shadow Weaving nerf is probably here to stay.

The reason it frustrates me is that it will affect all future gameplay, including new content, new patches, and new expansions. It will always be 10%. At least, I'd bet money on it.

I wish Blizzard would either 1, stop nerfing the mechanics and nerf the gear instead, or 2, nerf the mechanics but make the gear worthwhile.

Balkoth · 04/30/07, 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by Litany

So, maybe this is stating the obvious, but why not simply make all raid gear good?

Because Blizzard has to balance boss hp and damage and whatnot around their items, and buffing all the raid gear would lead to them having to rework a ton of raid content to balance for it.

Balkoth · 04/30/07, 10:18 PM

Originally Posted by duostrike

No offense but shadow priests still will do ridiculous amounts of damage after the patch along with great utility in raids.

Yes, we will. In fact, we'll still be overpowered with 1-1.1k or more of damage before entering Karazhan.

It's the situation in Hyjal and Black Temple that I'm worried about.

The other area of concern is enrage timers. We'll need to offer viable DPS in order to be useful, because if a raid can't kill the boss in time then the amount of mana returned doesn't really matter. It's still a wipe.

Litany · 04/30/07, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by lordbalkoth

Because Blizzard has to balance boss hp and damage and whatnot around their items, and buffing all the raid gear would lead to them having to rework a ton of raid content to balance for it.

I said in the closing of my post that it was too late to do this now. If they did this from the start (or in the future), however, it would not be a problem, as content would be developed assuming the gear would be X powerful.