Elitist Jerks
Register
Blogs
Forums


Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Public Discussion

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 09/05/07, 12:57 AM   #51
PSGarak
Bald Bull
 
PSGarak's Avatar
 
Undead Warlock
 
Hyjal
I think there should be four categories, not three: buff, nerf, bug fix, and redesign. Redesign is often viewed as a solid buff or nerf by the community, and very often with good reason (instant attack normalization!) but at least comes with some sort of silver lining that makes them in some way not directly comparable (for this example, allowing broader itemization). Just my thought anyways. Thanks for the work you put into this, and I hope I didn't just give you too much more =P.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09/05/07, 5:47 AM   #52
Ichal
Don Flamenco
 
Ichal's Avatar
 
Sinnéd
Dwarf Paladin
 
No WoW Account (EU)
For paladins I'd call this one a bugfix:

1.10:

Judgement of Justice - This judgement will now always hit.

As 1.09 had (correctly a buff):

Judgements - Judgements that place a debuff on their victim will now all have their duration refreshed when the judging paladin strikes the victim with his or her melee swings. All these debuffs have had their duration decreased to 10 seconds. In addition, Judgements that place debuffs can no longer be resisted.

Denmark Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09/05/07, 6:33 AM   #53
nilme
Garona Halforcen
 
Orc Rogue
 
Dun Modr (EU)
Warlocks:
Soul Link - Percentage of damage split with pet has been reduced.

This is listed a as nerf(technically it is) but at the same time they did that, they changed soul link so it became an aura that didn't need to be recast, wasn't dispelable and also increased the damage you(and your pet) did. It went from a high mana cost dispelable spell that lasted for 30 seconds to a low mana cost permanent damage mitigation spell

Soul Link - This spell can no longer be partially dispelled off the warlock. In addition, Soul Link can no longer be used on non-demon pets.
MCing someone with engineering helmet and using SL on them was so funny


Rogues:
Eviscerate: Manual of Eviscerate (Rank 9) now drops off Blackhand Assassins in Black Rock Spire. In addition, Eviscerate now increases in potency with greater attack power.
I would say this was a buff. The important part of that change was the AP scaling, and it is listed as a buff on rupture and garrote.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09/05/07, 10:24 AM   #54
Groat
Von Kaiser
 
Groat's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Gorefiend
Originally Posted by PSGarak View Post
I think there should be four categories, not three: buff, nerf, bug fix, and redesign. Redesign is often viewed as a solid buff or nerf by the community, and very often with good reason (instant attack normalization!) but at least comes with some sort of silver lining that makes them in some way not directly comparable (for this example, allowing broader itemization). Just my thought anyways. Thanks for the work you put into this, and I hope I didn't just give you too much more =P.
If you take a look at my categories, I actually have six, not three.
Bugfix, Nerf, Buff, Change (for the stuff that is just different), New, and Overhaul (for any time they did something like "ALL NEW TALENTS" or other crazy things).

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09/05/07, 11:14 AM   #55
aleyro
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Blackrock
First off, excellent work.

Would it be at all possible to add the date to each patch, and perhaps a link to the patch notes?

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09/05/07, 11:17 AM   #56
Zupal
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Blackrock
I don't see the old angst-ridden mind soothe nerf. I think occurred maybe 3 months into the game. It was around the time that Maraudon was released since it was there that mind soothe was most effective for skipping pulls.

Mind soothe used to be instant cast and affected I think humanoids and beasts (maybe all?).

It was then heavily nerfed to have a cast time, affected only humanoids and could be resisted.

It was slightly buffed to be instant cast later but still was usuable only on humanoids and could be resisted.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09/05/07, 11:27 AM   #57
Vectivus
foreign contaminant
 
Vectivus's Avatar
 
Draenei Death Knight
 
Korgath
All this does is remind me that I rolled a Priest on the first day of live WoW under the misguided impression that Priests were still going to be a crowd-control class with Sleep.

Originally Posted by Betsy View Post
SHOULDA SUCKED DAT DICK!

Canada Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09/05/07, 11:48 AM   #58
• Chicken
 
 
Chicken's Avatar
 
Ginakursia
Goblin Warlock
 
No WoW Account (EU)
Originally Posted by JamesVZ View Post
Improved Hamstring - Design changed. No longer improves the movement slowing effect. It is now a 3 point talent that gives a 5/10/15% chance to immobilize the target for 5 seconds.

That is most definitely a nerf. Improved Hamstring used to increase the slowing effect by a pretty significant portion, if I recall correctly. Was one of, if not the best slowing ability in the game prior to this change.
As far as I can recall Hamstring was either changed in that patch, or shortly after that patch, to basically always have the "talented" amount of movement speed reduction.

Netherlands Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09/05/07, 12:14 PM   #59
Lookit
Piston Honda
 
Lookit's Avatar
 
Human Paladin
 
Skywall
To add a quick bit of pedantic minutiae, software version numbers are not based on the decimal system but instead are commonly identified by the structure major.minor.revision. This means that patch 1.9 precedes patch 1.10, even though this is obviously not the case in the decimal system. WoW has never had a patch 1.01, but rather had 1.1.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09/05/07, 12:25 PM   #60
Loeff
Von Kaiser
 
Loeff's Avatar
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
Terenas
A major thank you for putting this together. While we can all debate what is, or is not, a nerf/buff, we can't debate that these changes definitely happened. Also, it confirms something I have been saying for quite some time, that, at release, hunters were the least player-tested class. Which helps explain the more dramatic changes that class has undertaken.

One thing I did not see, that I remember happening, was an adjustment to "melee range" dropping it down to its current 5m. I guess that doesn't fall into a class change though as an overall game mechanic. Just to be certain, I am not remembering it wrong though, that did happen, yes?

Thanks again!

This space for rent.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09/06/07, 3:02 PM   #61
Groat
Von Kaiser
 
Groat's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Gorefiend
Heh, yeah, there were also a few changes that were massively substantial like when they redid the calculation for spells against targets that were +3 levels higher or more (back in release and for the first couple of patches there was a horrible hit rate against them - 2 levels higher and you could slaughter anything; three levels higher was miserable and four was suicide) - it completely revamped effectiveness in raids but was an overall game mechanics part.

And yeah, I can add a general section on when major patches released (I consolidated the minor patches into the major patches for the purpose of this) along with other info. We've been going quite a while now since the last major patch.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09/06/07, 3:47 PM   #62
Kewangeder
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Gilneas
Originally Posted by Loeff View Post
Also, it confirms something I have been saying for quite some time, that, at release, hunters were the least player-tested class. Which helps explain the more dramatic changes that class has undertaken.
It makes sense that hunters were the least playtested, if my memory is correct in that developers cited hunters as a sort of 11th-hour addition to the class set.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09/06/07, 6:40 PM   #63
the KRIS
Bald Bull
 
the KRIS's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Zul'Jin
Originally Posted by Kewangeder View Post
It makes sense that hunters were the least playtested, if my memory is correct in that developers cited hunters as a sort of 11th-hour addition to the class set.
Indeed. I get the impression rogues were initially intented to be the hybrid ranger class, and ended up becoming pure melee. With Night Elves in the game and no Ranger class, they had to act quickly to get one put into the game. Paladins and Hunters did not have talent trees a month before launch, so they literally squeaked those things in with no player testing. No wonder Pally and Hunter talents were the biggest mess at launch.

It's clear from the bizarre survival tree and the inclusion of abilities like Raptor Strike and Mongoose Bite that Hunters were meant to be a hybrid ranged/melee class. Mail was supposed to allow the hunter to be somewhat of a tank if they chose Survival, hence the inclusion of distracting shot and pet cower. It didn't work out so well, but a lot of those very bizarre talents are still in the survival tree. I genuinely wonder if anyone would even glance beyond the fourth tier of Survival if expose armor didn't exist.

United States Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09/07/07, 9:53 AM   #64
Ele'
Piston Honda
 
Ele''s Avatar
 
Human Warlock
 
Kirin Tor (EU)
I may have to read it again, but I think your list is missing some warlocks nerfs. To be more specific, I'm thinking about the diminution of the pet spellpower scaling, and the modification of Imp. Firebolt (whose efficiency was halved).

A blue post about that, I cannot remember the exact date of those nerfs but it could help.


(Well, some might think of it as "fixes", or even argue that Imp. Firebolt was bugged for a long time, but I'm sick of those kind of debates so I'll let you choose how you classify it)


Pretty interresting list, by the way

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09/07/07, 12:49 PM   #65
LodeRunner
Just an excitable boy
 
LodeRunner's Avatar
 
Undead Warrior
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Chicken View Post
As far as I can recall Hamstring was either changed in that patch, or shortly after that patch, to basically always have the "talented" amount of movement speed reduction.
Yeah, this is as I remember it. Originally Hamstring, untalented, did not slow as much as Wingclip. Only if you put talent points into it would it match Wingclip. In that patch described, they made Hamstring do the full previously talented slow amount and added the wingclip "rooted in place" effect to it.
Previously for any sort of pvp you HAD to have imp Hamstring. This patch made it an optional talent. I'd say buff.

United States Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09/08/07, 7:01 AM   #66
ildon
Collateral Damage
 
ildon's Avatar
 
Undead Priest
 
Whisperwind
Originally Posted by JamesVZ View Post
1.06
Improved Hamstring - Design changed. No longer improves the movement slowing effect. It is now a 3 point talent that gives a 5/10/15% chance to immobilize the target for 5 seconds.

That is most definitely a nerf. Improved Hamstring used to increase the slowing effect by a pretty significant portion, if I recall correctly. Was one of, if not the best slowing ability in the game prior to this change.
I can't agree with this. Although I think the new imp hamstring is pretty weak, I would consider the change overall a buff, because it greatly increased the effectiveness of hamstring for ALL warriors, and freed up some talent points for arms warriors so they didn't have to decide between 5/5 two handed weapons or weapon specialization, and imp hamstring. Plus right now in the game, I think hamstring is only beat out by crippling poison, frost trap, and maybe cone of cold for % snare.

Basically, I remember that before this change, if you didn't have imp hamstring, and you cast it on someone riding an epic mount, they could escape, but now they can't. Sounds like a buff to me.

Edit: Doh, guess I'm not the only one.

Last edited by ildon : 09/08/07 at 7:07 AM.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09/10/07, 12:30 PM   #67
GhostRogue
Glass Joe
 
Undead Rogue
 
Aerie Peak
Detect Traps is now a passive skill.
/Heartache

/Mourn death of Swirly Ball

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09/10/07, 6:07 PM   #68
 Tanilin
Look at me, I'm invisible!
 
Tanilin's Avatar
 
Dwarf Priest
 
Doomhammer
Interesting blog post, with an overall chart and some charts of individual class changes by patch (based on this data): We Can Fix That with Data / Charting WoW Balance Changes

I suppose Ms. Jensen must read here, so I'm a tiny bit surprised she didn't post this herself. The charts make the data much more interesting to me.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09/11/07, 12:19 PM   #69
radikal
Von Kaiser
 
radikal's Avatar
 
Human Mage
 
Black Dragonflight
The link with the charts is very interesting and really helps makes the data more comprehensible. It's a bit of an impossible task categorizing exactly what's a nerf and what's just a change, but despite that the results are not out of line with expectations.

Then again, there is only the notion of frequency and not severity, which can be a very dangerous way of thinking about things...

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 09/11/07, 12:59 PM   #70
Groat
Von Kaiser
 
Groat's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Gorefiend
Yeah - of course there are limitations to the presentation, but even still - I'm very impressed with that - I've got a few evil plans for things I can do with the data myself:
You can use 1px images to create your own charts with javascript and I can parse blocks to pull those out (weight it with that) - that was a very neat way of taking the data and presenting it that they did and I'm tempted to do something similar myself now.

I approve!

Offline
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Public Discussion

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
TBC Launch date? james The Dung Heap 3 10/17/06 3:14 PM
Burning Crusade Content Patches Ghostz Public Discussion 21 09/28/06 6:10 PM