Our first kill of A'lar and Vashj both featured 5-10 people alive at the end - A'lar with 0 healers/melee/tanks alive, and Vashj with 0 ranged/tanks/healers alive at the end. So I'll disagree with you on "no last min heroics," and pat you on the back for just having a well performing raid.
Our first kill of A'lar and Vashj both featured 5-10 people alive at the end - A'lar with 0 healers/melee/tanks alive, and Vashj with 0 ranged/tanks/healers alive at the end. So I'll disagree with you on "no last min heroics," and pat you on the back for just having a well performing raid.
Gotta agree with this, and while you 'usually' do most of the raid bosses in fairly similar ways, I think there's a fair amount of differentiation left in the various strategies to make it interesting. We seem to change up things nonstop from strategies not to mention even kill to kill we're always refining various things- perhaps not in the sweeping massive positioning and approach changes that you're thinking of, but certainly a fair amount.
But perhaps that's just me.
Originally Posted by bartolimu
It makes me want to hit Marge Thatcher on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.
Also, does anyone else get the feeling that the encounters aren't designed so much as a set of obstacles to be overcome, so much as a single strategy you have to execute? I know that the huge amount of resources on the internet adds to this, but I still feel like in most encounters there is very little flexibility in the way a fight is approached.
I think more over that with the smaller raid size there is less room for learning error. It is indeed still possible to pull out those last moment clutch wins with only a few people standing. But during the learning phases of an encounter you have much less time to "practice" when you realise it will be a wipe regardless.
Our first kill of A'lar and Vashj both featured 5-10 people alive at the end - A'lar with 0 healers/melee/tanks alive, and Vashj with 0 ranged/tanks/healers alive at the end. So I'll disagree with you on "no last min heroics," and pat you on the back for just having a well performing raid.
Depending on how well people pay attention to their WW timer, Leotheras can turn out like this for us on some nights.
I think last week we had a bunch of people die during Hydross and we were running up against the enrage timer. He enraged and we killed him about 4-5 seconds after he was start to hit people for 100k a swing, that was pretty exciting .
Last minute heroics can still happen. Depending on which boss it is, reactions range from "holy crap that was awesome, guys!" to "What the hell, never let that happen again!"
They have realized this. Tigole's interview indicate very well that this is in fact the role they've selected for "Naxxaramas Reloaded" in the expansion: a 25-man raid that can be done straight out of the levelling period, after people have just amassed enough blues to have decent stats, with various complexity layers (after all, you've got 4 wings for that).
As the introduction raid, those people who are more hardcore, and who have done Naxxaramas before will tear thru it quickly, and move on, so they don't have time to get really bored by a familiar instance. And the less fast paced guilds don't implode by threading thru a Karazhan-style 10 man before going "back" to 25 man.
I hope that with the 10-mans, we see a kind of parallel progression more similar to Classic WoW's UBRS/ZG/AQ20. Start the X-pack off with a 10-man dungeon like UBRS, with blue drops and a heroic mode, with the initial 25-man content being the revamped Naxx. Then, as each further tier of 25-man content is introduced to a game, a 10-man paralell instance to the previous tier could be introduced (like how ZA has similar ilvl loots to SSC/TK).
I think this is a large reason for the lack of epic-feel in the current raid game. I remember our first Nef kill, 20 people left after the zerg, half the raid dead around us, and managing to eek out a win with the raid at almost no mana, all cooldowns blown, and people cheering in vent. We don't get that anymore. Its either a flawless execution kill, or a complete wipe. There are no more last second heroics.
It depends a lot on encounter design, indeed. Fights like Illidan, Archimonde or Magtherion will rarely be won by a small amount of players still standing, just due to encounter mechanics.
There are a lot of encounters that are totally different, especially before stuff got nerfed to #$^@. Old Gruul, Leotheras, old Al'ar, Vashj, Mother and especially Reliquary of Souls are just asking for kills with 10-15 people or even less being alive.
Especially now that with arena good pvpers don't need to pve to pvp (with a few exceptions which should be fixed like trinkets), I really don't understand why not just increase the stratification in power between items at different raiding tiers. Although of course it is probably too late - hopefully they will have learned from their mistakes next expansion.
They have learned from their mistakes, and I suspect they won't move back to the mudflated tiers of vanilla WOW. It creates a number of problems for the balancing new non-raid content, since it would be either completely trivial for raiders or completely impossible for blue-geared players. It promotes heavy farming; currently it's quite possible to learn Druul one week, Magtheridon the next, then start doing a boss or two in SSC/TK per week because the gear upgrades aren't that dramatic. With heavy stratification, you end up having to farm Gruul/Mag for weeks to even be able to attempt Lurker or Void Reaver, and repeat for each level up. Plus it makes it much harder for people to shift in progression, the recruitment thread here would likely be a lot less happy if you needed to get people in full SSC gear to have them be worth bringing to Hyjal.
Also, you're completely overlooking PVP balance - the advantage a team in S2 gladiator has over a team in starter PVP gear is already pretty strong. Knocking that up to the kind of discrepancy that dungeon blues vs BWL gear had in vanilla WOW would severely disrupt the flow of new players into PVP. My rogue with 4k hp in decent dungeon gear would get 1-shot by Tier 2 warriors, it's a real turn-off to trying to play when you stand no chance, especially when the only way to get the needed gear is to hit arenas against those teams. And of course, not knocking up the quality of PVP gear would just result in a repeat of the old welfare PVP wins for having raid gear.
As it stands, they can balance starting content in WOTLK to expect people to wear 70 blues plus a few filler epics and gradually progress gear upwards as people level to 80 and not have the encounters be totally trivial for someone in raid gear. If they had made each tier into a huge jump, they would have to start WOTLK with a gear reset like TBC, which I don't think they or anyone especially wants. Yeah, the few people decked out in T6 might blow through the first zone or two really fast, but who cares? It's a small chunk of the player base, and one that tends to power level past that content anyway (in the 'level fast and efficiently' sense, not 'pays a leveling service').
In addition, I just wanted to comment on the idea that it would be a ton of time before people could focus on hard instances again... I'm not sure about that. Naxx had what... 15 bosses? 16? You could easily do the first 6 or so at early MC level difficulty and ramp it up through the course of the instance so that Kel'Thuzad is at a place... oh say harder than Leotheras but easier than Vashj. That would allow them to jump right from the first instance to a SSC/TK level of tuning.
I think one of the reason WoW 1.X was so well done for raiding is that the raid instances gradually scaled from the first boss to the last, not only in difficulty, but in the item levels of the loot. What this let the developers do was put some truly easy fights early in some zones so that a ton of people could at least zone in and kill something, even if only a handful of guilds ever reached the end. AQ went like 73, 73, 75, 79, 79, 79, 81, 81, 88. Naxx was 81 (8), 85 (4), 90, 92, and so on. Now every boss in the zone is the same level, with the end boss higher. I much prefer the old system. Also this system allowed a lot of overlapping item levels between raid zones, leading to a much smoother progression.
If they had made each tier into a huge jump, they would have to start WOTLK with a gear reset like TBC, which I don't think they or anyone especially wants. Yeah, the few people decked out in T6 might blow through the first zone or two really fast, but who cares? It's a small chunk of the player base, and one that tends to power level past that content anyway (in the 'level fast and efficiently' sense, not 'pays a leveling service').
Blizzard have already said in an interview that it will be a repeat of TBC gear wise, Northrend greens being epic quality and people using the last tier of gear all the way to the level cap. Which is good and bad, I like that it's a total reset button and everyone starts at the same place again.
I'm sure Blizzard have been hard at work coming up with a good trade off between the slow progress of vanilla wow and the fast release of BC, I'm eagerly awaiting to see what awesomeness they have come up with. Let's face it, everything Blizzard touches turns to gold so I have great faith in them.
Blizzard have already said in an interview that it will be a repeat of TBC gear wise, Northrend greens being epic quality and people using the last tier of gear all the way to the level cap. Which is good and bad, I like that it's a total reset button and everyone starts at the same place again.
Anyone think this will work out like last time?
I mean when the PvP patch hit and raiding died off before the expansion there were still lots of players who farmed battle grounds like crazy to have good epics; and be prepared to level fast. That turned out completely pointless; since many farmed said BGs even though not really enjoying it.
Even though there were people in Beta many didn't belive that greens would replace the hard earned epics in a matter of hours after the expansion hit. Don't see anyone doing any intense farming for anything the last two months before the expansion this time.
If raiding dies off like last time; and people are done/boored with the 5-mans I can see many not logging on at all. Not sure if thats a difference since the time before the expansion; but at least for myself I am just not intressted in doing booring things for rewards anymore (e.g. daily bombing quest, farming in general even if its farming Gruul and the like). Its kind of killing the game totally since said booring things seems required to do anything else that could fun.
Well bought NWN2 so its not a major issue for me personally.
I mean when the PvP patch hit and raiding died off before the expansion there were still lots of players who farmed battle grounds like crazy to have good epics; and be prepared to level fast. That turned out completely pointless; since many farmed said BGs even though not really enjoying it.
The system was very different at that point, having only BGs. With the current setup, aka Arenas, I have a hard time seeing anything close to the same thing happening again.
Originally Posted by frber
Even though there were people in Beta many didn't belive that greens would replace the hard earned epics in a matter of hours after the expansion hit. Don't see anyone doing any intense farming for anything the last two months before the expansion this time.
The "hard earned epics" being replaced hours after the x-pack were the lowest tier epics in the game. And if you think it was hard to earn MC/ZG/AQ20 epics...well... T2+ stuff was viable for a while and not simply replaced in all cases by some Outland green. Such statements are FUD at best.
TBC has not done everything right but I don't see your above two points as being anywhere near valid.
Many ZG epics were actually a lot harder to earn than their much more powerful pvp counterparts in the last few weeks before TBC came out (and for warriors the pvp set was much better for leveling than any t2 stuff baring ashkandi and the only real upgrades were in late AQ40 and nax). And now look at the time investment put into those and compare it to the time investment you'd put into getting random expansion green x with similar stats. Raiding seems pretty inefficient in this regard and the items are only worth it for people who have access to the very best gear and have an urge for being perfectly prepared for the next expansion to get a headstart.
So it seems most people in lower tier guilds will be better off spending their time gathering profession mats than raiding... or just take a little break unless blizzard puts up their season 3 gear in as honor reward and make them cheap similar to pre-TBC to keep them them playing (seems crazy but making s1 availably from honor does point in a certain direction).
Another thing to take into account is that one of the developers pointed out not too long ago that they generally found TBC greens to be a bit too powerful which makes me believe that TBC epics will be valid for a *little* longer.
I hope blizzard finds a way to make raiding interesting in the last months before the expansion hits but I'm not quite sure how. I hated the pvp rush pre-TBC.
Many ZG epics were actually a lot harder to earn than their much more powerful pvp counterparts in the last few weeks before TBC came out (and for warriors the pvp set was much better for leveling than any t2 stuff baring ashkandi and the only real upgrades were in late AQ40 and nax). And now look at the time investment put into those and compare it to the time investment you'd put into getting random expansion green x with similar stats. Raiding seems pretty inefficient in this regard and the items are only worth it for people who have access to the very best gear and have an urge for being perfectly prepared for the next expansion to get a headstart.
So it seems most people in lower tier guilds will be better off spending their time gathering profession mats than raiding... or just take a little break unless blizzard puts up their season 3 gear in as honor reward and make them cheap similar to pre-TBC to keep them them playing (seems crazy but making s1 availably from honor does point in a certain direction).
Another thing to take into account is that one of the developers pointed out not too long ago that they generally found TBC greens to be a bit too powerful which makes me believe that TBC epics will be valid for a *little* longer.
I hope blizzard finds a way to make raiding interesting in the last months before the expansion hits but I'm not quite sure how. I hated the pvp rush pre-TBC.
Extending the heroic badge system to multiple tiers of content would seem to be the best way to minimize the luck factor with non-tier set items.
You'd probably just want to make the player need to kill the last boss of an instance to activate the vendor, so that you couldn't get a end boss drop just because you've killed the easiest boss 50 times.
You'd probably just want to make the player need to kill the last boss of an instance to activate the vendor, so that you couldn't get a end boss drop just because you've killed the easiest boss 50 times.
And so what if a player buys a nice item with his hard earned 50 badges ?
Zul'Aman will have a 3 day lockout. Killing the easiest boss there 50 times takes 150 days of doing ZA, without missing a single reset. That is 5 months. Do you really want to deny a player a nice item, after he did his best and showed dedication in his own way for 5 months ? Bah.
The problem with the "easy arena weapons" is not that we don't want to allow people a nice gift after spending effort and time. Even if it is mainly losing. The problem is that pve weapons are so sparse, and the RNG can screw you over easily. Imho everyone in the game should see some gear progress. The difference between "good" players and "less good" players should be the speed at which they progress. Having unbeatable walls in the path of progress isn't fun for anyone.
The badge system is supposed to solve the problem of bad luck with the RNG. And make the people happy who killed many bosses, but didn't get the drop they wanted. Why don't you want to see other people happy too ?
And so what if a player buys a nice item with his hard earned 50 badges ?
Zul'Aman will have a 3 day lockout. Killing the easiest boss there 50 times takes 150 days of doing ZA, without missing a single reset. That is 5 months. Do you really want to deny a player a nice item, after he did his best and showed dedication in his own way for 5 months ? Bah.
The problem with the "easy arena weapons" is not that we don't want to allow people a nice gift after spending effort and time. Even if it is mainly losing. The problem is that pve weapons are so sparse, and the RNG can screw you over easily. Imho everyone in the game should see some gear progress. The difference between "good" players and "less good" players should be the speed at which they progress. Having unbeatable walls in the path of progress isn't fun for anyone.
The badge system is supposed to solve the problem of bad luck with the RNG. And make the people happy who killed many bosses, but didn't get the drop they wanted. Why don't you want to see other people happy too ?
I was suggesting a method of implementing the "Easy Arena Weapons" fix for a raid-level heroic badge system. You wouldn't want a guild only capable of beating the first boss purchasing items equivalent to those dropping off the last boss for the same reason you don't want a 1500 team storing 5000 points and buying the next season's weapons- It cheapens the rewards for those putting in the effort to achieve them.
You could have a selection of items available through the vendor from the start, and a second, higher quality selection opened up to players who have completed the dungeon. I did misstate what I was suggesting in the original post and should have elaborated more.
Extending the heroic badge system to multiple tiers of content would seem to be the best way to minimize the luck factor with non-tier set items.
You'd probably just want to make the player need to kill the last boss of an instance to activate the vendor, so that you couldn't get a end boss drop just because you've killed the easiest boss 50 times.
Not so sure. Its a different system. At least for me I see randomly generated loot as a way of keeping an instance intressting for a longer time than coin/token drops.
Simply because if Blizzard were to tell you that your raid needs to kill Prince Mahclezar every week for 4 months and then you'll have the Mindblade; its likely that many would just decide that thats just too much farming and give up before even starting.
But adjusting drop rates so a single raid force with say 5 players intressted in said Mindblade will need to run the same instance for a much longer period before the raid as a whole has gotten all the needed drops seems to be accepted by players. Likely because not many can work out the statistics involved.
Its the same that having a quest that tells you to kill 200 silly wolves would feel booring as hell; but obtain 20 quest items with an individual drop rate of 10% does feel much more realistic. In particular since you wont know the drop rate is only about 10% until having gotten 5 quest drops maybe; and by the time you fully realise just how many pointless wolves that needs to be killed you already did a fair share of it.
Taking out the randomness will lead to the items beeing obtained faster in the end. Not sure thats in Blizzards best intresst either. Sure players want it of course but running MMOs is to a pretty big extent about making the content as time consuming as possible; without overdoing it so people quit.
In any case. Grinds involving randomness to a large degree can likely be made lots longer, compared to totally predictable grinds; before players decide its not worth bothering with.
Not so sure. Its a different system. At least for me I see randomly generated loot as a way of keeping an instance intressting for a longer time than coin/token drops.
I think this is the intent...however, I don't think it matches up with the way Blizzard seems to be going with game.
I think timing is being driven by PvP, the arena system only works if they do new season reasonably frequently and they need to put new gear out there for the new season. I think they want raiders and PvPers to be in about the same "season" of gear. So Season One was T4 gear and Season Two is T5, etc.
With this view Blizzard should really be trying to push the raiders up and through content in roughly the season as the PvP gear. Less random loot that tends to fill out a raid more quickly than the pure RNG method may help with this goal.
A good (whatever that means) PvP team should expect to acquire a full set of Arena gear in a season and a good raiding guild should acquire a reasonably full set of raid gear in the same period of time. This then let's Blizzard plan their content releases to fit both groups.
The current model has the PvE "Seasons" taking twice as long as th PvP seasons which is a problem. Guild number 1000 (say the covering th top 3000 PvE players or so in the US) still hasn't cleared Kael and guild 5000 has maybe 1-2 bosses in SSC and VR down.
I suspect but do not know that the top 15000 PvP arena players probably have nearly full "Season 2" sets of gear. I base this on my 5v5 team (ranking 1565) which is pretty mediocre, yet our most dedicate players are pretty likely to get most/all of their Season 2 gear by the end of the season. As a raiding guild we are pretty unlikely to have farmed out T5 by the end of Season 2.
One idea in particular would be to massively increase the drops for the "end" boss of instances. You tend to get lots of drops from the first bosses as you kill them a lot, but then are left farming the last guy. Maybe a solution is to double the number of drops from the opening bosses, but quadruple or more the drops from Vashj, Kael, etc?
Many ZG epics were actually a lot harder to earn than their much more powerful pvp counterparts in the last few weeks before TBC came out (and for warriors the pvp set was much better for leveling than any t2 stuff baring ashkandi and the only real upgrades were in late AQ40 and nax). And now look at the time investment put into those and compare it to the time investment you'd put into getting random expansion green x with similar stats. Raiding seems pretty inefficient in this regard and the items are only worth it for people who have access to the very best gear and have an urge for being perfectly prepared for the next expansion to get a headstart.
Well really clearing to Hakkar at the end of vanilla WoW was like a 3 hour run for most people. (Run past the Imps people...no, run past...gahhhhhh, who pulled them?) Whereas it did take a goodly bit of time to grind enough honor for anything. The big difference being a random drop vs all the time you put in toward honor would net you exactly what you wanted.
But really that was not my point. When I speak of T2 gear not just talking about the sets. Heck my Warrior's [Helm of Endless Rage] lasted him a long long time before I finally saw anything that could really replace it. (Sans maybe some gemmable helms that if I had dropped 150+ worth of gold on they could have been slightly better but really.) And the same held true for most of my toons who had geared up decently pre-xpack. The "one hour in the Outalnds and your going to replace all your epics" hype was I think a little overblown.
Well really clearing to Hakkar at the end of vanilla WoW was like a 3 hour run for most people. (Run past the Imps people...no, run past...gahhhhhh, who pulled them?) Whereas it did take a goodly bit of time to grind enough honor for anything. The big difference being a random drop vs all the time you put in toward honor would net you exactly what you wanted.
But really that was not my point. When I speak of T2 gear not just talking about the sets. Heck my Warrior's [Helm of Endless Rage] lasted him a long long time before I finally saw anything that could really replace it. (Sans maybe some gemmable helms that if I had dropped 150+ worth of gold on they could have been slightly better but really.) And the same held true for most of my toons who had geared up decently pre-xpack. The "one hour in the Outalnds and your going to replace all your epics" hype was I think a little overblown.
It's very overblown. I was in Naxx gear going into BC - had everything I wanted except Sapphiron's trinket, Frostfire Ring, and Atiesh, and I only replaced 1 item on the way to 70, and that was my Wand of Qiraji Nobility with Nesingwary Safari Stick. In fact, I STILL use Nelth's Tear and only recently replaced Ring of the Eternal Flame. I also still use Cloak of the Devoured and Amulet of Vek'nilash (although that one I'm very ashamed of - I'm never in the correct Karazhan raid for a Prince kill). I agree with the above poster that it's mostly FUD to blame.
The current model has the PvE "Seasons" taking twice as long as th PvP seasons which is a problem. Guild number 1000 (say the covering th top 3000 PvE players or so in the US) still hasn't cleared Kael and guild 5000 has maybe 1-2 bosses in SSC and VR down.
I think you are severely overestimating the number of guilds that have downed Kael'thas. According to wowjutsu, 888 guilds have downed Kael'tahs worldwide, and only 373 in the US have downed him. This is probably within a margin of error due to inflation by guild switching and deflation by slow data updates, so it is a good indicator.
There are only ~1800 guilds in the US that meet your "couple SSC bosses + VR" mark. Therefore pvp seems even farther ahead than pve progression, and this is evidenced by my "average" guild (4/6, 1/4) being equipped with half pvp weapons because there is no way we could get equivalent weapons in the same time span from pve.
Even though there were people in Beta many didn't belive that greens would replace the hard earned epics in a matter of hours after the expansion hit. Don't see anyone doing any intense farming for anything the last two months before the expansion this time.
What epics were actually replaced by Hellfire Penninsula greeens? I saw people using a decent amount Tier 2 until 65 or so, and Tier 3 didn't get fully phased out until 70. Sure, Molten Core gear got pushed aside rather quickly, but the majority of people put in less effort to get MC gear than I did for my old dungeon blues. Same with PVP gear, I kept my speed bonus until around level 66 or so.
Sure, hybrids with Tiered HEAL ONLY gear replaced it with feral/ret/shadow/enhancement gear right off the bat to level up, and warriors with TANK ONLY gear replaced it with DPS gear, but that's meaningless. I'd use green 'of the beast' gear right now over my healing gear for actually killing stuff. Replacing low-damage gear with high-damage gear when going from 'heal/tank only' to 'killing stuff only' is what happened, the epic vs uncommon part isn't relevant.
Can you list a dozen or so T2+ items that were replaced by hellfire greens of the same type? If you can't, I think it's pretty clear that there is no real substance to the claim.
I expect that the first dungeon in WOTLK will have drops roughly on par with Tier 4 or maybe even the 'karazhan starter' level. People with T4 or so gear will not need to gear up in the first set of dungeons, T5 will skip the second set, T6 and anything higher will either be phased out in the late 70s or at 80.
Can you list a dozen or so T2+ items that were replaced by hellfire greens of the same type? If you can't, I think it's pretty clear that there is no real substance to the claim.
Not much substance, indeed. As a mage who got three T2.5 and zero T3, I think I kept all of the T2.5 nearly up to 70, and surely past HFP (it's hard to remember now). I do remember being a bit depressed when my Robe of the Archmage - the best +dmg I could find on a chest up to then - was replaced by a soloable quest at Zeth'gor. But that's arguably MC-class loot, as good as it was, and it proved not to be a harbinger of replacement.
T2 chest for lock/mage: Shadowcast Tunic
T2 rogue/hunter: Darkstorm Tunic
T2-level dps warrior: Battlemaster's Breastplate
Any MH healing item pre-C'Thun: Earthcaller's Mace
Most trinkets pre-C'Thun: Bladefist's Breadth, Vengeance of the Illidari, Regal Protectorate
T2-level Shadow Priest Neck: Crimson Pendant of Clarity
T2-level healing rings: Holy Healing Band
Any dps cloak: Perfectly Balanced Cape
All from Hellfire, all from 60-61 quests.
Now, those are all *blues*. The greens, almost universally, were designed for offset hybrids whose T2/T3 gear was all healing oriented. It was shaman/paladin/druid gear, designed for ferals, rets, and enh/ele. WotLK won't do that, as much, because there's so much gear available now.
There is *no-one* who made it to 70 without replacing some gear, unless you were in full Naxx-level gear, or were just lazy and decided to not bother and just kept the gear until you could instance.
I didn't replace *much* on the way to 70 ... but I replaced enough. And as soon as we were 66, we started running all the Auch instances (lvl 66 tank versus the original Sethekk = ow ... but we cleared it, and started getting D3 pants). And then the gear melted away, until I was down to 3 or 4 items from TBC.
I'll try to emphasize my earlier point. I think in many cases it can be considered inefficient to spend x hours for an item that will do nothing but speed up the way to 80 by y minutes.
Many people might be turned off by spending too much effort into an item that will just speed up their leveling and is unlikely to help them in the next expansions endgame.
How efficient that turns out to be is highly dependant on the time spent on getting the item and how good it actually is (what it will do for you in the next expansion). Generally the higher your tier the better your time is spent since your item will last you longer.
Getting the Fankriss trinket for warriors was obviously efficient since it was still awesome in TBC raiding including BT and Hyjal (although it did not help leveling).
I think a lot of people care about efficiency and this will turn many away from raiding in the last weeks before wotlk like it turned many to the honor grind in the end of vanilla wow (Going AFK in alterac valley was typically much more efficient than raiding MC, BWL or even AQ). Even if you have only a minority of people thinking this way in your guild you might not be able to raid due to the lack of participants. I was wondering if there is a solution to make "last minute" raiding a bit more attractive without making the items last too long into the expansion.
On a sidenote: How long it will take to generally replace tier x seems much less interesting than talking about which concrete items might actually still have a role in wotlk raiding... but I guess we will have to wait for sunwell to tell.
09/11/07, 3:37 PM
Similar Threads
