The only trouble with 25 person raiding as far as I can tell is that blizz made the decision to go to 25 based on 5 5 man groups, then didn't make 25 person raiding = 5 tanks 5 healers expected in raid.
Is there any sensible reason why they did not?
It seems to me that 5 man content beeing 1 tank 1 healer and 3 DPS mostly translates pretty well into karazhan beeing 2 tanks, 2 healers (+1 off spec druid/shammy/priest maybe), and rest DPS.
But 2 Karazhan groups who want to gather for 25 mans have 4 tanks, 4 healers, and 12 DPS in that case. 4 tanks should be mostly fine; 12 DPS likely fine also; but 4 healers not so good. What is recommended for 25 man raids? 8?
If so two Karazhan groups merging and expanding for 25 mans would be fine with tanks; mostly fine with DPS; but need almost twice as many healers as they did previously. Of course said healers need to be geared up so there is a good chance that said healers would be people who leave other Karazhan groups to get started on 25 mans.
Doesn't seem to make sense at all to make content require very a different tank/heal/dps balance compared to the normal 5-mans. Sure take 4 Karazhan groups and merge them, and in the process force half the tanks/dps to quit (the game), and you have a 25 man perhaps. All could be fine but if the healers in this new raid group still want to do 5-mans? Or group quests?
Since DPS seems to be the more popular option to play I could see them wanting to tweek 25 mans for slightly less healer/tank players even just so that DPS who can't find 5 man groups at least get to raid; but to go te opposite way just seems stupid from a buissness perspective. Don't see what Blizzard gains by making finding groups even harder than it has to be?
I see this statement, or ones very similar, a lot. No, it's not Blizzard's job to do that. However, it is Blizzard's job to tune encounters to what they feel is beatable by a percentage of people playing (determined in house by the developers). As a subscriber, it's my job to determine if I accept their "Vision" of the end game. Right now it appears that the percentage that they want exploring and consuming the higher end content is relatively small. Thus, as a subscriber, I have adjusted my playtime (and subscription) accordingly. Before I get off this line of thought, thankfully, it appears that Blizzard has acknowledged some concerns with how high the bar is set in Burning Crusade. While the steps for BC that are being taken to correct it now are relatively small, Blizzard seems to be addressing this in Wrath of the Lich King with a "Molten Core" level of difficulty for the first 25 Man raid (new and improved Naxx).
Ribeye (and this applies to Kaib as well). I have a strong feeling that you don't understand what the "unwashed masses" are going through right now. One of you has completed Black Temple and the other is nearly there (according to your guildsites). You've chosen a different playstyle than I have. I have the mindset for that playstyle and if it wasn't for my real life job and commitments , I would definitely be going after a guild similar to yours. You can take a look at my Armory, you'll see that I have done everything I can to make my character as powerful as possible given my current limitations. I've got an alt Herbilist / Alchemist to supply me with all the potions and flasks I could ever need. I've raised my secondary professions to a level that allows me to create more consumables that benefit me. When I play games (MMOs, console whatever), I play very seriously. But due to real life factors it's very difficult to me to commit to a high-end and hardcore guild.
The problem is that the rest of my guild isn't quite as dedicated or "smart" as I am. They're not bad or lousy players. But they are what I would consider to be AVERAGE players. And it's this type of person that makes up 90% of the population (I'll leave the last 10% for the truly horrible or the truly fantastic). We've got our above average players and we've got some lousy players as well, however, the bulk of my guild is filled with "average" players. And the problem with Burning Crusade raiding is that it's not tuned towards a guild filled with the bulk of it's membership being average.
I hear this kind of response all the time. You are correct, I am sure we are not so different. If you read this thread through the vast majority of guilds have the largest issue not with the difficulty of the enounter, but getting people to show up. Honestly, even if all your guild members were complete morons, if you could get 25 of them to show up with any sort of consistency you would be successfull. If you truly are the one needle in a haystack of medocrity then that seems to be your "issue," not Blizzards. Why ask Blizzard to lower the bar for you instead of just joining a guild with people who work as hard as you do?
My guild has people of varying degrees of real life committments. While I make a point to show up to every raid there are several who only attend 1 or 2 raids a week and even more that show up late and just sub in when people need to leave early. We have varying lvls of competence as well. Some learn fast and do the right thing everytime while others do not and cost us a couple wipes. In the end though, the one thing that seperates my guild from all the others complaining in this thread is that our guild leadership has assembled enough pieces to ensure we have roundabout 25 people for every raid, and that those 25 people are gemmed, specced, enchanted and potted correctly for the challenge ahead of them.
The game *is* challenging. But clearly it's not impossible. Most of the fights are simply setup with the assumption that your group of 25 friends has done the most basic amount of preparation for the fight. If I can give you any one piece of advice in being succesfull in this game, its that if you find a good leader, stick to them like glue.
I think a lot of the problems with "nerf x" posts come from the removal of attunments.
If the attunements were still in (despite the bad form of 5 -> 10 -> 5 (heroics) -> 25) you could know that they at least went though some semi-hard content to zone in. Problem was not enough people took the "bait" to try and improve their gameplay to meet the low requirements (for most pre-TBC raiders) and then they were forced to open up SSC/TK because people complained that 1% of the player population actually had access to this content.
The boss fights themselves are (were?) fine if you knew that every player went through semi-difficult other content before there so you knew they could play their class to an acceptable level. Now anyone can zone into SSC/TK and they realize that many players did not improve their game to even zone in.
Remember the long threads on Trial of Naruu: Mercy? You had to pick your group to complete this one and cough up the gold to respec everyone for it if you wanted the best shot at it. It was hard and probably the biggest reason why the attunements were lifted, even though it was doable by everyone, provided you had a good understanding of your class and a good understanding of group make-ups, especially post Shattered Halls nerf.
Still wasn't enough.
So now you have groups that have never even tried these entry leval "raids" going after larger and more complicated fights requiring more large scale coordination and predictably failing pretty badly calling for nerfs for the newest hard to kill boss, which Kael'thas seems to be the popular target now.
You probably have a point, however TBC raiding still lacks a proper 25-man MC entry level raid that's actually doable by 25 more-or-less skilled players.
I don't think it's right to nerf the high-end content, but there should be content available for those lower down on the food chain. People need a place to train, to hone their skills.
Going into a zone requiring everyone to buff up on consumables isn't it.
Am I the only one remembering running BWL with maybe, just maybe, the MT popping a titans somewhere after ebonroc perhaps so it would last trough to Nef ?
You probably have a point, however TBC raiding still lacks a proper 25-man MC entry level raid that's actually doable by 25 more-or-less skilled players.
25 more-or-less skilled players can certainly clear Gruul's and Maggy's and tag at least two bosses in SSC/TK fairly quickly. I really don't agree with this - SSC/TK aren't that hard. People didn't learn much at all from MC because its difficulty was honestly trivial. An MC-level raid in the game now would be less difficult than any five-man you run at level 70.
I do certainly agree that Karazhan and two one-nighters was a bad model for t4. I do certainly think that it was a shame that content started encouraging consumable usage so quickly. I don't like the notion of having another MC to go to, though. Even discounting the miles of trash, the encounters were nearly all enormously boring tank + spank encounters where the biggest challenge was getting your decursers to take you seriously when you said to decurse. Domo was the exact point where MC got interesting. (Shazzrah, possibly, but that fight was mostly just bad.)
MC worked because the rest of the game didn't make people play. Solo and five-man content has gotten considerably harder since then, and there is no reason to nerf the content to that level. SSC/TK with lower HP and DPS on the bosses would have been a much better alternative, but they chose to make it second tier, which made tuning the bosses that way less feasible.
Am I the only one remembering running BWL with maybe, just maybe, the MT popping a titans somewhere after ebonroc perhaps so it would last trough to Nef ?
We tended to have about five flasked tanks for Broodlord, actually.
a huge problem with raiding currently is that when the SSC/TK were first opened they had then some pretty challenging attunement quests. SSC requiring you to kill Nightbane/Gruul, and the trial quests for TK were pretty demanding.
So when blizzard took away these attument quests and nerfed stuff like gruul and nightbane you had people zone into SSC/TK who were not quite ready for it, and are now complaining about SSC/TK content being too hard because they never experienced the 4th tier instances pre-nerfs.
You're forgetting that tier 5 content has also been scaled down in difficulty accordingly; I'd still argue that the greatest leap in difficulty in early progression (by which I mean T4 and early T5 encounters) is probably from Gruul to Magtheridon, rather than from Magtheridon to say Lurker or Hydross - the largest difficulty gap lies within T4 content rather than from T4 to T5. This is belied by the fact that a significant number of guilds actually kill Lurker or Void Reaver before Magtheridon, although this could be partly due to the fact that Magtheridon requires fairly specific raid composition (5 tanks, 3 Warlocks when learning) compared to the two aforementioned examples, which have no such demands.
Honestly, even if all your guild members were complete morons, if you could get 25 of them to show up with any sort of consistency you would be successfull.
This is more true than a lot of people would like to believe. Had our raid group not experienced a MASSIVE amount of back-to-school turnover, we'd be working on Kael'thas and maybe have him down. However losing about 4-5 solid 4 day a week raiders (plus others) kills your raid team. We had to basically relearn most of the SSC fights, and are now getting back to blazing through farm content now that everyone is back up to speed. A solid ~20 person core of competent players can learn SSC.
The DPS requirement is very low, no fight takes longer than ~10 minutes pre-vashj (Any longer and you're either limping badly or you're gonna get gibbed by beserk). Sometimes guilds ask for pointers on some of the fights they are struggling on, and I just /boggle at what their reasoning on some things. Honestly, one of the biggest steps forward for us has been telling people they are screwing up, how they are doing it, and what they need to do to fix it. If they don't, they get replaced. Being able to do that, and fixing peoples poor gear/spec/enchant/gem choices is the difference between a 6/6, 4/5 +/- a boss guild and a guild with just lurker and VR.
MC worked because the rest of the game didn't make people play. Solo and five-man content has gotten considerably harder since then, and there is no reason to nerf the content to that level. SSC/TK with lower HP and DPS on the bosses would have been a much better alternative, but they chose to make it second tier, which made tuning the bosses that way less feasible.
We tended to have about five flasked tanks for Broodlord, actually.
Obviously MC was boring as hell (edit: only Ragnaros wasn't) and nobody wants a 100% copy or a pure tank and spank instance, because that would not prepare you for later raid instances at all as the game has developed quite a bit.
I wanted to use the term MC as an illustration for a clear and manageable goal. I think we agree on the rest. I don't think BC raiding necessarily starts way too hard (if that was the essence of my post I probably wouldn't post it on *this* board). It starts too unmotivating lacking a clear path. It's fine to have the topend raiders make a choice which boss would be optimal to focus on next and find a solution on how to make the jump from 10 to 25 man but the entry raiders need to be guided and don't want to waste time travelling between instances or making insane logistical effort.
Now of course an awesome leader can guide them through... but blizzard isn't exactly making their job easier.
P.S.: I solo tanked Broodlord unflasked (but in Full T2) once so your example seems anecdotal at best and makes me wonder if your warriors used Demoralizing Shout, Thunderclap and Shield Block consistently.
P.S.: I solo tanked Broodlord unflasked (but in Full T2) once so your example seems anecdotal at best and makes me wonder if your warriors used Demoralizing Shout, Thunderclap and Shield Block consistently.
We certainly weren't the first guild to flask tanks on Broodlord. Necessary? Meh. But it did make for a lot more room for error, especially for the healers. To be honest? Very few of the encounters I've done at the t4/t5 level have honestly required full buffs. They help a lot, to be sure, but if you really wanted to, you could certainly do most of TK/SSC without fully flasked DPS, etc. Most of our first kills have been flasked, but with a minute+ on an enrage timer.
Dear god no, I'm not saying we need another MC as a carbon copy. MC got dull, fast.
However, something that has the full raid size (now 25) that's not really hard but gives decent enough loot to allow more mistakes to be made at the next tier would be handy. I hate the fact that most of my raiders are decent enough in a 10 man situation but it's a whole difference experience going any further.
Karazhan currently works as ZG/aq20 as a entrylevel raid, it just feels as if we're expected to do ZG -> BWL.
It seems to me that 5 man content beeing 1 tank 1 healer and 3 DPS mostly translates pretty well into karazhan beeing 2 tanks, 2 healers (+1 off spec druid/shammy/priest maybe), and rest DPS.
But 2 Karazhan groups who want to gather for 25 mans have 4 tanks, 4 healers, and 12 DPS in that case. 4 tanks should be mostly fine; 12 DPS likely fine also; but 4 healers not so good. What is recommended for 25 man raids? 8?
If so two Karazhan groups merging and expanding for 25 mans would be fine with tanks; mostly fine with DPS; but need almost twice as many healers as they did previously. Of course said healers need to be geared up so there is a good chance that said healers would be people who leave other Karazhan groups to get started on 25 mans.
Doesn't seem to make sense at all to make content require very a different tank/heal/dps balance compared to the normal 5-mans. Sure take 4 Karazhan groups and merge them, and in the process force half the tanks/dps to quit (the game), and you have a 25 man perhaps. All could be fine but if the healers in this new raid group still want to do 5-mans? Or group quests?
Since DPS seems to be the more popular option to play I could see them wanting to tweek 25 mans for slightly less healer/tank players even just so that DPS who can't find 5 man groups at least get to raid; but to go te opposite way just seems stupid from a buissness perspective. Don't see what Blizzard gains by making finding groups even harder than it has to be?
Umm, I think your entire arguement is flawed.
1. Pre-heroic nerfs at least, well over half my heroics were with 2 healers out of 5 players.
2. All the way to exalted, I never once ran Kara with <3 healers.
3. All of SSC/TK is doable with 6 healers, some with 5.
So yea, all your compositions are arbitrarily set up to prove your point, which is wrong.
5 man heroics are run with 1-2 healers.
10 mana kara is run with 2-3 healers
25 mans, thus, should be 5-10 (based on purely 5man comp expanded) or 5-8 (based on 2 10mans and 1 5man).
Wow Blizzard, way to do an excellent job on thinking through your content and making it so all content can be done with the same class role balance!
P.S.: I solo tanked Broodlord unflasked (but in Full T2) once so your example seems anecdotal at best and makes me wonder if your warriors used Demoralizing Shout, Thunderclap and Shield Block consistently.
Correct me if I am wrong, but the reason you used several tanks on broodlord was because he reduced aggro on his primary target, so all the tanks were fighting for aggro. I remember the fight as being all about the pull and not going above the tank in threat. So tanking him alone seems kinda weird to me, never tried it though.
No your completely right. Seriously we didnt theorycraft much about it... our other MT was afk and only one offtank got aggro and died right away since the healers missed the switch.
I guess my TPS was pretty good since Broodlord tented to stick to me almost exclusively once I specced def.
Some of us used KTM so I guess the DPS did a good job watching aggro, too.
Edit: Yes of course I was playing alliance but no I didn't have a thunderfury. This was not meant as a pure brag I know my place quite well. Even when learning Broodlord we never had more than 3 tanks and I was mainly concerned about using 5 flasked tanks on him. The whole comment about Broodlord came up in a consumeable use / difficulty context and as alliance this encounter was quite trivial. Thanks for pointing it out but a short sentence in a nice tone would have been enough to clear it up.
We certainly weren't the first guild to flask tanks on Broodlord. Necessary? Meh. But it did make for a lot more room for error, especially for the healers. To be honest? Very few of the encounters I've done at the t4/t5 level have honestly required full buffs. They help a lot, to be sure, but if you really wanted to, you could certainly do most of TK/SSC without fully flasked DPS, etc. Most of our first kills have been flasked, but with a minute+ on an enrage timer.
Well we also had a tendency to equip our tanks in blue chestplates for him (and every other boss - awful luck with golemagg and tank gear in general for that matter) And our guild had the cash to buy all the tanks flasks so why not? And we really only had 3 tanks that had most of the aggro, the two fury guys might get aggro by 30% and then get instagibbed.
a huge problem with raiding currently is that when the SSC/TK were first opened they had then some pretty challenging attunement quests. SSC requiring you to kill Nightbane/Gruul, and the trial quests for TK were pretty demanding.
So when blizzard took away these attument quests and nerfed stuff like gruul and nightbane you had people zone into SSC/TK who were not quite ready for it, and are now complaining about SSC/TK content being too hard because they never experienced the 4th tier instances pre-nerfs.
Even if I agreed that removing attunements was a bad idea (I don't, but that topic was beaten to death when they were first removed) how would rolling back the clock prior to 2.1 and the attunement removals change anything? Instead of people complaining about Mag/SSC/TK difficulty you'd be hearing complaints about Kara/Gruul/Heroic difficulty.
Access to end-game content is a balancing act between making it difficult enough for the super high-end guilds and making it accessible to enough of their paying population to justify the expense of producing the end-game content in the first place. If only a few thousand people can access the content then the return on Blizzard's investment to develop the content just isn't there.
At the end of the day I suspect that the major nerfs to T4/T5 content have already happened, and the difficulty is going to stay pretty much where it is. Clearly the attunement removals and the nerfs were targeted at getting more guilds in to T5 content, and judging from my server (very average by wowjutsu US guild rankings) that has been a big success. This isn't a "big problem", even though some guilds are clearly still going to find SSC/TK too difficult and complain about it.
1. Pre-heroic nerfs at least, well over half my heroics were with 2 healers out of 5 players.
2. All the way to exalted, I never once ran Kara with <3 healers.
3. All of SSC/TK is doable with 6 healers, some with 5.
In the same way Karazhan is doable with two healers or heroics are doable with one, SSC/TK are doable with 5-6. For the most part, 8 healers is a comfortable number for most guilds in 25 man content, especially if they don't want to constantly be swapping people in and out for every fight. I think 3 is pretty standard for Karazhan, and 1.5 for heroics.
Extending this you are looking at 1.5 for 5 mans. 3 for 10 mans, and 6.5 for 25 mans. So really you are only talking about maybe 1 extra healer for your 25 man ratio, which really isn't too bad at all on Blizzard's part.
But he was talking about tanks and healers, and you certainly don't need 5 tanks on all fights. Maybe 2 fights in SSC, 2 in TK, and a handful in T6 (probably Hyjal trash), but in general you certainly don't need 5 tank-specced tanks for anything, while you will need 6-8 healing specced healers.
I'm sorry for going a bit off topic, but if you've been running kara for any amount of time (which is reasonable considering where we are now) two healers, 1 tank, 1 offtank (eg. druid) and 6 dps works really well in Kara and is nice and fast.
I think a lot of the problems with "nerf x" posts come from the removal of attunments.
...
The boss fights themselves are (were?) fine if you knew that every player went through semi-difficult other content before there so you knew they could play their class to an acceptable level. Now anyone can zone into SSC/TK and they realize that many players did not improve their game to even zone in.
Actually, the problem is that, instead of putting a 25-man entry level raid, they simply dropped the attunements. SSC & TK were never meant to be a 25-man entry raid. Gruul Lair was, except that it had only 2 bosses, with so little loot, people had to do Karazhan to get stuff. Adding more loot to Heroic instances (and soon, more badge options) is still avoiding the problem.
People are asking for SSC to be nerfed, because there isn't any 25-man instance that they can do. That's what most of everybody on the "casual side" says. They know it. But, instead of fixing it "now", they're going to fix it in WotLK.
Instead of people complaining about Mag/SSC/TK difficulty you'd be hearing complaints about Kara/Gruul/Heroic difficulty.
If you simply reinstate the attunements, yes. If you reinstate attunements (or a lesser form of them in TK's case), and add an entry 25-man, it would go a long way. Specially if the 25-man would provide an alternate attunement to SSC, so you can run an heroic & Kara to get in SSC, or kill the "Ragnaros" of the entry raid.
So yea, all your compositions are arbitrarily set up to prove your point, which is wrong.
5 man heroics are run with 1-2 healers.
10 mana kara is run with 2-3 healers
25 mans, thus, should be 5-10 (based on purely 5man comp expanded) or 5-8 (based on 2 10mans and 1 5man).
[quote]
I have to agree with the other poster that you do end up having to pick up an extra healer but for the most part it translates well. If anything, we ended up with extra tanks that had to respec coming out of kara farming.
As for 25 man progression and difficulty, I've been enjoying SSC but can already see where clearing Hydross or Tidewalker for the 20th time for our first Vash attempt is going to look daunting.
One of the things I just don't get is how raid progression is not linear in difficulty. T5 guilds reach the end, finally kill Kael after 20-40 raid hours or so (usually canceling SSC that week to focus just on TK) and within 2 weeks mow down 4-5 bosses in BT/MtH. That seems to be a steep peak in the curve to me. I'm really looking forward to Kael because it looks like an awesome fight but it seems like the learning curve is going to suck some of joy out of that. I mean is the "free epics" - "gold at the end of the rainbow" suppose to be the motivator I am throwing at my guild when we finally reach Kael and have our first "OMG, trash is up and we've only had 1 good attempt tonight" event? The "free epics" being the 4-5 bosses, BT/MtH Rep and content we'll finally get to see IF we can just do Kael. Honestly, it just seems "off" to me.
I can see why Kael is the fixation for many at the moment. I don’t mean from the roadblock perspective but how much content he gates. There is just so much new content you will have access too when you finally kill him that unlike any other first kill in the game, killing kael is like getting a huge promotion. “Almost” (stress that) like hitting GM in the old PvP world. You get to a point in the game and suddenly you get this Christmas feeling. Just seems like an odd point in the progression to hit that kind of high.
P.S.: I solo tanked Broodlord unflasked (but in Full T2) once so your example seems anecdotal at best and makes me wonder if your warriors used Demoralizing Shout, Thunderclap and Shield Block consistently.
a) You were most likely Alliance then. The guy you responded to probably Horde. Especially in a fight where BoS for dps/healers and BoK for the tank make such an immense, that makes your post silly to begin with.
b) Full T2 gear at Broodlord compared to people who reach him in blue/MC gear ... I won't comment any further on that. If you even had a TF for some extra threat, you should quickly delete your post.
And to get a bit back on track here. there is NO difficult fight in TBC (after nurfs) other then Kael. Anything else does not require any form of serious coordination, dps or silly raid stacking. Kael is a bit different as the encounter requires both coordination and fairly high dps. The dps issue was kinda nurfed with arena weapons and karaz/t4/t5 level gear being quite powerful, compared to the gear you obtain from Kael onwards.
Anyway, I agree that Kael is too hard for casual guilds. I figured he would be nurfed by now. Extended the weapon phase and the respawn of the advisors-phase by 10-15s each would make the whole thing dramatically easier and also bring the different phases of the fight in line, as p1 is a joke, p2/p3 is hard and after that it's rather smooth sailing.
Before that, I really don't see the point. The stuff is not hard. I know several guilds raiding three days per week that reached Kael easily. It requires some coordination and a few people that put in some work to learn the encounters from videos and explain stuff, but if you want to do something with a group of 30-45 people, you WILL need someone doing some amount of work. That is the same with any RL activity that involves that many people. Or do you think baseball/soccer/basketball leagues run themself and your team's coach only shows up for practice units without doing anything at all outside of that time?
If you think you should experience high end raiding content with two raiding days per week or less, imho you are in the wrong game genre. MMORPGs are not exactly known for requiring a minimum of invested time to complete.
I quit the game before I saw as much raiding content in TBC as in vanilla and I won't comment individual fights. However, if what kaib says about coordination is true, I'm not surprised. It's not that hard to grasp that coordinating 25 is easier than coordinating 40 or more and I believe that if Blizzard wants to make really challenging raid encounters 25 players per raid won't be enough.
I think people not having access to raiding content is certainly not a case of mono-causality. Something along the lines of "stuff is too hard" and "raiding takes too long" won't cut it. Hardcore vs casual is frowned upon for a reason here. But quite obviously raiding problems are not only the result of encounter tuning.
*rant*
I remember when AQ 40 was opened on my server we were just starting at chromaggus and it took us a couple of nights (3-4? but we never dedicated a full night to him since we were still farming MC) to down him. Just having the option of doing something argueably more efficient (-> go kill Skeram) was causing quite a bit of unrest for us. If we hadn't been raiding for a few month by then this might have well had a bigger impact on us. It was similar when we had the choice between Anub'rekhan, Razuvious, Ouro or C'thun and I think making a bad choice back then affected our motivation (and thus participation) in the long run and eventually killed our progression in Nax(in combination with the pvp patch). Getting people to farm resistance items and consumeables wasn't trivial either, since we always had trouble findind good recruits on our server, so we couldn't just say: "farm or leave".
*rant off*
I think making players go from 10 to (nontrivial... in a sense of "you actually need 25 people awake and at their keyboards") 25 man content and then offer them choices and basically demand consumeable use almost at the same time is, combined, just a bit over the top not only for the average joe raider but for most leaders as well. I think it would be better to face those different challenges over time and not all at once right when you start 25-man raiding. (As I mentioned earlier I even think its a bad idea to have a single PvE progression path that forces you to go from 10 to 25 man raiding ever.)
Besides Kael there isn't much to stop you from going BT/Hyjal once you sort these issues out. Additionally I think some people are mixing things up here. Wishing for a good introduction to 25 man raiding does not mean the current raiding is generally too hard. Actually it lacks a proper increase in difficulty at times (after Kael).
Just to emphasize:
Consumeable use in itself is not necessary a problem.
Difficulty in itself is not necessary a problem.
Being offerend choices is not necessary a problem.
Going from 10 man to 25 man is (in my opinion) a problem.
I think all of these combined (and I'm sure to have missed something) right at the start of BC 25-man raiding create huge problems for starting raiders.
Last edited by Furion : 09/17/07 at 4:40 PM.
Reason: spelling
09/16/07, 5:21 PM
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