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09/17/07, 1:44 PM
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#1096
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Don Flamenco
Dwarf Priest
Dalaran (EU)
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Originally Posted by Savos
I think a lot of the problems with "nerf x" posts come from the removal of attunments.
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The boss fights themselves are (were?) fine if you knew that every player went through semi-difficult other content before there so you knew they could play their class to an acceptable level. Now anyone can zone into SSC/TK and they realize that many players did not improve their game to even zone in.
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Actually, the problem is that, instead of putting a 25-man entry level raid, they simply dropped the attunements. SSC & TK were never meant to be a 25-man entry raid. Gruul Lair was, except that it had only 2 bosses, with so little loot, people had to do Karazhan to get stuff. Adding more loot to Heroic instances (and soon, more badge options) is still avoiding the problem.
People are asking for SSC to be nerfed, because there isn't any 25-man instance that they can do. That's what most of everybody on the "casual side" says. They know it. But, instead of fixing it "now", they're going to fix it in WotLK.
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Instead of people complaining about Mag/SSC/TK difficulty you'd be hearing complaints about Kara/Gruul/Heroic difficulty.
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If you simply reinstate the attunements, yes. If you reinstate attunements (or a lesser form of them in TK's case), and add an entry 25-man, it would go a long way. Specially if the 25-man would provide an alternate attunement to SSC, so you can run an heroic & Kara to get in SSC, or kill the "Ragnaros" of the entry raid.
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09/17/07, 2:04 PM
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#1097
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Von Kaiser
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[quote=Failure;479166]
So yea, all your compositions are arbitrarily set up to prove your point, which is wrong.
5 man heroics are run with 1-2 healers.
10 mana kara is run with 2-3 healers
25 mans, thus, should be 5-10 (based on purely 5man comp expanded) or 5-8 (based on 2 10mans and 1 5man).
[quote]
I have to agree with the other poster that you do end up having to pick up an extra healer but for the most part it translates well. If anything, we ended up with extra tanks that had to respec coming out of kara farming.
As for 25 man progression and difficulty, I've been enjoying SSC but can already see where clearing Hydross or Tidewalker for the 20th time for our first Vash attempt is going to look daunting.
One of the things I just don't get is how raid progression is not linear in difficulty. T5 guilds reach the end, finally kill Kael after 20-40 raid hours or so (usually canceling SSC that week to focus just on TK) and within 2 weeks mow down 4-5 bosses in BT/MtH. That seems to be a steep peak in the curve to me. I'm really looking forward to Kael because it looks like an awesome fight but it seems like the learning curve is going to suck some of joy out of that. I mean is the "free epics" - "gold at the end of the rainbow" suppose to be the motivator I am throwing at my guild when we finally reach Kael and have our first "OMG, trash is up and we've only had 1 good attempt tonight" event? The "free epics" being the 4-5 bosses, BT/MtH Rep and content we'll finally get to see IF we can just do Kael. Honestly, it just seems "off" to me.
I can see why Kael is the fixation for many at the moment. I don’t mean from the roadblock perspective but how much content he gates. There is just so much new content you will have access too when you finally kill him that unlike any other first kill in the game, killing kael is like getting a huge promotion. “Almost” (stress that) like hitting GM in the old PvP world. You get to a point in the game and suddenly you get this Christmas feeling. Just seems like an odd point in the progression to hit that kind of high.
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09/17/07, 2:07 PM
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#1098
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Don Flamenco
Undead Warlock
Dentarg (EU)
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Originally Posted by Furion
P.S.: I solo tanked Broodlord unflasked (but in Full T2) once so your example seems anecdotal at best and makes me wonder if your warriors used Demoralizing Shout, Thunderclap and Shield Block consistently.
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a) You were most likely Alliance then. The guy you responded to probably Horde. Especially in a fight where BoS for dps/healers and BoK for the tank make such an immense, that makes your post silly to begin with.
b) Full T2 gear at Broodlord compared to people who reach him in blue/MC gear ... I won't comment any further on that. If you even had a TF for some extra threat, you should quickly delete your post.
And to get a bit back on track here. there is NO difficult fight in TBC (after nurfs) other then Kael. Anything else does not require any form of serious coordination, dps or silly raid stacking. Kael is a bit different as the encounter requires both coordination and fairly high dps. The dps issue was kinda nurfed with arena weapons and karaz/t4/t5 level gear being quite powerful, compared to the gear you obtain from Kael onwards.
Anyway, I agree that Kael is too hard for casual guilds. I figured he would be nurfed by now. Extended the weapon phase and the respawn of the advisors-phase by 10-15s each would make the whole thing dramatically easier and also bring the different phases of the fight in line, as p1 is a joke, p2/p3 is hard and after that it's rather smooth sailing.
Before that, I really don't see the point. The stuff is not hard. I know several guilds raiding three days per week that reached Kael easily. It requires some coordination and a few people that put in some work to learn the encounters from videos and explain stuff, but if you want to do something with a group of 30-45 people, you WILL need someone doing some amount of work. That is the same with any RL activity that involves that many people. Or do you think baseball/soccer/basketball leagues run themself and your team's coach only shows up for practice units without doing anything at all outside of that time?
If you think you should experience high end raiding content with two raiding days per week or less, imho you are in the wrong game genre. MMORPGs are not exactly known for requiring a minimum of invested time to complete.
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09/17/07, 2:48 PM
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#1099
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Von Kaiser
Bolg
Troll Priest
No WoW Account
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I quit the game before I saw as much raiding content in TBC as in vanilla and I won't comment individual fights. However, if what kaib says about coordination is true, I'm not surprised. It's not that hard to grasp that coordinating 25 is easier than coordinating 40 or more and I believe that if Blizzard wants to make really challenging raid encounters 25 players per raid won't be enough.
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09/17/07, 2:57 PM
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#1100
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Don Flamenco
Tauren Druid
Blutkessel (EU)
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I think people not having access to raiding content is certainly not a case of mono-causality. Something along the lines of "stuff is too hard" and "raiding takes too long" won't cut it. Hardcore vs casual is frowned upon for a reason here. But quite obviously raiding problems are not only the result of encounter tuning.
*rant*
I remember when AQ 40 was opened on my server we were just starting at chromaggus and it took us a couple of nights (3-4? but we never dedicated a full night to him since we were still farming MC) to down him. Just having the option of doing something argueably more efficient (-> go kill Skeram) was causing quite a bit of unrest for us. If we hadn't been raiding for a few month by then this might have well had a bigger impact on us. It was similar when we had the choice between Anub'rekhan, Razuvious, Ouro or C'thun and I think making a bad choice back then affected our motivation (and thus participation) in the long run and eventually killed our progression in Nax(in combination with the pvp patch). Getting people to farm resistance items and consumeables wasn't trivial either, since we always had trouble findind good recruits on our server, so we couldn't just say: "farm or leave".
*rant off*
I think making players go from 10 to (nontrivial... in a sense of "you actually need 25 people awake and at their keyboards") 25 man content and then offer them choices and basically demand consumeable use almost at the same time is, combined, just a bit over the top not only for the average joe raider but for most leaders as well. I think it would be better to face those different challenges over time and not all at once right when you start 25-man raiding. (As I mentioned earlier I even think its a bad idea to have a single PvE progression path that forces you to go from 10 to 25 man raiding ever.)
Besides Kael there isn't much to stop you from going BT/Hyjal once you sort these issues out. Additionally I think some people are mixing things up here. Wishing for a good introduction to 25 man raiding does not mean the current raiding is generally too hard. Actually it lacks a proper increase in difficulty at times (after Kael).
Just to emphasize:
Consumeable use in itself is not necessary a problem.
Difficulty in itself is not necessary a problem.
Being offerend choices is not necessary a problem.
Going from 10 man to 25 man is (in my opinion) a problem.
I think all of these combined (and I'm sure to have missed something) right at the start of BC 25-man raiding create huge problems for starting raiders.
Last edited by Furion : 09/17/07 at 3:40 PM.
Reason: spelling
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09/17/07, 3:43 PM
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#1101
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Don Flamenco
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Originally Posted by Kardinalen
I quit the game before I saw as much raiding content in TBC as in vanilla and I won't comment individual fights. However, if what kaib says about coordination is true, I'm not surprised. It's not that hard to grasp that coordinating 25 is easier than coordinating 40 or more and I believe that if Blizzard wants to make really challenging raid encounters 25 players per raid won't be enough.
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With 1.0 raiding, you could lose 2 or 3 people (as long as they weren't tanks) and still finish an encounter. 2.0 is much less forgiving, and certain encounters (Kael, Vashj, Gruul, Mag) require everyone to perform to the max of their ability while making sure they stay alive and overcome whatever mechanics the fights present.
Random abilities in encounters are also pretty crazy, but I'm a little jaded because we're working on Kael. Having someone get remote toyed while gazed by Thaladred is like Blizzard hitting the "You lose" button.
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09/17/07, 3:48 PM
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#1102
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Bald Bull
Orc Warrior
Burning Blade
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Originally Posted by Furion
Consumeable use in itself is not necessary a problem.
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I assume by "consumable use", you're referring to mana potions and ironshield potions, because the remainder of it is manageable by comparison. Blizzard needs to take a serious look at these, because they really don't add to the game in a raid environment, and really add to the "grindy" feel that I think burns a lot of people out. Most people who raid are at least a little bit competitive, and part of being competitive is feeling like you're giving 100% to the effort. Obviously, the more Blizzard does to increase the amount of time investment involved in giving 100%, the more they're going to alienate the semi-hardcore crowd that (and this is totally speculation) makes up the bulk of the end game raiding crowd. And I say this because it's something I hear over and over again from friends of mine who play the game and stopped raiding, or are playing the game but are feeling burnt on it. Healers in particular. They just don't see why they should have to put up with long hours in raids followed by long hours farming just to feel like they're doing the best they can and not short-changing their guild.
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09/17/07, 4:27 PM
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#1103
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Piston Honda
Night Elf Druid
Black Dragonflight
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Originally Posted by drats
Random abilities in encounters are also pretty crazy, but I'm a little jaded because we're working on Kael. Having someone get remote toyed while gazed by Thaladred is like Blizzard hitting the "You lose" button.
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The staff buff makes you immune to stun, how is that You Lose?
I'm only just beginning Hyjal and BT so I haven't seen the wonders of encounters like Mother S yet, but so far there haven't been any situations that aren't in the player's hands whether you win or you lose.
Last edited by Antoine : 09/17/07 at 6:58 PM.
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09/17/07, 5:54 PM
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#1104
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Soda Popinski
Drizbo
Undead Warrior
No WoW Account
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Originally Posted by Nezralix
They just don't see why they should have to put up with long hours in raids followed by long hours farming just to feel like they're doing the best they can and not short-changing their guild.
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I agree whole-heartedly with that last sentence, but I would go so far as to replace 'guild' with 'raid.' My position is probably a bit of a rare one on these boards: I'm not in a hardcore raiding guild; I'm in a very *very* casual one. We raid approximately whenever the hell we feel like it, more often than not spreading it out and pugging Kara with our alts and mains and whoever LFG turns up.
When I raid on my healer, no matter who else is in my group, if I think we're going to kill the boss that attempt or not, I will always use mana oils and pot and elixir up (mana pots are the big one here) if for no other reason than I will be damned before an attempt falls short because of me being greedy with my consumables. If I screw up a heal (which is pretty rare [shameless]), fine, my fault, it won't happen again. But if I go oom because I didn't pot early or often enough, that's inexcusable.
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09/17/07, 7:20 PM
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#1105
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Amera
In the same way Karazhan is doable with two healers or heroics are doable with one, SSC/TK are doable with 5-6. For the most part, 8 healers is a comfortable number for most guilds in 25 man content, especially if they don't want to constantly be swapping people in and out for every fight. I think 3 is pretty standard for Karazhan, and 1.5 for heroics.
Extending this you are looking at 1.5 for 5 mans. 3 for 10 mans, and 6.5 for 25 mans. So really you are only talking about maybe 1 extra healer for your 25 man ratio, which really isn't too bad at all on Blizzard's part.
But he was talking about tanks and healers, and you certainly don't need 5 tanks on all fights. Maybe 2 fights in SSC, 2 in TK, and a handful in T6 (probably Hyjal trash), but in general you certainly don't need 5 tank-specced tanks for anything, while you will need 6-8 healing specced healers.
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Hmm, we generally did Kara with 1 tank, and then 1 "off-tank"...either a feral, or a DPS warrior who could throw on a shield for the few bosses that 2 tanks helped on, or the trash pulls where 2 tanks helped. Furthermore, said DPS warriors and ferals also tanked many heroics for us.
So on Hydross/Fathomlord, it was no stretch at all to have these people tank some adds, whereas in the guild we never went over 3 "tank-specced" players. To this day we still use ferals in raids. They will tank on some encounters and on trash, DPS on others, and while they are dpsing, they are always ready to shift over and cover somewhere if a tank is needed (Doom on an Azgalor OT, weapons on P2 Kael, all the Hyjal trash, etc).
I fail to see why people are forming the 1, perfect, ideal heroic group, then trying to multiply it by 5. In every guild out there, heroics have been run with DPS wars or ferals tanking, with odd setups on their DPS, with different #s and classes healing. Hell, I bet some ferals have healed heroics (oh, we use our ferals to heal in some raid encounters too....).
Anyway, we didn't have to add or drop any archetype in 25man raiding from what we had been doing in Kara or heroics.
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