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Old 05/11/07, 2:02 AM   #1
Binkenstein
mumbo-jumbo-theorycrafter
 
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Pandaren Shaman
 
Saurfang
Loot Aquisition: PvP vs PvE

Following a discussion on the TC IRC channel today, I thought I'd make a thread on the same subject.

The guts of it boils down to how loot acquisition through PvP is more predictable than PvE.

In PvP you grind X number of points/tokens, and there's your loot.

In PvE you go back to the same boss week after week, hoping that some random chance drops the item you want, and that there's no one else that is going to also want it. The loot tokens introduced in ZG were nice, but imo did not go far enough.

Nexus Crystals aside, what are your opinions on a complete token based system, still keeping the loot tables as they are (ie: token from Aran only usable for current Aran drops).

This would help reduce the "Never Drops" cases where people just never see items at all, and get random stuff that gets disenchanted all the time. It would be fair to say that reducing the drops to one would keep things in balance, but it would make a nice, more predictable change to loot acquisition than currently.

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Old 05/11/07, 2:05 AM   #2
Ghando
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Tauren Shaman
 
Mal'Ganis
This would be good for consistency but would seriously reduce the devs' choices in itemization (i.e. weapon drops being special low-% treasures) and would reduce the "fun" element in looting a boss. Aren't you excited and eager to see what a boss drops any given week, especially if it's new?

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Old 05/11/07, 2:09 AM   #3
Sapp
Bald Bull
 
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Human Paladin
 
<NI>
Detheroc
I'd rather just get the damn (axe/pants/shield/trinket/*item*) and be done with it, really.

The fun parts are fighting new bosses and gathering loot. The random part of the gathering loot is not part of the fun.

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Old 05/11/07, 2:24 AM   #4
• malthrin
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This seems like more of a case for loot tokens being a good idea than anything about PvE or PvP. In either progression track, the average rate of acquisition of a given item will depend on player skill and the group he surrounds himself with.


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Old 05/11/07, 2:34 AM   #5
Harmonics
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Terenas
Having a totally token based system places some additional stress on loot systems, I think. Kill a boss and everyone bids? talk about tension. Or for loot council, thats a lot of pressure on your council. The warrior/priest/druid ones are interesting enough as it is.

Plus, it's not really in the developers interest to let people gear up that fast, they want loot to get sharded sometimes, Think about how fast your guild would have been out of MC if nothing was ever sharded? Yeah it was a boring instance, but at least we were raiding instead of jumping around the diamonds in Ironforge

This seems like more of a case for loot tokens being a good idea than anything about PvE or PvP. In either progression track, the average rate of acquisition of a given item will depend on player skill and the group he surrounds himself with.
Clearing Karazhan in 4 hours or taking all 7 days doesn't relate to the average time it takes to get a particular peice from the instance in the least. As long as you are good enough to kill the dragons, you get the loots.

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Old 05/11/07, 2:55 AM   #6
Allannen
Glass Joe
 
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Shadowsong (EU)
For my part I'd like it if it was more token based. Granted there would be a lot more people bidding on the items but atleast you could predict it in some way by seeing how many could possibly want the e.g. 1h-weapon token and how much dkp they have.

My biggest reason for this is that I usually can't be in every raid, more like 50% and if I'm not there when they kill the boss that I want the loot from I might not get the chance again for another 2 weeks and next time crap drops whereas the time I couldn't be there the item got sharded.

Granted, this would make the rare stuff much less rare and fun to get. With this system you would not be alone with the Talon of Azshara unless yours is the only guild who killed Morogrim on server but I think the benefits weigh more here.

As someone said before, half the fun is seeing the loot. Not sure if I agree acctually. Yes it's ok _before_ you see the loot, you're all exited and "Hope my loot dropped and that I get it !" but when you open loot/loot gets posted and your stuff doesn't drop... That's not as fun.

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Old 05/11/07, 2:56 AM   #7
Ngita
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Human Paladin
 
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Proudmoore
It would reduce the excitement and induce much more competition between members of the raid. I also like at the moment the fact their is offset items. For example healing gloves and Shoulders as well as the t4 Gloves and shoulders.

But at the same time it would reduce the painful randomness . 12 Void Crystals this week and we only cleared to aran so far and yet despite killing maiden every reset for the last 3 months I still dont have either healing bracers or mace from Maiden. Yes since this isnt wow forums I know the odds arent against me, its just annoying.

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Old 05/11/07, 3:13 AM   #8
Murasame
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Stormscale
A single token tier armor loot system is what I have always thought wow should do. Instead of 3diff tokens with certain class restrictions on each token the bosses that drop tokens should just drop 1. That token would be piece restricted like token A is only helms, token B is only shoulders, ect. No more multiple class tokens. It would make getting tier sets a bit easier.


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Old 05/11/07, 3:15 AM   #9
Bluefish
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Troll Shaman
 
Lethon
"Blizzard wants sharded loot to slow down raid progression."

Why?

If Kz was on a token-based system I'd have all the loot I wanted from Kz. I'd also still be paying the exact same amount of cash a month for my subscription. How much of WoW's raiding population would cancel their subscriptions once they had their character totally decked out? It seems like a very small minority to me.

It's not necessary that Aran drop one "Aran token" -- what if he dropped a quest item that stacks to 10 and a stack buys you your drop, a la the honor system? What if clearing X bosses in Karazhan awards you X Violet Eye reputation in a week and you can spend rep to buy gear, a la the arena system?

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Old 05/11/07, 3:32 AM   #10
Grunge
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Kor'gall (EU)
The reason why Blizzard would want loot to be sharded is to limit progression. It's been discussed on these forums before but TBC pretty much came shipped with everything. Ie. next big instance after Black Temple will come in the next expansion. Since they don't want people to work their way through the content too fast, they've made numerous roadblocks. Overtuned instances (SSC, Gruul Vol1, Magtheridon Vol1?) and attunements being the biggest. But disenchanting loot also hampers your progress (even if it is by a "insignificant" amount).

Overall I'd love a full-token based system, that way I'd probably have everything I wanted from Karazhan.
I don't even want to think how much paladin gear we disenchanted on our first weeks of Karazhan and how much loot was wasted since no one wanted it(hunter mail, subpar casteritems).

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Old 05/11/07, 5:37 AM   #11
Binkenstein
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Pandaren Shaman
 
Saurfang
Originally Posted by Harmonics View Post
Having a totally token based system places some additional stress on loot systems, I think. Kill a boss and everyone bids? talk about tension. Or for loot council, thats a lot of pressure on your council. The warrior/priest/druid ones are interesting enough as it is.

Plus, it's not really in the developers interest to let people gear up that fast, they want loot to get sharded sometimes, Think about how fast your guild would have been out of MC if nothing was ever sharded? Yeah it was a boring instance, but at least we were raiding instead of jumping around the diamonds in Ironforge
This is true, but I think dkp systems could be adjusted to cope with it/

The second part is why I mentioned that there may have to be a reduction in "items" dropped. Currently most bosses drop 2+ items, whereas with this system you'd probably only see one. Similar sort of loot progression timetable, but removes that "I hope 1 item out of 10 drops off this boss for me" type situation.

It would have helped my old guild in MC greatly, as all our druids had 8/8 fairly quickly, and we were sharding it left right and centre. Adding crystals as boss drops would help counteract any negative non-sharding of items effect as well.

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Old 05/11/07, 5:40 AM   #12
Kissmyaxe
Von Kaiser
 
Draenei Shaman
 
Silvermoon (EU)
The way I see it, loot randomness adds to the fun of the game. If there was no random element about loot drops, then everyone would use the exact same gear.

Some people raided BWL for years and didn't get the Rejuvenating Gem for example but that didn't stop their guild progress.

Why is it such a big deal if you don't have all he gear you want/need from an instance? You will run the instance anyway until it's viable for you guild and move on. If you didn't get that neck you always wanted I'm sure there is an alternative in the next instance. (This is not the case for TF for example, but I don't think any item will have the same impact ever again)

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Old 05/11/07, 5:51 AM   #13
Bluefish
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Troll Shaman
 
Lethon
Originally Posted by Grunge View Post
The reason why Blizzard would want loot to be sharded is to limit progression.
Yeah. That's what I said. You still haven't answered: Why?

Okay, Nihilum gets through Black Temple on the wings of more efficient loot acquisition, then wanders off to go do their thing. Oh noes, 40ish subscriptions down. Meanwhile, everyone else who raids is happier. How many people will quit once they get their characters completely geared up? How many quit because of frustrations with PvE progression? I contend that B is smaller than A, yet the current raid game -- consumable farming, randomness in encounters, randomness in loot, horrific keying requirements -- is designed as if the opposite is true. Randomness in encounters is being nerfed, consumable farming is being nerfed, streamlining the loot system is just the logical progression of the same idea.

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Old 05/11/07, 7:12 AM   #14
Repeek
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I think Blizzard is recognizing this idea partially by adding a 2nd token to all token dropping bosses. It's very unlikely that you'll see tokens for non-set gear such as weapons because rarity and difficulty are what set items apart. You would lose that "pimp factor" if everyone was rocking a Talon of Azshara or Dragonspine Trophy, I think some of the raiding base continues to raid to differentiate their character from the rest of server population. Granted they would still have their fame if they're the only guild pushing endgame content, but such fame would be short lived.
I could also foresee internal conflict over loot if everything was static and guaranteed. I think one of the reasons loot systems work so well is because there is a limited number of interest on particular items each week (imagine loot council with 25 people sending a tell on every item, or even DKP) and the chances of such items dropping keep people coming back week after week.

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Old 05/11/07, 7:32 AM   #15
Crowl
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Crowl
Night Elf Warrior
 
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How about having factions tied to each raid instance (already there for some and some would need new ones specific to that raid if people were already likely to be exalted) and once you hit revered you start to getting tokens dropping like the ones aq40 bosses dropped and once you hit exalted you had the option of handing in x amount of them for a certain drop.

You could set the amount needed to be handed in quite high so that people couldn't just gear up in that way, but it would be an ideal way to get those last couple of items that just refuse to drop when you are in the raid.

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