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Old 05/19/07, 1:32 PM   #101
Deris
Great Tiger
 
Worgen Death Knight
 
Executus
Originally Posted by zeidrich View Post
Hi Deris,

I'm a prot paladin, and I tank the first or first and second adds on Magtheridon for my guild as well.

If I'm tanking 2 adds I'm in full tanking gear. But then so would a warrior or a druid.

If I'm tanking a single add, I'm using high HP healing gear without becoming crittbale. That's a useful set throughout the fight anyways. Yes, I'm getting crushed, but so is a feral druid. The first add only crushes for like 3500 anyways. When the add is down I have full mana which I immediately blow on DPS, and then run in and judge/seal wisdom on the next add to recover some more mana. Same deal after that, I'm crosshealing DPS typically or helping out on a tank who's short on healing for whatever reason.

Can a feral druid tank the first add? Yeah of course, and then he contributes by doing DPS.
Can a arms/fury warrior tank the first add? Yeah of course, and then he contributes by doing DPS.
Can a prot paladin tank the first add? Yeah, of course, and then he contributes by healing DPS.
I'm glad for you, and I'm glad your guild lets you do that.

But what you are doing is still sub-optimal for any raid, and you would be far, FAR better off using a Feral Druid in that instance with full DPS gear on.

Feral Druids are the perfect Hybrids at the moment, whereas Paladins and to a lesser extent Warriors are pigeonholed via spec. Heal/Tank all you want as Prot, you are still performing a sub optimal role which has no place in raiding as far as I am concerned. Until I hear people say "man I wish we had a prot Paladin" or "We need you to respec" the class is still unbalanced and still fails in a min/max environ which is what raiding boils down to.

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Old 05/19/07, 1:37 PM   #102
Cathela
Still Bald Bull
 
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Human Paladin
 
Earthen Ring
Originally Posted by Deris View Post
I'm sorry :/.

What does he do after he is done tanking? Heal in tanking gear? This is the main crux of the problem - a Druid tanking in DPS Gear isn't a huge problem. A Prot Paladin tanking in Heal Gear you would be better off having one of your warriors taking two mobs. AFAIK our Arms/Fury Wars for Mag Add tanking don't use full tank gear if any, and just throw on a shield and maintain a way to push crushes off the table. Currently no amount of "hybrid" healing/tank gear can make this remotely possible for a Paladn.
Yeah, but the first add doesn't hit hard enough to make crushes worth worrying about, as long as you give your healers a little warning. When I tank the first one I just go for max spelldamage and mp5 so I can heal decently afterwards. I've never really had a problem with it.

EDIT: Mind you, a 41/20/0 paladin is probably a better choice for that slot, though.

My comrades are my weapons, and I am their shield.

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Old 05/19/07, 2:04 PM   #103
Antarius
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Paladin
 
Scilla
Originally Posted by suicuique View Post
I find it odd, that you distinguish between warrior specs but not so with paladins.
Because in our guild we have prot warriors and dps warriors.

The dps warriors are 3x/2x/0, and have no points in prot, they rarely, if ever tank. The prot warriors are x/x/4x Prot.

Every paladin in the guild is 4x/1x/0

Yet when a prot warrior doesn't need a tanking piece, it has been defaulted to the dps warriors with zero talent points in prot (for going on months now) over any of the paladins, because even IF the maintanks quit, the dps warriors could respec and be a viable raid tank, wheras the paladins are not considered viable outside of their healing role in my guild. All of our offtanking is done by ferals.

Not every guild like that obviously, but mine is, which is why I made the distinction.

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Old 05/20/07, 3:07 AM   #104
PsiVen
Don Flamenco
 
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Dwarf Paladin
 
Kilrogg
Originally Posted by sadistic View Post
Also, the new boots that dropped off najentus could be an indicator of blizzard taking pally-tanks more serious.
It doesn't matter how seriously Blizzard takes prot paladins until the players feel that way. Any guild starting BT that doesn't use them already is going to see those boots drop, give them to a warrior, and maybe whine a little that they don't have agility instead of spell damage. I suspect this will be the case even when paladins are balanced fully; we'd need to be overbalanced beta-feral style to get more people to try it out and have a more even representation.

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Old 05/20/07, 3:39 AM   #105
Amera
Jedi Knight
 
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Amera
Night Elf Priest
 
No WoW Account
Something that has really frustrated many people in all sorts of games is hybrids - they need a really fine balance so that they cannot replace other classes because they are not primarily one role. You could argue that paladins are the best healers but I wouldnt want to raid without druids/shamans/priests, why should we be trading in our warriors?
If all warriors could do was tank, I don't think anyone would disagree with you. But warriors are not a pure class, why is their tanking treated like one?

Paladins are the "least hybrid" hybrid class at the moment. It is overlooked because we are exceptional healers, both in PvE and PvP, but the way the distribution of raiding classes goes right now, paladins are the primary healers and nothing else.

Originally Posted by Deris
Feral Druids are the perfect Hybrids at the moment, whereas Paladins and to a lesser extent Warriors are pigeonholed via spec. Heal/Tank all you want as Prot, you are still performing a sub optimal role which has no place in raiding as far as I am concerned. Until I hear people say "man I wish we had a prot Paladin" or "We need you to respec" the class is still unbalanced and still fails in a min/max environ which is what raiding boils down to.
Also, this. You have a few ways to look at hybrids:

1) Able to perform multiple roles, but only one at a given time with spec/gear. Makes up for being worse than a pure class through synergistic abilities.
2) Able to perform multiple roles at the same time, using the same gear. Makes up for being worse than a pure class through this multi-tasking ability.

In both cases, hybrids make up for being "worse" than pure classes by providing an auxiliary benefit. I would say right now that shaman, priests, and warriors all fit nicely into #1. Druids fit nicely into #2, and occasionally warriors as well.

For the most part, paladins are neither of these in high-end raiding. Their synergistic abilities are either non-existent (prot) or too weak (Ret) to make up for not being a pure class in #1, and the sheer stat dependency on gear basically rules out #2.

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Old 05/20/07, 6:17 AM   #106
kaib
Don Flamenco
 
Undead Warlock
 
Dentarg (EU)
As someone suggested on page 1, a Paladin tank is great for the Al'ar encounter. We always have one of our holy paladins respec for this fight. Generally Paladin tanking is very well suited to tank lots of low hitting melee mobs, but the way the adds spawn and usually aggro on healers right after they show up make a Paladin the best off-tank for this fight as it's the only class with both a range taunt and a serious range aggro move.
Also the Paladin taunt mechanic taking aggro from all mobs that are on one player is superior as all new spawns typically aggro on one guy.

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