There's a posting trend that has been going on for a while, but has become particularly noticeable as of late, and it needs to stop.
While having active forums is nice, if the signal:noise ratio starts to get out of hand, that benefits no one. A lot of you are awfully repetitive, and not in a measured or thoughtful way. Making the same point over and over in any thread that remotely touches on a given topic isn't really adding to any discussion, and only serves to derail and obfuscate the original threads of conversations that do spring up.
In particular, if you think that WoW-TBC isn't "casual friendly" enough, or that it has too many barriers to entry in the raid game, or the like, fine. But when that attitude dominates and dictates the content of practically every single post you make, it's time to take a step back. If your point was worthwhile, and well-articulated, it would've been noted and appreciated the first time it was made, or the second, or the fifth. By the tenth time, no one cares how eloquently stated it is, because they're sick of hearing it. If you think I might be talking about you in particular, I probably am. And note that this is by no means a "we're hardcore here, casuals go home" post -- I'm using it to illustrate something I've seen too much of recently. Someone who came here (as certain people have in the past) and did nothing but complain about how WoW is dumbing their game down too much, how nerfs to raid content are an insult to good players, and so forth, they'd be looked down upon equally (and have been!). Some of the posts/posters I see here remind me of console fanboys trying to "discuss" video games. If your posting drips with bias, is it really going to contribute anything?
Please, ask yourself, before you post, whether you're really adding anything new to a discussion. Yes, right now we're bored and waiting for 2.1 to go live and fix all our woes. But is it really constructive to complain about how hard SSC is, how gear upgrades are nonexistent, and how trash is excessive? Yeah, no shit, that's true, but it's also been beaten to death as a topic, Blizzard took heed, and it's already fixed on the PTR. Have some sense of perspective, please.
We have over 10000 registered users, and hundreds of people logged in at any given time. We welcome and encourage participation in this community, but people need to be judicious about their posting in general, or the community as a whole suffers for it.
Generally a personal agenda can be something that is okay to have, but you do not want to be the nutty person on the street corner throwing pamplets into peoples faces, eventually people would ignore you and whatever you are saying even if the point is valid, which would be unfortunate if the point itself is well made.
Generally a personal agenda can be something that is okay to have, but you do not want to be the nutty person on the street corner throwing pamplets into peoples faces, eventually people would ignore you and whatever you are saying even if the point is valid, which would be unfortunate if the point itself is well made.
Really I was just surprised the thread wasn't locked and "FIRST!!!1" may have been going too far...
But for serious, it needed to be said. I know I'm not the only benefactor who reads the public forums less and less each day because of this.
Inform your dealers and whores of my credit, and pour me a goddamned drink!
I deliberately didn't lock the thread in case people wanted to discuss this, but in any event, people should also consider this as fair warning in terms of future deletion/infractions of posts.
I bitch about this game all the time, and I wonder if this is applying to me. I understand people not posting constructively, but making several posts with similar topics but unique points isn't necessarily non constructive. I know that you often play the devil's advocate and support blizzard when things are going bad - but if no one mentions how the state of the game is going, then nothing will change. There is nothing special about Blizzard employees - they are just kids in cubicles who have clearly lost their touch with the raid game.
I get this feeling the posts lately have struck a nerve with you, and that because you disagree with them you're making this post, namely the heroics are hard posts. If you do want the full discussion and community, you're going to have to deal with people who think heroics are too hard, and Al'ar is too easy at the same time, without censoring one side (who are obviously in a majority - and even though your post addresses this equality, it clearly does not at the same time). I don't agree with their perspective either, but its not non-constructive by any means.
Making a post that is constructive is key - and that should be the point of this thread. Alienating ideas is completely ridiculous imo. I'm just a poster so you can tell me to go to hell, but the point should be: don't be repetitive, and contribute to posts or we will use our already established banhammer judiciously and without warning - specific examples is alienating. You may not think as such, but the wording here actually just seems as a general threat toward people who don't like where the game is headed. I personally have a lot of problems with it - and I let it be known where the problems are and what should be done (I don't believe Furor hurt Everquest with his posts or suggestions either); and I think the posts are relatively well constructed and such. Just name your names and make your infractions - there is mindless repetition just to make arguments, and those should be the ones that get nailed, regardless of if its hunter dps discussion, or raid mechanics. Edit: oh and people who are drama ridden with their (as you very aptly stated) video game console fanboi level of rabidness need to be shot down also. That has also been a problem.
No, I'm certainly not talking about you. My intent is not to censor any viewpoint, and surely not to discourage criticism of the game (I probably tend to try to see things from Blizzard's perspective more than most, but when they fuck up, they need to be called out on the carpet for it). I'm talking about people who really just have agendas, and aren't looking to contribute to a real discussion, because they aren't really listening or absorbing what others are saying in response. I used the specific example because it's what I've noticed a lot of recently, but not because that's the underlying idea I want to suppress.
Basically, I want to give fair warning before people start getting dinged for something, and this is that fair warning.
"Heroics are too hard" or "heroics are a barrier to entry" is a reasonable point. No problem there. I may disagree, but that's not the issue here. The problem is people who, really, if you look at their post histories, are basically repeatedly saying, "I want the game to be X, Blizzard should make it X to suit my needs, and I'm going to remind everyone of that at every possible opportunity." And then they post in thread about raiding, about professions, about PvP, about itemization, etc., basically just repeating that self-centered point. At times it seems that people are basically making "[BLUE PLZ]" posts, hoping that Tigole is going to pop up out of nowhere and say "That's brilliant! We'll implement it right away!"
In short, these are "fuzzier" offenses than the usual trolling, incoherent typing, etc., and I want to give people collectively a chance to stop doing it, or to reflect on whether they may be, before punishing it.
Many of the posts I have read in several of the threads are the same person saying the same thing over and over. We heard you the first time, we may not agree but don't repost you comment because unless you have some new insight or evidence to add we will still disagree. Spamming an opinion does not convert people it alienates them.
Also for this should be for the people who post in a thread something that was posted earlier on the SAME PAGE. Please read new posts before posting. You can ad your veiws on the subject just fine in other ways than adding the link AGAIN and saying look here. We already saw it. Though so as not to discourge posting breaking news, if you don't see it or a conversation about it then please let us know.
Originally Posted by Zyla
Plus, my anus is painfree and still virginal!
Originally Posted by madsushi
Honestly, if you're any good, then you know about the changes as soon as they happen and you adjust. If you're not any good, Blacksen's already benched you by now, and so who cares.
"Heroics are too hard" or "heroics are a barrier to entry" is a reasonable point. No problem there. I may disagree, but that's not the issue here. The problem is people who, really, if you look at their post histories, are basically repeatedly saying, "I want the game to be X, Blizzard should make it X to suit my needs, and I'm going to remind everyone of that at every possible opportunity." And then they post in thread about raiding, about professions, about PvP, about itemization, etc., basically just repeating that self-centered point. At times it seems that people are basically making "[BLUE PLZ]" posts, hoping that Tigole is going to pop up out of nowhere and say "That's brilliant! We'll implement it right away!"
In short, these are "fuzzier" offenses than the usual trolling, incoherent typing, etc., and I want to give people collectively a chance to stop doing it, or to reflect on whether they may be, before punishing it.
I see, this makes perfect sense, and I did assume this is what you were writing about initially. It does clutter up threads and become mind numbing to hear the same things being repeated 10 different ways because no one acknowledged their point initially. The flavor of the OP to me at least, felt like you were on the offensive to things that struck a cord with you - which is why I felt obligated to bring it up; but even if that were the case in terms of priming this thread, the point above is more than fair regarding establishing ground rules to keep discussion solid.
I'm glad you did leave this thread open - some things which are read plainly are sometimes ambiguous for others.
Basically I mentioned it in some other threads, because folks in my guild talk about your forums quite a bit. But one thing that was said was "Unless there is solid control, these types of uber forums inevitably fall to the trolls; I've seen it in a few prior MMO's." The banhammer and active modding definitely is key to curbing the internet retardedness factor and keeping this place the relative xanadu of information and discussion - definitely keeping hammering, or give Kaubel another foot on the scary leash.
I think it's important to note, Gurg, that bias doesn't come from nowhere. If a persons post "drips with bias," it is entirely possible that they are biased for a reason, even for many reasons.
What makes a bad post is taking that bias and venomously initiating a diatribe against Blizzard, or other players and posters here. I've been guilty of this (Quigon called me out on being too melodramatic once) and so have others who sometimes get an infraction. Taking a bias and making it into a all-consuming agenda is also very bad, and I think that is what Gurg is trying to squash here. Repetitive posts can fall under this, but I think there are a lot of times when we get some repetition because the other side of an argument is quite dense.
On the other hand, what makes a good post is taking that bias (i.e. your opinion) and clearly explicating the reasoning behind it. That's the point of a discussion board. I think Elsia's post (for which Kaubel gave a "Trolling" infraction, surprisingly) was actually excellent in doing this. In marked contrast to a couple others, Elsia didn't include any ad hominem or otherwise venomous language. Guilty of repetition? Maybe, but a lot of people (me included) were/are guilty of misunderstanding some fundamental arguments. Maybe I'm the dense one, but it took me until reading that last post (in the Banhammer, ironically) to "get" what Elsia was talking about.
Edit: Damn, take a bit to write a reply and there are 3 more since you refreshed.
'War' is too small a word for what I'm fighting. Like a candle in front of the whole burning Sun. Now, I am not going to die today. I have other projects, and other options.
I see, this makes perfect sense, and I did assume this is what you were writing about initially. It does clutter up threads and become mind numbing to hear the same things being repeated 10 different ways because no one acknowledged their point initially.
Yes, one of the reasons for this post is probably the direction your Raid Size thread went (GRRR I HATE KEYING) as you observed at some point in the thread.
Taking a bias and making it into a all-consuming agenda is also very bad, and I think that is what Gurg is trying to squash here. Repetitive posts can fall under this, but I think there are a lot of times when we get some repetition because the other side of an argument is quite dense.
On the other hand, what makes a good post is taking that bias (i.e. your opinion) and clearly explicating the reasoning behind it.
I think the real issue gets back to the signal:noise ratio. The first post might make your opinion 90% clear, so that's great. The second makes it 99% which is forgivable. A third post to make your opinion 99.9% clear is simply a waste of time though. Just because it makes things clearer doesn't mean it's worth the space.
Originally Posted by Kazanir
Maybe I'm the dense one, but it took me until reading that last post (in the Banhammer, ironically) to "get" what Elsia was talking about.
If the 10th post was so enlightening, then the real issue was why posts 3-9 didn't contribute. To me that gets back to the, "Think before you post" directive. Obviously the chance of posting at least one useful post increases as the number of posts approaches infinity, but that's not a strong argument for posting everything that enters your head.
Many of the posts I have read in several of the threads are the same person saying the same thing over and over. We heard you the first time, we may not agree but don't repost you comment because unless you have some new insight or evidence to add we will still disagree. Spamming an opinion does not convert people it alienates them.
Also for this should be for the people who post in a thread something that was posted earlier on the SAME PAGE. Please read new posts before posting. You can ad your veiws on the subject just fine in other ways than adding the link AGAIN and saying look here. We already saw it. Though so as not to discourge posting breaking news, if you don't see it or a conversation about it then please let us know.
I know this is a problem of mine, and I'm working on it - thanks for the warnings. I do try to keep it to threads that are actively discussing "What Blizzard has got wrong in raiding", though - kept it out of the class theorycrafting forums where I'm exposing my nub rogue ignorance :-)
Part of the problem stems from trying to respond individually to several different disputants. Basically I need to read EJ less often and respond to people in batches, if at all.
I'd like to stay here, and hope my contributions in future will be more valuable. I can't however pretend that I won't be approaching these debates from the perspective of someone having a lot of pain and trouble trying to hold together a casual raid group - becaus e that's what I am.
In the second case, maybe there should be more polls. Everybody could voice his opinion without cluttering the thread.
I doubt more polls would resolve anything. A poll is not a replacement to a discussion--at best, it's a supplement that neatly categorizes the opinions of those who cared to vote. At worst, it's irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
If a poll replaces a discussion, it's probably not a very worthwhile discussion in the first place.
Personally, I would love to be able to have an open discussion on dkp systems that didn't devolve into x is so much better than y. Unfortunately, these types of threads are incredibly prone to having exactly what your concerned about crop up. Having constructive questions/criticisms of systems that doesn't turn into a flame war is something that I am hoping this extra moderation will help get off the ground.
Well I have been named and I want to head out of this board but I want to address this real quick.
How does repetitiveness come about?
Well, you have a situation that you want to describe. Particularly the situation for heterogeneous raid groups. You make an initial post, you get responses. Some responses don't really correspond to your situation, you reinterate and clarify. If you do that for too long you may create a long-winded thread.
I personally would be quite happy if topics resolved quickly. But this doesn't happen so easily sometimes.
On the hunter situation, there is a broad consensus that there is a problem and after some also rather longish discussion even other classes I think got the argument. The thread is still going on but I haven't been posting there because I felt all was said. As for the heterogeneous raiding situation I found it more difficult. I have tried hard to lead factual discussion and highlight personal experience and actual reasons. The result was some concurring posts, some opposing or questioning posts and a few flames.
Are many other threads here repetitive? Certainly. What is the judgement? I won't know.
But all this doesn't matter. My stance is, this is EJ's board. If they find a topic trite or worn out or not applicable to the need of their intended readership or simply consider a topic high noise and low impact they should set a frame and cut the loose edges.
I have requested twice for my account to be deleted and it hasn't happened yet. Please don't expect me to respond to this. Thanks and enjoy the board, it's a great place with lots of stimulating and intelligent discussion.
Am I correct in summarizing this as, "Would you please read in addition to the original post, every post between your reply and that, and should you find its twin, reconsider the SUBMIT REPLY button."?
Everybody is your brother until the rent comes due.
Am I correct in summarizing this as, "Would you please read in addition to the original post, every post between your reply and that, and should you find its twin, reconsider the SUBMIT REPLY button."?
Not precisely. Look, I realize we have 30-page threads at times. Do I, myself, always read all 600 posts before replying? No. But I certainly read the immediate discussion to which I'm replying. It always boggles my mind how people will post "hey guys, flasks are getting nerfed!! <link to WoW Forums>" when the past two pages have been a discussion of the consumable changes.
But that's not even really what my OP was about. Obviously people should read before they post, and shouldn't mindlessly repeat prior posts. What I want is a bit more subtle, and an appreciation that it's not always helpful to belabor certain points, or to make points that no longer have relevance (e.g., complaining about SSC being too hard for mid-level raiders when it's obviously being heavily nerfed in the upcoming patch). I want to keep the discussions here as fresh as possible. Reading the same thing for the 20th time isn't enjoyable. Reading a thread where 20 foolish people are debating one stubborn person for three concecutive pages isn't enjoyable.
Am I correct in summarizing this as, "Would you please read in addition to the original post, every post between your reply and that, and should you find its twin, reconsider the SUBMIT REPLY button."?
While I'm sure this is primarily aimed at that, there's also a not insignificant amount of people who can occasionally border on proselytizing, posting a unique-to-thread viewpoint in an excessive number of threads.
I realize I'm guilty of this occasionally myself, and it's not hard to get worked up over something that fundimentally alters something you like a lot. In addition, when people simply don't seem to react to the posts it can feel like you're yelling in a vacuum, leading to a fairly common reaction of upping the volume.
Of course there's a really fine line here: what if some point you brought up in the consumables post 2.1 thread is incredibly relivant and a serious issue as it pertains to warrior threat generation? There's a decent chance there's not a lot of crossover there, and if I was only following one of those threads I'm sure I'd want to know about it. If you're complaining about having to farm for the umpteenth time...well, you get the point.
This is just my read, but I think I'm on the money.
As always, the high level of moderation really does make it a pleasure to read and keep up with these boards. I know it's a rough job for you guys, but keep up the good work!
But in all seriousness, the only thing I don't understand is why this thread is being kept open. The problem presented here is very apparent in recent threads, and quite honestly if you're not seeing it then perhaps you should go back and take a look at the last 10, maybe 20 posts that you've made to make sure that you're not who's being targetted here.
Praetorian has posted a fair warning about something that he doesn't want to see on his forums. If you don't like it, then leave.
Nice to see you are saying something about this. Past few weeks to me these forums have just fallen apart resulting in me visiting them less (well besides the issue of there really isn't much interesting thats happening to talk about either).
If people gave well reasoned arguments w/ evidence and read what has already been stated on the topics taking into consideration that would be great though its definitely the rehash of threads thats annoying.
Anyways back to my lurking till I spot something of interest to respond to.
I've probably been guilty of this a little, although I don't really post very much now for lack of worthwhile stuff to post ABOUT.
I suppose the thing about repeating oneself is that people are trying to build a consensus that there's a problem to fix. A consensus here has historically actually been worth something... or is as long as these boards remains un-sucky and Blizzard continues to pay attention, and so of course many of us have abused this shamelessly to campaign. Things rarely seem to get fixed without some sort of noise, in life as in WoW, and perhaps unfortunately this has become the de facto forum for getting stuff changed as well as the de facto forum for interesting WoW-related discussion.
At the risk of ironically repeating myself (to those who have access to the Benefactor's Forums, anyway), this is why Blizzard need better avenues for communication: so we don't need to screw up the EJ forums with all these "change this! nerf this! this sucks!" threads
05/18/07, 11:57 AM
