I just noticed a post in a PTR-Forum where someone mentioned that the final boss of a heroic instance on PTR dropped three (not soulbound) Motes of Nether instead of one (soulbound) Primal Nether.
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That's... a major change for crafting, and kind of bizarre. I'd love to hear more about this. Only the end boss dropped motes, or was it every boss? I could see if every boss dropped ~3 motes so that you could share the yield from a given instance run more evenly, but 3 Motes from a full instance run seems insane. Even with the ability to turn in badges, how is that remotely fair to smiths who need a ton of Nethers to upgrade their weapons?
The fact that they are not BoP is a pretty huge change, though, and surprising. I thought that the whole point of Nethers in BoE crafting was to enable crafters to make a profit via their tradeskills. BoE Nethers means I combine Felsteel Reaper for tips now instead of effectively selling Nethers for 200g+ each.
BoE Nethers means I combine Felsteel Reaper for tips now instead of effectively selling Nethers for 200g+ each.
Why so? Sure, do it for tips if they provide the nether. If you provide the nether, you charge for the nether. Or if you run the instances and get more nether than you can use, sell them for profit instead of having them rot in your bank.
In a free market, the price you're able to charge for your BoP nether will gravitate to the same level as the customer would pay on the open market for a BoE nether. The supply is the same (modulo changes in drop rate, ability to buy them with badges, etc.) and the demand is the same (modulo changes in the number of nethers required per item). Thus, making them BoE should have no impact on pricing.
What this change would however mean is that if a nether (or motes) drop and there's no crafter in the party, it's not wasted. And it also means that all people in the party get a chance of an equal reward. Say you're the one crafter in a party that does a Heroic instance, why should you get 200g more than anyone else in the party? It's not like there's 200g worth of adamantite spawns for the miners, or 200g worth of herbs for the alchemists.
It does seem odd, but not unexpected. If you've visited the profession forums in the last month or so every other post is a "QQ primal nether" thread from the "engineering community". I guess they took a page from the tailoring uproar.
Though it does strike me as odd that people are so adverse to actually playing the game.
The fact that they are not BoP is a pretty huge change, though, and surprising. I thought that the whole point of Nethers in BoE crafting was to enable crafters to make a profit via their tradeskills. BoE Nethers means I combine Felsteel Reaper for tips now instead of effectively selling Nethers for 200g+ each.
I don't think the cost of the tip (aka. crafting fee) will suffer very much from this change. From my experience, the economics of selling crafted materials that use nethers felt like 80g for the nether, and whatever you could charge on top was the cost of the recipe. I know five tailoring recipes that use nether (Whitemend Hood, Battlecast Hood, Spellstrike Pants, Golden Spellthread, Runic Spellthread) and the market price on nether differs based on recipe. Battlecast rarely sells for more than 80g while I've made several Whitemend at 120g+. So I'm really charging 40g + nether for the Whitemend Hood. I think this is because more people run Steam Vaults than Botanica. After the patch I assume I'll make Whitemend for 40g + mats (including nether in their mats).
Last edited by tedv : 05/21/07 at 1:00 PM.
Reason: Trimmed some statements duplicating a previous posting
I agree that this is weird. It doesn't seem like it's finished, like Gurg said it would make more sense if each of the heroic bosses dropped a few BoP motes instead of the last boss going from a guaranteed nether to some tradeable motes. WoWhead doesn't have any drops listed yet (neither does Thott) so it must be a pretty recent addition.
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Eh, my nostalgia goggles aren't as good as they used to be.
The fact that they are not BoP is a pretty huge change, though, and surprising. I thought that the whole point of Nethers in BoE crafting was to enable crafters to make a profit via their tradeskills. BoE Nethers means I combine Felsteel Reaper for tips now instead of effectively selling Nethers for 200g+ each.
We all assumed this, based on the implementation, but did they ever come out and explicitly state this?
At least on my server, "casuals" (i.e. trade channel puggers) just now entering the stage where they are trying and succeeding at PuG heroics. The "wow factor" has died down and they got their free "10 losses a week" arena gear so they're dusting off their QQ and bitching about how double-gatherers, enchanters, etc get no benefit, and have no potential 200g "heroic bonus" in nethers.
I would conjecture that they are non-soulbound because you can't split stacks in the loot window, so you can't split 10 nether bits among 5 people unless you're allowed to pass them around.
Last edited by Fizwidget : 05/21/07 at 1:05 PM.
Reason: L2Spell Fiz!
BoE nethers drastically alters their value. I have Felsteel Reaper plans, but the supply at any given time on the server was limited by the number of people who have the plans AND who also have the Nethers to use the plans. Demand exceeds supply, generating a seller's market, and allowing crafters, for once, to make a real profit using their tradeskills.
If I were a miner I could farm adamantite and sell stacks of ore for 20g+, or if I were an herbalist I could farm any number of herbs and sell them. Crafters have never been able to command that sort of profit, except for a handful of people who controlled the market on a very limited commodity (the first enchanter on M'G Horde who got the Mongoose enchant made an absolute killing, just as the first smith with Arcanite Reaper plans 2+ years ago did).
Your statement that "Thus, making them BoE should have no impact on pricing" is completely false, because, as you say, any Nethers in existence that are not in the hands of a smith who can make Felsteel Reapers do not count for the purposes of what I can charge for Felsteel Reapers. People making Golden Spellthreads or whatever, where the recipe in question is much more widespread, sold their Nethers for far less, because the supply of useable Nethers was much higher. Myself and the other Felsteel Reaper crafters on the server had demand exceeding our realistic ability to obtain Nethers. When I have zero Nethers, and I have six people wanting me to make a Reaper or Dirge (I can do both) for them, I can afford to play the market and bid them up to a much higher level, as they aren't just buying the Nethers, they're buying my time to specifically go out and obtain two Primal Nethers just for them and their item. I've made over 600g from a single combine at times.
Take that away, and there is no source of profit for smiths. If I want to charge a lot for a Reaper combine, someone will say "Fine, I'm taking my nethers over to X, and he'll make it for me." It changes the market from one in which the buyers competed to outbid each other, to one in which the sellers compete to offer the cheapest combines. If I were a miner, I could spend a couple of hours farming and make a couple hundred gold with some luck (much more if I have good luck with Prospecting). As a smith, without Nether-based combines, I have nothing I can offer people. For basically every recipe up to 375 skill, players offer free combines for skillups, sometimes even offering to pay other people for the right to combine their items.
And yes, I can farm my own Nethers and sell them, but now I'm selling a commodity. I could be a miner/herbalist, and still run heroics for Nethers and sell them, for the same amount of money. The money is no longer coming from my tradeskill.
I smell fake. For instance, where is the "blue" overlay you get over an item when you hover it? There is no logic what-so-ever related to this.
Looking closer - I think that's good call. The background of the text doesn't look to me like it matches the background of the box it's in. Shows up especially on the "of Nether into" part of the green text.
On the other hand look on the bright side of this change. I know there's a lot of rare recipes held by people who can't be bothered to run heroics for the nethers.
I wish I could just hand it to them and get them to do it. If this goes through, I can.
I would tend to agree with Gurg on this. Being able to turn in badges is going to reduce the cost of nethers by itself. By having the motes be BOE you increase the supply of nethers by a considerable amount. Right now, a lot of nethers never see the market because the group may not have someone who can use them for BOE crafting.
I smell fake. For instance, where is the "blue" overlay you get over an item when you hover it? There is no logic what-so-ever related to this.
You mean the feedback button?
Not to mention the fact that "of" and "Nether" seem to be crammed awfully close together, and my eyes may be playing tricks on me but the picture seems blurred right around the "Neth" part of Nether in the green text.
I'm voting for "Wa"ter being shopped to "Neth"er and "Mote of Water" in white being replaced with "Mote of Nether" in blue.
"They're Dragon Kill Points; not Dragon Feed Points"
The icon looks like someone pasted a Primal Nether over a Mote of Earth - note that every 'Primal' icon has a distinct background, shared with their respective motes. If there were to be a 'Mote of Nether' icon, it wouldn't use that background.
Plus, the text in the tooltip isn't lined up correctly: "into" is 1-2 pixels lower than "Motes of Nether," the space between "Primal" and "Nether" on the second line is too small.
05/21/07, 12:33 PM
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