Slow (41 Arcane) in Raids - Page 3

Groat · 06/07/07, 4:26 PM

Well slow makes it so that a 3-minute mage can actually do a lot during that "downtime" until the killer hit is back up. It is highly effective to have two forms of crowd control on one character like that - this is justified as a 41 point talent but it would definitely be nice to see the cost reduced OR the duration increased for PVE - it is very expensive in its current form (not so bad as Spell Steal, but that is also an example of an overnerfed ability).

ebbv · 06/07/07, 4:36 PM

I don't see a ~600 mana, 15-second, single-target snare really being worth taking for PvE.

It's a great talent for PvP but, even then it's competing against Ice Block.

That said, spec how you want. I just wanted to make clear the original points in this thread advocating Slow were inaccurate, and it's only use in PvE is as a single-target snare.

Vhad · 06/07/07, 4:43 PM

Originally Posted by ebbv

That said, spec how you want. I just wanted to make clear the original points in this thread advocating Slow were inaccurate, and it's only use in PvE is as a single-target snare.

Which turned out to be make the Vashj fight for us, because our warlocks couldnt kite even with CoEX.

DecimusGarona · 06/07/07, 5:32 PM

Originally Posted by Vhad

Which turned out to be make the Vashj fight for us, because our warlocks couldnt kite even with CoEX.

I think if you are going to get a mage to spec to help snare adds on Vashj it would make more sense to have a frost mage? Frostbolts cost less mana than slow, and actually damage the mob as well.

Vhad · 06/07/07, 6:33 PM

Originally Posted by DecimusGarona

I think if you are going to get a mage to spec to help snare adds on Vashj it would make more sense to have a frost mage? Frostbolts cost less mana than slow, and actually damage the mob as well.

For us this was much easier, several reasons;

Slow is instant and gives me time to fire up a fireball before it gets to someone else, without any aggro reducing talents in fire its near impossible to lose aggro for me, plus it gives me snap aggro on #1 and #4 strider with pom pyro.

Initially I did some weird spec, 41 arc 20 frost without frost channelling and stuff to pom frostbolt and kite with frostbolt. That spec was horrendous for anything but that fight though so I went with a decent arcane spec +slow and pyro. Works for us. . .

Groat · 06/07/07, 8:56 PM

Likewise, worked very effectively for us as I could slow and fireblast to peel it off the initial aggro that healers get (until a hunter picked it up).

ifurita · 08/13/07, 11:03 AM

For SSC or TK bosses, does anyone actually know what portions of the Slow debuff work? From the posts above, it seems that Slow will slow the movement of adds in the Vashj encounter, and I assume lengthen the casting time for the priest and shaman in the Karathress encounter. I managed to apply Slow on Leotheras last night, but am not sure what part of it, if any, was actually taking effect. Some of my guildies claimed that Leo pathed more slowing during his whirlwind, but it was hard for me to tell standing at a distance (his spin animation was still quick). Can anyone confirm?

Also, what if anything does it do to Lurker?

ebbv · 08/13/07, 11:08 AM

Slow pretty much only works in the same spot that other effects of the same type work. The Casting Slow only works where Curse of Tongues works, for example.

Since Hamstring, Frost Trap, etc. don't work on Leotheras, Slow's movement speed debuff won't work either.

Slow is castable on mobs (Bosses, usually) where it will have no effect. This is the big reason why you get lots of claims of it doing things that it doesn't do (such as the origin of this thread.)

Aastarius · 08/13/07, 12:43 PM

One place it most certainly is effective is on the Striders during the Vashj encounter

BioXoxide · 08/13/07, 3:09 PM

Haven't tried Slow on Mags warlocks, gonna try it out when he is back up for us.

Northerner · 08/13/07, 3:44 PM

I think it's fair to say that Slow will work for the snare effect on anything snarable and will work for the casting speed debuff for anything that can be CoTed or poisoned. I certainly cannot think of an exception, although there might be something arcane immune out there that isn't coming to mind.

It's cost in terms of mana-per-second (and a GCD) is simply absurd though in most contexts. Even for the arguably best case of striders, it seems to me that it's inferior to a simple frostbolt and vastly worse in terms of mana for effect. It might be worth using on them as they spawn I suppose but dropping around 8k mana to keep Slow up on striders throughout phase two just doesn't seem wise to me. Surely if CoEx isn't working for you a respec to bite/perma would be more effective?

Every time this comes up though I feel like I must be missing something. I've never personally specced Slow for striders but with four of them per phase two and an average lifespan of three slows at least, it's just a damn lot of mana from my napkin math even if they never overlap.

Aastarius · 08/14/07, 6:30 AM

With regards to the strider's we generally have a warrior try to maintain Hamstring and have a Shadow Priest mind flay but occasionally "stuff" happens and being able to throw a slow on it is rather useful. We also have a couple of Arcane spec'd mages (including me) so we take it in turns plus having the shadow priest AND shaman in strider group does mean mana not a big issue for us. Being able to do this also means the kiting Warlock doesn't have to worry about CoEx and can concentrate on just generating aggro.

Jeru · 08/14/07, 10:23 AM

I tried kiting a magtheridon channeler when we were about to wipe, and slow doesn't work on them. It may increase cast time (couldnt tell because there was always COT up) but it definitely doesn't decrease their movement speed.

I know that slow would be too powerful if it worked on bosses and all kinds of mobs, it would make mages mandatory for most fights, and it would also pigeonhole all mages into 41 arcane. But I'm annoyed that the spell often gets applied, takes up a debuff slot, but doesn't actually do anything. Just make it immune then, but no half assed stuff...

Anyway, outside of raiding it's still a very good spell, I soloed all kinds of elite mobs like the defenders in heroic SP, the felguards in heroic BF, very useful there. In pvp it's kind of a mixed bag. It's a 30 yard, ranged, instant, spammable snare with no diminishing returns, which can be cast on the move and without facing the target. It's rather underrated. It's awesome for stopping flag runners in WSG. Most druids will run oom from shapeshifting before you do. It absolutely destroys shamans and hunters, because it also halves their ranged attack speed. Shamans can't remove it and kiting them becomes trivial. It's good against warriors. You can deny their charge and also snare them instantly. Trinket? Just reapply it. Rogues? It doesn't help against good ones, but dumb ones who don't shiv crippling or don't open with garotte can be kited easily. Most will pop cos when you apply it, just blink, run away and reapply it.

Against mages? It screws fire mages hard, but doesn't do much against frosties because they can kill you with just using instants. Same thing with warlocks. Screws destro ones but doesn't do a damn thing against affliction or demo. Against priests, pallies or druids it's pretty useless.
The most fun application for me is still the slow-sheep combo against horde trying to ride past IB >

Dismount them, let others deal with them and proceed to ez-mode dismount the next one!

Tyrian · 08/14/07, 10:58 AM

We use arcane/fire mages as main kiters on vashj and slow is invaluable for them.

Gauss · 08/14/07, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by ebbv

I don't see a ~600 mana, 15-second, single-target snare really being worth taking for PvE.

It's worth it if the majority of your guild is exceptionally lazy at support roles like mine is. I am constantly smoothing out small things such as snaring phoenixes on Kael'Thas or slowing necromancers on hyjal trash, so it is a worthwhile skill for me.

Also, there is a lot of misinformation in this thread. The tooltip is very explicit as to what slow affects. Additionally, slow will supercede weaker snares and will not stack with curse of tongues and the like. A double cast time on top of a double cast time would be extremely and unambiguously apparent.

Grai · 08/14/07, 12:23 PM

Most of what I'm about to say was stated already... but just to confirm.

-Slow and CoT do not stack.
-Very few mobs are vulnerable to the effects of slow, and, if they're a caster, you have to hope that they use that ability within the slow amount of time that slow it actually active.
-Slow costs a lot of mana and, regardless of a shadowpriest, attempting to keep it up even on one mob cuts significantly into DPS because of GCD and high mana cost.
- Slow works on Mag's warlocks cast time, but with CoT and decent interrupts, there's really no need.
- On Kara in SSC, interrupts on the healer should be quick enough that slow doesn't make a difference.

I tried slow much like OP, saying "we must be missing something" but really, we're not. It's not worth much. Fun in PvP, but not worth it in end-game.

Groat · 08/14/07, 1:00 PM

Doesn't stop me from keeping it in my spec! I still have fun with it and you do randomly find that it can have a use on some trash, but often, yeah, you get very little return from it. I still haven't really suffered from having it in my spec (41/17/3; I do a mix of fireball/Arcane blast for damage with my 2/5 T5 bonus). Hands down, it is underpowered for the cost, but I'm still glad to have it for rare cases (and it has saved me from dying in a few cases, but mostly not that much).

Jeru · 08/15/07, 4:57 AM

I think it's kind of hard to balance for raiding. It can't be more than situationally useful, else it would force all mages into arcane and would force people to bring mages. It's awesome for 5 mans, but only rarely useful for raiding.

For PVP, it needs some buffs though. I'm thinking something like dispel resistance, lower mana cost and higher range.