I was just reading through the Tseric post again, (http://blue.cardplace.com/newcache/us/102816485.htm) and I came across one of the comments from the person he was arguing with: "service jobs are hard, but most people do them, and most people dont make comments at the customers expense no matter how dumb or repetetive the question. its bad business, and, the customers always right."
I work in customer service and deal (daily) with some of the dumbest people I can possibly imagine. A couple of weeks ago, I asked a women for her email address so I could set up her account. Her response? "Kate.com"
Now, as much as I would love to tear in to these people, I don't. So I agree that you should always approach customers with a level of respect, but to assert that the customer is always right, is just idiocy. They are usually very wrong. In the case of the official WoW forums users, just because you pay for the game, they absolutely do not have the right to abuse other players, or create an atmosphere of "ME FIRST OMG! UR STEALING MY MONEY!"
I think the official WoW forums need a bit of Elitist Jerks attitude. There should be strict enforcement of clear-cut rules, and liberal use of the ban hammer. Right now, the general forums are a joke, and actually a major turn off. I believe that they turn away, or at least discourage players who are just looking for a little help.
First of all, there should be a team of moderators, who start cleaning the place up by suspending accounts and deleting moronic threads. They need to establish an environment of respect. For example, players should be suspended for "1st page!!!!" posts. No questions asked. 5 day suspension from posting new threads.
Secondly, I think there should be a way to vote on interesting threads, in the same style as Reddit.com (or Digg, although that place is almost as bad as the WoW forums these days.)
Users can either chose to view forums by most recent post, or list the posts in order with the most votes. This would, theoretically, keep interesting and useful topics at the top of the page, while also eliminating the *bump* post.
Lets work on a realistic set of goals here, which we can then post in the WoW Suggestions forum.
I was just reading through the Tseric post again,
Secondly, I think there should be a way to vote on interesting threads, in the same style as Reddit.com (or Digg, although that place is almost as bad as the WoW forums these days.)
To play devil's advocate...
If it's not working for Reddit.com, why would it work for the WoW forums?
Don't get me wrong: I'd love to see widespread use of the Banhammer as well. But, as usual, the devil is in the details.
The mere existence and popularity of this site can be used to argue both for, and against your opinion.
I personally don't think liberal use of banning on the forums would achieve anything, because the forum is a part of your paid service (though I'm not sure if it's implied or expressed stated). EJ forums, OTOH, are where people go to seek information from people who are more experienced with the game, and are generally more well versed in the mechanics of the game.
Regardless of how you would *like* to use the official wow forums, you have to accept that the game was publicized and really marketed toward the casual crowd. People who like to banter, etc. Even when you get a real discussion, there are very often very wrong opinions being thrown around on the forums. How would that be moderated? on EJ forums, someone can post an opinion and not have any supporting evidence, and pretty much expect the ban hammer to come shortly thereafter. On the official forums though, you can hardly hold the average player to such standards.
In short, it might be nice, but it's probably a pipe dream.
I definitely agree with this post. Many of us migrated to this forum because of the exact problem you bring up: lack of moderation combined with a large pool of morons makes for a bad time.
When trying to institute a new policy on moderation for a forum the size of WoW's, there first off needs to be a clearly defined policy on when threads are deleted, and when posters are banned. I would love to see a strong-arm approach taken by Blizzard, with a one-warning system in place.
Threads created with the sole purpose of whining on any subject should immediately be deleted. There is a forum to be used for constructive suggestions, and General is not it.
Also, moderators should be in place to keep discussion on-topic for each forum. Intelligently-written threads on fixing game mechanics should be moved from General to Suggestions. Class discussion should be moved to the class forums.
Most importantly though, I feel that the Blizzard forums could use more useful discussion from the developers and CM's. These days, we're lucky to get any good info from "The Blues". I think that if more moderation was put in place, and the company actually came to the forums once in awhile to discuss issues with the players, a shift in the overall posting environment would take place.
I think it's a bit sad that even Tigole has followed the more intelligent players here, rather than having the company clean up their own forums.
At this point, it's a lost cause. Just as with AV and the LFG system, once people have an idea or impression about a system, it's very difficult to change. Most of the users of the official forum view them as a place for anonymity, trolling, and socializing - sweeping changes at this point would be met with a lot of resistance from the cultural inertia of the forumgoers, if the term applies. EJ works because the expectations were in place from the beginning.
Why would you entrust the very people who are making the official forums such an awful place with voting for what constitutes a "quality" thread?
Honestly, I don't think Blizz cares much about the forums. Given the "forums software update" which pretty much consisted of replacing the graphics with prettier ones, I wouldn't hold my breath for any actual improvement in functionality.
I was going to write a long diatribe about what constitutes "relevant" discussion, who gets to decide, how that affects customer service, how it affects the company and its employees as a whole, and why hot dogs come in packages of 10 while hot dog buns come in packages of 8.
But I think the first statement, albeit slightly out of context (since Blizzard is a private company and not a government entity), generally holds true. The fact of the matter is that there will and should always be a medium for people to express themselves with only the smallest degree of control. It might suck sometimes, but as the very existent of this forum proves, you can always just ignore it and go elsewhere.
PS - Pavol, your avatar makes me tingle in my happy places.
I personally don't think liberal use of banning on the forums would achieve anything, because the forum is a part of your paid service (though I'm not sure if it's implied or expressed stated). EJ forums, OTOH, are where people go to seek information from people who are more experienced with the game, and are generally more well versed in the mechanics of the game.
I don't think that's actually the case. I remember reading a few times in Blue posts that the forums aren't specifically part of the paid service; that they're an additional free service provided by Blizzard for players of WoW, and that access to them is expressly at Blizzard's discretion depending upon one's following of the forum rules.
Honestly, I think the official boards serve a purpose. Mostly that purpose is that whenever a significant issue arises (be it C'thun bugging out, consumables, etc.) the tidal wave of posts will eventually be called to somebody important's attention. Not that it's the best or most effective way to do so, but at least it works.
As far as moderation, half the fun for people on that board is posting dumb things. That's pretty difficult to moderate.
Why waste perfectly good money fixing something that doesn't make a damned bit of difference to their business either way? Its not like people quit the game over the state of the forums, or sign up for the game because the forums are a great place to go.
There's always free cheese in the mouse traps, but the mice there ain't happy.
The WoW forums would require far too much work and effort to moderate completely. The only way it would even be remotely possible is to employ a broad range of forum moderators who do nothing but delete / move / lock posts and to limit the number of posts an account can use before being locked out for the day. There's simply too much rampant trolling and idiocy, just take a look at the pace the WoW General forums moves at - you can literally hit the refresh key every 10 seconds and 5-6 threads would already be pushed back by a page. As Sin mentioned in his previous post, Sony did away with their official forums for well over 3 years due to problems quite similar to what Blizzard is currently facing with their own forums, except the problem is far worse due to WoW's immense fanbase.
To be completely honest, I personally think that Blizzard would be doing humanity a favor by shutting down the official WoW forums forever, as well as saving a good chunk of dough from not having to maintain it (god knows how much bandwidth those forums eat through per day). Many players seeking intelligent and mature discussion has more or less abandoned their forums at this point (many of which who have migrated to these forums due to the excellent forum moderation and community), which only compounds the problem.
Last edited by Exertim : 05/23/07 at 9:04 PM.
Reason: typo
The german forum is at least slightly moderated. The admins delete insults and namecalling, albeit not reliably. They also try to close redundant threads, but that is an effort of biblical proportions.
I think moderating the forums is very bad return on investment. People don't pay to use the forum, they play the game. The community managers would be put to better use as bot hunters. And since the consumables thread I am convinced that the developers read *this* forum instead of their own.
ps: And this forum is overmoderated, but I won't say it, cause I'm afraid of Kaubel... *shadowmeld*
I'd rather they spend all their people hours and money on fixing bugs in the game and creating new stuff rather than a cent or a minute on the forums. Official forums, really who cares?
The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.
The problem with enforcing the rules on the WoW forum is that the rules themselves are completely arbitrary. Paladins and Shaman have been posting less than polite comments cross forums for the vast majority of the games existance. Last month Shaman did the same thing on the Warlock forums and it became a ban worthy offense. So the moderators claim this is an outstanding rule. Fine, benifit of the doubt and all that. Only problem is next day the Shaman forums are being inundated by the standard rogue, warrior, palladin nerf posts and no banning. Any unequal application of rules to a consumers detrement ends up going bad for a company.
There's a few forums I'd be really upset if they shut down. Their technical support forum, while may be a bit redundant at times, has helped me actually get the game working after a few major patching errors, the customer service forum, while not completely void of trolls, can be faster / more reliable than paging GMs under certain circumstances, and questions can be asked there that GMs shouldn't have to answer. On top of that, all times other than "patch week" the UI forums are simply amazing. Shutting those 3 down would have a direct decrease in my enjoyment of this game.
This is correct. The EQ communities (Ranger's Glade, Safehouse, etc.) were excellent forums.
I played 2 months of Vanguard. Vanguard had no official forums. The fanbase was spread out over a few sites, all having the same threads over and over. The lack of moderation encouraged unhappy players to complain louder and louder. People who did not play (nor pay) anymore could still post on the fansite forums. And they did. It got really ugly. Even when the game was broken in so many ways, there were still fun things to do in game. But the forums were so depressing it influenced your gaming experience.
After that, I don't think the official WoW forums are that bad anymore. Yes, the general forum is full of pvp-ers who want other classes nerfed. But the other forums are not that bad.
If they would close down the official WoW forums, would you like the majority of players come over to the EJ forums, and post here ?
I don't think that's actually the case. I remember reading a few times in Blue posts that the forums aren't specifically part of the paid service; that they're an additional free service provided by Blizzard for players of WoW, and that access to them is expressly at Blizzard's discretion depending upon one's following of the forum rules.
Correct. The reason for the forums is for them to be able to get free feedback for their game on a site they control, rather than having to find, become familiar with, and watch multiple fan forums. Your subscription pays for the game, but the forum isn't.
The german forum is at least slightly moderated. The admins delete insults and namecalling, albeit not reliably. They also try to close redundant threads, but that is an effort of biblical proportions.
I think moderating the forums is very bad return on investment. People don't pay to use the forum, they play the game. The community managers would be put to better use as bot hunters. And since the consumables thread I am convinced that the developers read *this* forum instead of their own.
ps: And this forum is overmoderated, but I won't say it, cause I'm afraid of Kaubel... *shadowmeld*
I beg to disagree on certain points:
Yes, the german board is moderated. But moderation purely depends on the report function which some folks seem to use pretty liberately. This is pretty evident in some realm boards where a more knowledgeable moderator would act completely differently. Its a drop in the ocean, nothing more. I have and I still moderate some boards of completely different sizes. Large boards get very very difficult to manage unless you have almost unlimited resources. Which is where I agree with you: the return on investment for an effective level of moderation would be obscenely bad.
Yet I think Blizz does it the right way. While 90 % of the posters might not have a real clue, newbees do get some information, even if they aren't 100 % accurate. For most players who aren't the kind of minmaxers that frequent EJs this is sufficient to play.
Best suggestion I've heard is to make a Veteran forum that only allows lvl 70 avatars to post, and is also heavily moderated. It'd be a small sanctuary in the hell that is Blizz' forums, but at least it'd be there.
The problem is that in able to have a well moderated forum which has constructive posts and rules which are followed, you have to have a moderating team willing to abide by those rules themselves.
Unfortunately a great deal of the official forum CM's have the posting qualities of a hyperactive rodent on LSD. Not going to happen.
They would have to get a new team and it would involve getting rid of a lot of the current CM's, as I find a lot of the time you cannot teach people to coherently speak on the internet.
Honestly, I don't think Blizz cares much about the forums. Given the "forums software update" which pretty much consisted of replacing the graphics with prettier ones, I wouldn't hold my breath for any actual improvement in functionality.
There were more improvements than just graphics, the search function was improved (although not much) and the moderators got more tools than before.
However, the update didn't change much and I think the WoW forums should remain as their are. You have to have an active account to post there and many people still use it, so you could say it is successful.
Official forums serve many purposes, only one of which is information exchange. I think the Vanguard example is a very good one, since Smed talked about the need and the reasoning behind setting up official forums, something that Sigil intentionally avoided.
Improving the signal to noise ratio on official forums only affects one part of why people would post there.
05/23/07, 7:14 PM
in EJBSG 17 (soundtrack)
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