The WWS Thread - Page 101

manly · 07/17/07, 4:24 PM

Originally Posted by Sathik

As for Teron, yeah maybe it aint perfect fight to compare, since Arcane Blast when gets pushback basically resets its cast time, while fire spells have 70% to be uninterrupted, that makes a great difference also.
Still, I'd like to see some parses where unpotted fire mages are doing ~1200dps on Teron.
Also, we never use innervates for mages, or if it happens, its more in a way of a joke, like on some SSC fights etc. Mana is really no issue, as long as you have decent gear and a shadow priest + pots. Also, if you'r paladins are capable of keeping JoW up, you can basically forget about your mana bar.

Sure thing. Just keep in mind I never wanted to get into the fire vs arcane debate in the first place, but I like when numbers aren't overly exagerated. Keep in mind that you can't get those numbers without doing stopcasting as fire, and that sometimes the pushback times badly with your stopcasting. Results vary depending on how much you're willing to gamble it for the most part.

Here is a parse of teron, a bit dated because I sadly did not have COE this week (in addition to early sacrifice regardless)
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Stion - 1353 dps, oil + food (maybe 1xflamecap too -- those won't show up in logs)

Wow Web Stats
I was unpotted, no oil on that one.

• Vykromond · 07/17/07, 4:28 PM

Originally Posted by tedv

Er I meant to say you should always mangle if mangle is down and shred if it's up. Adding both of those.

The way you put this in is actually still a little off, sorry. If you have 35-45 energy a 5-point Ferocious Bite is a better idea. It's at higher energy totals that you should keep Shredding.

Illuminate · 07/17/07, 4:31 PM

Originally Posted by manly

Here is a parse of teron, a bit dated because I sadly did not have COE this week (in addition to early sacrifice regardless)
Loading...
Stion - 1353 dps, oil + food (maybe 1xflamecap too -- those won't show up in logs)

Jesus, 3371 average fireball hit is just disgusting

Sathik · 07/17/07, 4:43 PM

Manly: yeah, according to those parses the dmg is comparable, altho the fight is quite favourising fire mages due to the pushbacks.
Still, fire cant give you the control over your dps, which you can have when being arcane
Mostly it will still depend on mages playstyle, and we could argue for hours, well, whatever who likes

tedv · 07/17/07, 4:51 PM

Originally Posted by Sathik

Manly: yeah, according to those parses the dmg is comparable, altho the fight is quite favourising fire mages due to the pushbacks.
Still, fire cant give you the control over your dps, which you can have when being arcane
Mostly it will still depend on mages playstyle, and we could argue for hours, well, whatever who likes

I don't think fire versus arcane is an opinion thing that people debate. In the end, all that matters is your total damage done on the kill attempt. Either fire will deal more or arcane will. The data seems to say that fire still wins 80% of the fights, even when you have access to the T5 set bonus for arcane. All mages like the same thing: dealing lots of damage.

manly · 07/17/07, 4:51 PM

Originally Posted by Sathik

Manly: yeah, according to those parses the dmg is comparable, altho the fight is quite favourising fire mages due to the pushbacks.
Still, fire cant give you the control over your dps, which you can have when being arcane
Mostly it will still depend on mages playstyle, and we could argue for hours, well, whatever who likes

Well, see, here is the thing. We can argue that the fight favors fire over arcane. It doesn't really matter in the end. What irks me is when I see bland statements like "Deep Arcane beats it by far, its just a thing that you cannot compare." you can be sure I will be quick to point out its a far wide-reaching over generalisation, to be polite. Like any build, it has highs and lows. I would prefer that in the spirit of fairness numbers like 2000 dps be abolished in a corner since we all know it does not represent what is to be expected out of arcane on a regular basis. I welcome any claims that arcane can do good damage, but unless there is an actual proof being shown I would prefer not to see anything on the matter. It just isn't informative in the end.

Originally Posted by tedv

I don't think fire versus arcane is an opinion thing that people debate. In the end, all that matters is your total damage done on the kill attempt. Either fire will deal more or arcane will. The data seems to say that fire still wins 80% of the fights, even when you have access to the T5 set bonus for arcane. All mages like the same thing: dealing lots of damage.

I like to think its pretty much equal in the end. If only we would get more than WWS parses of mages receiving 2 innervates per fights maybe I could come to a conclusion. I know what to expect out of fire. I have a good idea what to expect out of arcane. There is no debate whether arcane can beat fire dps (with 2pc t5); it surely can. But don't expect a huge difference in the damage barring some ridiculous stacking like a very short fight, or innervates, or double shadow priest (and quite possibly JOW up). I think in the end its a matter of personal preference. I have listed many times my complains about arcane spec in the mage forums, most of them are not dps related, but rather, that non-dpsing tasks stops you from completing your cast cycle. Arcane build was built* to maintain and sustain its cast cycle. As I said, some people take it as a challenge to work around it, some other people, like me, rather view it as being counter-productive to the build.

As I said, I think it's a matter of personal preference.

Myrx · 07/17/07, 4:56 PM

WWS History
11 logs in there now. Hope some of this information helps. All different bosses.

EDIT: Looks like I need to fix Rage and Anetheron. They appear corrupted.

• Shifft · 07/17/07, 5:00 PM

Originally Posted by Myrx

WWS History
11 logs in there now. Hope some of this information helps. All different bosses.

EDIT: Looks like I need to fix Rage and Anetheron. They appear corrupted.

I don't know what it is but there's something weird about your Naj'entus log. Your rogues are only doing something like 830-850 DPS when that's an incredibly melee-friendly fight in that you can just stand in and DPS the entire time. Enlighten me if there's something different about your strategy but our rogues generally do 1200+ DPS on that fight, and I know for a fact that you guys are great players.

Illuminate · 07/17/07, 5:53 PM

Originally Posted by Shifft

I don't know what it is but there's something weird about your Naj'entus log. Your rogues are only doing something like 830-850 DPS when that's an incredibly melee-friendly fight in that you can just stand in and DPS the entire time. Enlighten me if there's something different about your strategy but our rogues generally do 1200+ DPS on that fight, and I know for a fact that you guys are great players.

Lack of an enhancement shaman and windfury totems kind of hurts

Playered · 07/17/07, 7:21 PM

Sorry to pull off another request but anyone know of any WWS of Teza in Curse? the potential of a mutilate spec working is interesting but theres none that I could find being any good.

DeeNogger · 07/17/07, 9:22 PM

Originally Posted by kaib

And @specs, I really hoped that the misconception of Blackout = PvP / Spirit Tap = PvE finally got extinct. The ONLY use for Spirit Tap is for solo farming. Maybe in some very weird boss fights, but generally a spriest hits the boss and not adds. Hitting adds is terribly inefficient mana wise and without full stacks of shadow weaving, the dps is not there as well.
Blackout helps a lot with mass trash pulls, stuns always help and trash is after all a big part of raiding.
And then there's the occasional encounter where it's gold, kael'thas weapon phase for example. And it helps a lot in various other fights, examples would be when hitting the priests at Solarian, killing your demon at Leotheras, killing nagas at Lurker and of course doing the trash waves in Hyjal.

Mobs that are stunnable are few and far between. But regardless, 5/5 spirit tap and 5/5 blackout are pretty shitty, which ever you prefer. I guess for the 'bad spec' I should have had points in both :p

Spades · 07/17/07, 9:51 PM

Originally Posted by Illuminate

Lack of an enhancement shaman and windfury totems kind of hurts

Yeah, but not 400 DPS worth of hurt. Sounds like a log error to me.

Elendril · 07/17/07, 9:51 PM

Originally Posted by DeeNogger

Mobs that are stunnable are few and far between. But regardless, 5/5 spirit tap and 5/5 blackout are pretty shitty, which ever you prefer. I guess for the 'bad spec' I should have had points in both :p

There's tons of stunnable mobs in raid zones nowadays.

cheebamonkey · 07/17/07, 10:58 PM

Originally Posted by Elendril

There's tons of stunnable mobs in raid zones nowadays.

There are certain fights where both one will come in handy, like for us we use spirit tap specced SP on the elementals for lady vashj. I do it with a flask of mighty restoration on and never come close to running out of mana, the damage speaks for itself.

Wow Web Stats

Note the damage done to elementals

Enchanted Elemental - WWS

Also note that the deaths in the fight aren't registered correctly since i didn't have deaths range set to 200 yards. All the other data is accurate though.

Caerdwynn · 07/17/07, 11:52 PM

Pardon me. I'm new to these forums and have not read this entire thread. I am, however, looking for some help and am apparently too lazy to spend an hour searching through the replies here.

I'm looking specifically for a WWS from a guilds' first or one of its first kills on Magtheridon. Our guild has just progressed to this point, and I would love to have something to compare our current numbers with. Most of what I've been able to find here comes from guilds who's progression far exceeds ours, and it's not overly helpful to get an idea of where we stand compared to them.

Thanks for the help.

For any curious, here's the last 20 of our guild's raids. They include full Kz clears, Void Reaver kills, and Gruul kills.

Wow Web Stats