The WWS Thread - Page 101

Phalloidin · 09/06/07, 11:59 AM

This is my guild's first 25 man run, at gruul's:

WWS 1st gruul

We know our DPS is not good enough (and yes, we have a lvl 69 shaman and 2-3 members newly 70 with crap for hit rating >.<)- would be so appreciative if I could get some feedback and recommendations for the other DPSers. And also myself- I'm always looking to improve.

Nekrataal · 09/06/07, 1:26 PM

Originally Posted by Kronos

First thing that pops out of my head, is why did the shaman put down flametongue, he should always use windfury.
Looks like Obafemi is spec'd for partial pvp maces or something as you said. I'm sure he'd do better, even with maces, if he spec'd out of Master of Deception. He should also shoot for more hit rating, 219 is pretty low.

Agonie had terrible dps time, his hit is low, he just needs to cast more I'd guess. I don't know much about warlocks though.

The shaman is healing, i guess he just tried to help out adding a little dmg. Agonie, yes i´ve seen that, looks like she just decided to avoid the orbs entirely...
As for the hitrating, don´t know to much about melee equip, but is there so much more in the early raid instances to help raising that? We cleared SSC, TK is 3/4.

But is my concern that our raid dps is not good right or do i just expect to much when comparing these wws's with other guild's parses?

Sealclubber · 09/06/07, 1:35 PM

Originally Posted by Phalloidin

This is my guild's first 25 man run, at gruul's:

WWS 1st gruul

We know our DPS is not good enough (and yes, we have a lvl 69 shaman and 2-3 members newly 70 with crap for hit rating >.<)- would be so appreciative if I could get some feedback and recommendations for the other DPSers. And also myself- I'm always looking to improve.

Glanced over your mages, Shadowlady, Mageforever and Halcyon should all spec 10/48/3. Halcyon needs to start using his profession and replace some of his greens with spellstrike and maybe spellfire, Eyrin could benefit from some more HP and needs to enchant his gear. Also unless I'm reading it wrong they could all stand to improve their DPS uptime.

Kronos · 09/06/07, 1:41 PM

Originally Posted by Nekrataal

The shaman is healing, i guess he just tried to help out adding a little dmg. Agonie, yes i´ve seen that, looks like she just decided to avoid the orbs entirely...
As for the hitrating, don´t know to much about melee equip, but is there so much more in the early raid instances to help raising that? We cleared SSC, TK is 3/4.

But is my concern that our raid dps is not good right or do i just expect to much when comparing these wws's with other guild's parses?

Our healing shaman almost always throws down windfury as well. Flametongue is just a terrible totem for the most part.

Yes your rogues should easily be able to get to the hit cap. Although they should look into getting some heroic gear as well. Some of their gear is good, other pieces not so much. Did your rogues skip Karazhan?

snape · 09/06/07, 1:57 PM

Originally Posted by Sealclubber

Glanced over your mages, Shadowlady, Mageforever and Halcyon should all spec 10/48/3. Halcyon needs to start using his profession and replace some of his greens with spellstrike and maybe spellfire, Eyrin could benefit from some more HP and needs to enchant his gear. Also unless I'm reading it wrong they could all stand to improve their DPS uptime.

You're reading it slightly wrong. Fire specs will always have natural higher DPS uptime because of the Fireball DoT and Ignite. Halcyon and Mageforever have lower DPS time because they are Frost - no DoTs in the spec.

To add comments about your Mages - considering their miss (resist) rates for their main nukes, it seems some of them have absolutely 0 hit rating. One shows 26.6% misses for Scorch, the others range from 18% miss on Fireball to 8.2% miss on Frostbolt (still atrocious). Get them to invest in hit gear for bosses (and also for trash, you still need 6-7% for that too, and I doubt they even have that much).

Proxy · 09/06/07, 2:05 PM

Originally Posted by Phalloidin

This is my guild's first 25 man run, at gruul's:

We know our DPS is not good enough (...) I'm always looking to improve.

Your casters all seem pvp specced and your spriests aren't stacked with mages in groups. Have the mages go fire and put them with the spriests. I think the spriests should be able to get 750dps done as do the locks. Do they dare going full out on dps? Also, 6k+ on first tries is not bad at all. At 7k+, Gruul is very doable.

Austin · 09/06/07, 2:21 PM

Originally Posted by Nekrataal

The shaman is healing, i guess he just tried to help out adding a little dmg. Agonie, yes i´ve seen that, looks like she just decided to avoid the orbs entirely...
As for the hitrating, don´t know to much about melee equip, but is there so much more in the early raid instances to help raising that? We cleared SSC, TK is 3/4.

But is my concern that our raid dps is not good right or do i just expect to much when comparing these wws's with other guild's parses?

Nekrataal, I'm posting a few parses from our guild on Void Reaver...we're considerably behind you in terms of progression, our first Hydross kill was 07/23, our first Morogrim kill was 08/31, we progress a tad slow but methodically. Either your DPS is low, or our DPS is high.

We have a good amount of people that raid with us, so a combination of rotation and real life commitments change our raid makeup on a weekly basis. 2 days a week raiding 25 person raids, we moved to 3 days a week as of 2 weeks ago.

Your link that I'm comparing against is Wow Web Stats

Our top 3 link to Void Reaver:
08/23, raid DPS 11,775 - 6min, 50 sec Wow Web Stats
07/30, raid DPS 11,517 - 6min, 49 sec Wow Web Stats
08/06, raid DPS 11,505 - 6 min, 51 sec Wow Web Stats

Cos- · 09/06/07, 2:22 PM

Originally Posted by Austin

Here is the WWS report for our first Morogrim report, it looks pretty solid to me, but I'd like your opinions. Be aware that the mage Milonious hadn't been to this encounter before, and it was his first time there. Teso and Thalizar swap specs ~3-6 times a week, so if you look at them...yeah, you really can't tell too much, they're Ret at heart, but we need the healing more often then not. Thalizar was a Prot/Holy Hybrid spec for tanking the Murlocs, shouldn't need that spec again.

For the Murlocs we had Thalizar tanking them behind Morogrim, which turned out to be an utter headache, we moved the tank down to the water while maintaining Morogrim at the hallway to Karathress and downed him in 2 attempts, after ~10 wipes due to various aggro/healing issues with the Murloc tank. We had Mythos(guild MT) helping on the Murlocs with Demo shout and using his Thunderfury, as well as Vandil using Demo shout and making sure that we don't have any runners.

The fight was right in the neighborhood of 10 minutes, and it seems to be very repeatable with us tanking the Murlocs at the Watery Grace Area.

Here is the link:
Wow Web Stats

Thank you for your time in advance.

Somatra got lazy and never used Adrenaline Rush (?!) as well as only 3 bladeflurry and Leiji really needs to stop depending on eviscerate for his damage finisher with mutilate. Rupture rupture rupture. His average evis was 1k, the average unbuffed damage for 1700 ap 5 cp rupture is ~1400 or so. Throw in buffs, mangle etc, evis probably cost him upwards of 30k that fight. Not a huge deal but it would at least put him up in line with your other 2 rogues.

Lenala · 09/06/07, 7:08 PM

Originally Posted by Lenala

(Cribbed from the R&D forums)

VR Down:
Wow Web Stats

VR /Headdesking for 4 attempts:
Wow Web Stats

Lurker wipe @4%, fish respawned in water during attempt QQ:
Wow Web Stats

Lurker Downed:
Wow Web Stats

Lurker Downed again, plus first Hydross attempts:
Wow Web Stats

Looking for specific critiques of individuals be it spec, gear, or actions during raids. Although armory checks for gear should be taken with a grain of salt since a lot of people log in their solo/farm/heroic stuff.

Our raids are inconsistent at times, one week 2 shotting VR and other times /headdesking for 6+ attempts only to hurry out of TK due to trash respawns. Would appreciate more experienced raiders at the T5/T6 level taking a look and perhaps revealing a few things we may have missed.

Shameless bump.

shnookum · 09/07/07, 1:21 AM

So we're pushing 2 months of attempts on vashj and I'm out of ideas at this point. If anyone is willing to make some suggestions it'd be greatly appreciated.

7 healers.
6 sections of elemental killers, 1 dps in each, 4 healers on them.
2 tanks (can't really do anything about this)
5 melee, or 4 + shaman depending on who shows up.
Rest all ranged dps on strider with a warlock kiting.

I'm fairly certain a lot of our dps could be doing better... but couldn't say how.

Wow Web Stats

Thanks in advance.

DeeNogger · 09/07/07, 2:58 AM

Originally Posted by shnookum

So we're pushing 2 months of attempts on vashj and I'm out of ideas at this point. If anyone is willing to make some suggestions it'd be greatly appreciated.

7 healers.
6 sections of elemental killers, 1 dps in each, 4 healers on them.
2 tanks (can't really do anything about this)
5 melee, or 4 + shaman depending on who shows up.
Rest all ranged dps on strider with a warlock kiting.

I'm fairly certain a lot of our dps could be doing better... but couldn't say how.

Wow Web Stats

Thanks in advance.

We just got our first kill tonight, and here are some things that helped us a lot.

We used 4 sections of elemental killing, with 1 dps and 1 healer per section. Ideally hunters and affliction locks, but SPs can do it also (but they need a lot of mana consumables, and whatever mana help they can get). We then assign 4 other dps, who are primarily on strider dps to each section. These 4 dps (ideally mages) move to the top of the stairs when the tainted is about to spawn. If a tainted spawns in their section, they fly down (blink) and nuke the crap out of it. The mage and the dpser on full time in that section then work the core up to the generator. This 'helper' dps can also help mop up elementals when the strider is dead.

Elemental shamans are the best kiters that we have used, far superior to Affliction Locks. Their able to safely keep the strider slowed without outside help, and their threat is more than enough (make sure your kiter clicks off the salvation blessing at the start of phase 2!) Further, it doesn't take a respec to get the optimal kiting spec, as is the case for Affliction locks (pick up CoEx).

put raid icons on your elemental killers on the stairs. Instead of yelling out 'Tainted at the North' you can simply say a color, which everyone on the platform, regardless of LoS, can see. This helps greatly when trying to work out communication: the simplest communication is the best.

We have all our melee dps (3x rogues, 1x Enhancement Shaman, 1x Dps Warrior) on top burning nagas. They can churn through them so fast that they usually have a few seconds between spawns to help put firers out, weather it be loose elementals or help work on the Strider (the dps warrior pops deathwish and just beats on it).

In the end its a dps fight. At a certain point you can have flawless execution, but if you cant keep up with the adds in phase 2, or go too slow in phase 3, you're never going to kill her.

Zedd · 09/07/07, 3:40 AM

Our guild had a bit of lineup problems the last 2 weeks, but we seem to be back on track.
I am happy to see our raid dps improve, but outside advice is allways welcome

Logs of Wensday(I linked the tidewalker log, because it is a decent fight to test dps)
Wow Web Stats

Logs of yesterday(First kill of Al'ar):
Wow Web Stats

If the wwslog dont have the armory function on their own this is our guild:
The Armory

Thank you

kaib · 09/07/07, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by Zedd

Our guild had a bit of lineup problems the last 2 weeks, but we seem to be back on track.
I am happy to see our raid dps improve, but outside advice is allways welcome

Logs of Wensday(I linked the tidewalker log, because it is a decent fight to test dps)
Wow Web Stats

Logs of yesterday(First kill of Al'ar):
Wow Web Stats

If the wwslog dont have the armory function on their own this is our guild:
The Armory

Thank you

Well, for Morogrim, two of your mages did not use Frost Novas first of all. That's fairly bad as they break fast due to the dmg, the more, the merrier.
Then take a quick look at Arcane Explosion dmg:
Wow Web Stats

Being afraid to die from aoe aggro does not help anyone in this fight. Once the aoe starts, everyone has to go all out and whoever takes aggro, moves away.
Also, if you raid with that many mages, you really want a 2nd shadow priest. Chilou did not have one and had to wand for a good amount of the fight. He potted three times, could have been four, but that's fine really. He will run oom without a spriest in an aoe fight, especially with the fire spec.
Oh, and about that fire spec. Does he not have dragon's breath? Armory seems down atm, but he seems to be full fire and not fire/arcane, so he should have it. He really, really should use it during the aoe. Fire mages make this fight so much easier due to breath/blast wave. He hit stuff with blast wave 33 times. I doubt that means he used it ever aoe, should be more hits then. Also, needs to be fixed.

Your spriest is doing a very good job. Again, due to armory being down, I can't check his gear, but sustaining 1000ish dps over an 8 min fight is pretty good for the gear level I suspect he's got (karaz + crafted + heroic/badge mainly). Cloning him would certainly help your fire/arcane mages a lot.

Your enh shaman should stop using flame shock. It is more damage then ES but taking the debuff slot is no option really. Also a dps warrior would help things. Preferrably arms for the physical dmg debuff. Battle Shout is also a huge buff for the enh shaman/rogue/rogue/feral druid group.

Your hunters are both not using scorpids. I suppose it's too late to start with that now, but they are losing a lot of dps. Also afaik raid dps pets are gore based pets, not claw. Cats = pvp, ravager or wind serpent = raid dps. That's how I understand it from reading hunter threads at least.

For the healing, Killi really needs to use PoM more. See it as the chain heal of the priest. At moro especially if you put it on the tank when a wave/murloc spawn is possible, you are guaranteed two ticks, possibly more if the 3rd guy takes murloc dmg. It does not get much better then that mana/hp healed-wise.
Also both priests should use their first sfiend 1:30m-ish into the fight, which allows them to use it twice. And then Inner Focus. I really hope both of them have that specced. If not, respec. And if they do have it, why did none of them use it over the whole raid in that WWS?
In our WWS it shows up under buffs/gain at least. If they specced for it, start using it. If they did not spec for it, that's imho very, very wrong. There is no valid reason to skip that talent.

Mindbreaker and Ariel both need to make Lifebloom their most used spell instead of Regrowth. Or do they use the balance/resto regrowth spec? Does not look like that to me and if they do, it is probably a good idea to go back to tree form. Lifebloom rocks.

Your paladins like Flash of Light WAAY too much. It is a raid healing spell, not a tank healing one. And that's what they were doing (redx and kikk). For tank healing they should use a mid rank and max rank holy light. Heals for 2k when tanks have 15-18k hp and spikes are in the 7-10k area just don't cut it. It's ok for one guy to spam fol to keep the tank topped and the priest/paladin casting a higher rank slow heal and aborting if there were no big hits, but two spamming FoL is just inefficient. Redx actaully used 0 HL the whole moro kill.

Nothing to say about your shamis really, they did pretty well. Although it seems you use two guys to tank the murlocs (pala and shami). Having just one with a backup in case of a tomb would be better. That means that one tank can have ES permanently, this way the paladin had no ES, which really helps both with healing against small hits and for additional healing aggro.

tedv · 09/07/07, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by kaib

Also both priests should use their first sfiend 1:30m-ish into the fight, which allows them to use it twice. And then Inner Focus.

Just a nitpick, but I usually use the first fiend 2 minutes in, so it gets the benefit of the Silver Crescent activation. I believe this is another 800 mana or so. Also, on Morogrim it's much harder to dump mana to the point that a shadow fiend is worth at 2 minutes it because Shadow Word: Death is a very dangerous spell to cast. You'll still have a fiend ready at the 7 minute mark, which will be enough to survive the rest of the fight.

Dranak · 09/07/07, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by kaib

Your hunters are both not using scorpids. I suppose it's too late to start with that now, but they are losing a lot of dps. Also afaik raid dps pets are gore based pets, not claw. Cats = pvp, ravager or wind serpent = raid dps. That's how I understand it from reading hunter threads at least.

Actually since the hotfix that nerfed wind serpents, they're not great for raid DPS. And cats and ravagers are essentially equal, with the difference between them being around 5 DPS.

Nurru · 09/07/07, 2:11 PM

Originally Posted by tedv

Just a nitpick, but I usually use the first fiend 2 minutes in, so it gets the benefit of the Silver Crescent activation. I believe this is another 800 mana or so. Also, on Morogrim it's much harder to dump mana to the point that a shadow fiend is worth at 2 minutes it because Shadow Word: Death is a very dangerous spell to cast. You'll still have a fiend ready at the 7 minute mark, which will be enough to survive the rest of the fight.

How? All the damage the ranged take in this fight is on a timer with the exception of watery grave selection. Even in the event of grave a decent healer on grave duty can top someone up if they're too low. I've kept VE up on Morogrim and had absolutely no problem maintaining a full MB/SWD cycle aside from mana getting slim near the very end of the fight.

tedv · 09/07/07, 2:34 PM

Originally Posted by Nurru

How? All the damage the ranged take in this fight is on a timer with the exception of watery grave selection. Even in the event of grave a decent healer on grave duty can top someone up if they're too low. I've kept VE up on Morogrim and had absolutely no problem maintaining a full MB/SWD cycle aside from mana getting slim near the very end of the fight.

For whatever reason, I never got a lot of heals on that fight, and died numerous times to being at 5000 health and getting graved, then not healed in the grave. I'm not sure if the issue was healing setup, a fear of getting healing aggro from the murlocs, a lack of healers, or plain old lack of skill. But my survival rate increased when I cut death from my rotation. You mileage may vary, I suppose.

nataku · 09/07/07, 2:43 PM

Originally Posted by tedv

For whatever reason, I never got a lot of heals on that fight, and died numerous times to being at 5000 health and getting graved, then not healed in the grave. I'm not sure if the issue was healing setup, a fear of getting healing aggro from the murlocs, a lack of healers, or plain old lack of skill. But my survival rate increased when I cut death from my rotation. You mileage may vary, I suppose.

I use VE and MB/SW

on Morogrim, but I cut nukes from my spell casting whenever the cooldown for earthquake is over so that I don't risk any burst VE healing that renders Fade ineffective. After Earthquake happens, I just Flay/refresh DoTs until I see Murlocs (which are usually targetting me), at which point I hit Fade so that they run past me to the Paladin healing the raid up for aggro, then proceed to Mind Blast and dps again to help top off group.

kaib · 09/07/07, 2:43 PM

I would not use sdw death either, it's not worth it. The fight is no serious dps race. Multiple people with dmg on them being ported is not worth the risk.
If right after a wave everyone is healed up and there is 0 raid dmg, it is a very low chance that something goes wrong. But still, I don't feel it's worth it if you end up dieing only once in 100 attempts/kills. The extra dps is just not needed in this fight.

Nurru · 09/07/07, 2:49 PM

To each his own I suppose. I've never had a problem going full dps the entire time on Morogrim and in the worst case I just faded when I had murloc aggro (Omen calls it out long before they reach you). Saying the fight isn't a dps race is silly though, for a fight that long even shaving off 30-60 seconds can be enormous.

DeeNogger · 09/07/07, 5:27 PM

Originally Posted by Nurru

To each his own I suppose. I've never had a problem going full dps the entire time on Morogrim and in the worst case I just faded when I had murloc aggro (Omen calls it out long before they reach you). Saying the fight isn't a dps race is silly though, for a fight that long even shaving off 30-60 seconds can be enormous.

Shaving off 30-60s is enormous. But to imply that using shadow word death would equal 30-60s faster on the kill is ridiculous. Further, its much better to have the paladin gain healing aggro first, than to have a SP grab it, fade, and hope that it goes to the paladin.

Nurru · 09/07/07, 5:54 PM

I'm not saying one priest using SW

makes a 30-60s difference, but if you have 3-4 not using it every cooldown over a 7+ minute fight that's a lot of damage. You could also argue that using death gives more targets for the paladins to heal to build threat. In all the Tidewalker kills I've been a part of I've never had to worry about threat beyond just fading if I get murloc aggro well before they reach the platform. Arguing it is obviously silly, so just do whatever you can manage to do within your raid. But that being said you should be striving to get in whatever extra damage you can within the limits of your raid.

Austin · 09/07/07, 5:56 PM

Originally Posted by Cos-

Somatra got lazy and never used Adrenaline Rush (?!) as well as only 3 bladeflurry and Leiji really needs to stop depending on eviscerate for his damage finisher with mutilate. Rupture rupture rupture. His average evis was 1k, the average unbuffed damage for 1700 ap 5 cp rupture is ~1400 or so. Throw in buffs, mangle etc, evis probably cost him upwards of 30k that fight. Not a huge deal but it would at least put him up in line with your other 2 rogues.

Thanks Cos,

Somatra admitted that he didn't use Adrenaline Rush...he simply forgot, kinda rare for him to do that. The Blade Flurry could be used more, I think that there is some hesitation since they rogues were grabbing adds in our earlier attempts with BF, so I'll see if they can add it in more tonight.

Leiji - I think that he wasn't using Rupture because we've been running too high on debuff slots, but where the Mages and Warlocks are working on the Murlocs and don't have 100% uptime on their DoTs the Rogues shouldn't have a problem with Rupture, we've discussed it and he'll have it up tonight.

DeeNogger · 09/07/07, 5:58 PM

Originally Posted by Nurru

Arguing it is obviously silly, so just do whatever you can manage to do within your raid. But that being said you should be striving to get in whatever extra damage you can within the limits of your raid.

I retract my argument because this is possibly the best comment regarding in-raid dps. I think I might make it my signature on my guild's forums.

You are a gentlemen and a scholar, good sir.

Nekrataal · 09/08/07, 9:26 AM

Originally Posted by Austin

Nekrataal, I'm posting a few parses from our guild on Void Reaver...we're considerably behind you in terms of progression, our first Hydross kill was 07/23, our first Morogrim kill was 08/31, we progress a tad slow but methodically. Either your DPS is low, or our DPS is high.

We have a good amount of people that raid with us, so a combination of rotation and real life commitments change our raid makeup on a weekly basis. 2 days a week raiding 25 person raids, we moved to 3 days a week as of 2 weeks ago.

Your link that I'm comparing against is Wow Web Stats

Our top 3 link to Void Reaver:
08/23, raid DPS 11,775 - 6min, 50 sec Wow Web Stats
07/30, raid DPS 11,517 - 6min, 49 sec Wow Web Stats
08/06, raid DPS 11,505 - 6 min, 51 sec Wow Web Stats

Thanks, as i see there is actually room for improvement. I try to convince everybody that +hit is the superior stat in pve up to the cap since the beginning, but actually some people just tend to ignore advices from people not playing their class.