The WWS Thread - Page 124

Jimad · 11/19/07, 10:44 AM

Our first Karathress kill : Loading...

Very curious to see what people think of the casters performance, specifically the warlocks. The huge discrepancy in damage done by melee vs. warlocks has me baffled.

I (Jimad) kept Curse of Shadows up on all 4 mobs as they were focus fired, but it doesn't show on the WWS for some reason. I was flasked (Pure Death), with blackened basilisk and Superior Wizard Oil buffs active for each pull. The other warlock, Pherox, was on Curse of Recklessness duty, but I see he cast 2 Curse of Dooms (1 missed).

Any input about the raids performance (and again, I'd love a couple of deep looks into the warlocks performance) would be greatly appreciated.

tedv · 11/19/07, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by Jimad

Our first Karathress kill : Loading...

Very curious to see what people think of the casters performance, specifically the warlocks. The huge discrepancy in damage done by melee vs. warlocks has me baffled.

Your shadow priest needs a ton of work.

A) DoT uptime was less than 50% of the fight for both Vampiric Touch and Shadow Word: Pain. That's a huge loss in DPS and mana return. With the gear they have access to, they should be around 800 or 900 DPS, not 600. They need to install a DoT timer an refresh the DoTs as soon as they fall off (but not before).

B) The gear shows clear issues with itemization valuation. All the sockets need to use +9 spell damage gems. They have an unholy fascination with set bonuses they need to break, because honestly, the bonuses don't give enough. As a shadoweave tailor, they need to use the Shadoweave shoulders over T4 shoulders. Even the T5 shoulders barely break even with the crafted gear. The T4 priest gloves are a joke. They are worse than the gloves you get from the first boss in Shadow Labyrinth. Your priest should get a pair until Horseman Attument drops his caster gloves.

C) The talent spec needs a lot of love too. It appears to be a PvP oriented shadow priest spec, since it lacks -25% threat and has 20 points in discipline. However, the spec still has 8% hit from talents, which is well more than necessary for PvP and not enough for raiding. The omission of Focused Mind (-15% mana cost to Mind Blast and Flay) is a mystery, since you'd want that in both PvP and PvE. If they want to raid, they need to switch to a 47/14 spec. Rather than reiterate how the points should be spent, just sent them to the shadow priest thread in the class mechanics forum.

DeeNogger · 11/19/07, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by tedv

Your shadow priest needs a ton of work.

A) DoT uptime was less than 50% of the fight for both Vampiric Touch and Shadow Word: Pain. That's a huge loss in DPS and mana return. With the gear they have access to, they should be around 800 or 900 DPS, not 600. They need to install a DoT timer an refresh the DoTs as soon as they fall off (but not before).

B) The gear shows clear issues with itemization valuation. All the sockets need to use +9 spell damage gems. They have an unholy fascination with set bonuses they need to break, because honestly, the bonuses don't give enough. As a shadoweave tailor, they need to use the Shadoweave shoulders over T4 shoulders. Even the T5 shoulders barely break even with the crafted gear. The T4 priest gloves are a joke. They are worse than the gloves you get from the first boss in Shadow Labyrinth. Your priest should get a pair until Horseman Attument drops his caster gloves.

C) The talent spec needs a lot of love too. It appears to be a PvP oriented shadow priest spec, since it lacks -25% threat and has 20 points in discipline. However, the spec still has 8% hit from talents, which is well more than necessary for PvP and not enough for raiding. The omission of Focused Mind (-15% mana cost to Mind Blast and Flay) is a mystery, since you'd want that in both PvP and PvE. If they want to raid, they need to switch to a 47/14 spec. Rather than reiterate how the points should be spent, just sent them to the shadow priest thread in the class mechanics forum.

I concur with the above with the slight tweak of getting a 14/47 spec :p

Snorri · 11/19/07, 5:33 PM

This past weekend was our guilds first kill of Lurker, and here is the WWS report: Wow Web Stats. (It shows up as try #2 as he bugged and dived when we had him at 1% with plenty of people stilll up) What I have been wondering is it normal to take 21 minutes to kill this guy? I just can't imagine that this is an OK kill when it takes so long. It seems to me considering the gear level of our raiders that we should be putting out much higher numbers. Also do we seem to be stacking too many healers for this fight?

Jimad · 11/19/07, 5:59 PM

Thanks tedv and DeeNogger, for your input about our shadow priest. I'll certainly try and *discretely* pass it along to him. Hopefully he can take your assessment as an opportunity to learn and improve.

I'm also still hoping to get some feedback about the warlocks performance in the Fathom Lord fight. Loading... Anything that might help us raise our game would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

promdates · 11/19/07, 6:34 PM

Originally Posted by Snorri

... What I have been wondering is it normal to take 21 minutes to kill this guy? I just can't imagine that this is an OK kill when it takes so long. It seems to me considering the gear level of our raiders that we should be putting out much higher numbers. Also do we seem to be stacking too many healers for this fight?

I know on our first guild kill, we did The Lurker Below in 15 minutes, 45 seconds. You've got 8 healers, since the fight isn't a dps race, so it's a rather decent number to bring for learning to make sure people stay alive, and how well your healers are geared/trusted. We brought 7 healers, and had one die rather early in the fight.

I'm not sure if you're doing the "Kill all the adds before he comes up" strat, or the "Keep an add on each island sheeped" strat. We've been using the sheep strat, and it's working flawlessly for us, yet this does put a bit more stress on our mages to keep them crowd controlled the entire time.

Here's a link to our first lurker kill October 10th Lurker Kill, and here's a link to our most recent kill November 18th Lurker Kill. We've been taking a lot of ranged on this fight so we can just burn him down without fear of aggro from anyone.

Dancing Wu Li Master · 11/19/07, 10:04 PM

Our second Morogrim kill.
I've linked this because it's recent, clean, and there was pretty decent group synergy. Our mages and warlocks remain out of Grave range the entire fight, which explains their positions on the meter (and inflated DPS). The Karathress kill later in the evening was our first ever, and I was still experimenting with groups and assignments.

Any comments or suggestsions would appreciated.

Vessyra · 11/20/07, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by Snorri

This past weekend was our guilds first kill of Lurker, and here is the WWS report: Wow Web Stats.

Your Mages:
Twistman - knows what he's doing. His Spell Hit isn't quite maxed, but he's pretty close. He needs to reenchant his cloak with Subtlety instead of Spell Pen, and a couple of minor gem fixes (upgrade to blue ges,, and focus on spell damage and spell hit til the cap). He does seem to be scorching way too much though. He cast 1 scorch for every 2 fireballs. He should be able to get at least 5-6 fireballs in (max of 8) before needing to rescorch to keep the debuff up. He was 1 of 3 fire mages with improved scorch. Between the three of them, they should be able to keep a rotation of keeping scorch up on lurker easily and only need to reapply after he dives. Perhaps he simply needs a timer that shows how long before the debuff expires.

Photek - Really needs to get his Spell Hit closer to the cap, although he appears to be wearing a lot of PvP gear in his armory. But he missed over 6% of all his fireballs. He also wasn't helping the other two mages keep the improved scorch debuff up. He needs to finish his Tailoring and get his Spellfire set. It'll be much better than what he's wearing.
He needs to work on his reputation, his exalted with Scryer for the enchant, pick up the Scryer Bloodgem trinket, and do heroics for an Icon of the Silver Crescent.

Oberus - Similar to Photek. Needs to work on his spell hit, mostly in PvP gear. Needs to regem/reenchant a bunch of his gear, and finish off tailoring. He's also using pyroblast, which he really shouldn't be using.

All of your mages should be casting more. 88 fireballs in 21 minutes is not even close to enough. Make sure they're still DPSing while in the water. Have Photek help the other 2 mages keep scorch up. It looks like your mages were running out of mana, which means a shadow priest or shaman would be nice, but it shouldn't be necessary for fire mages and it looks like it was more due to the fight going on for so long.

Your warlocks also seem to need a lot of help (especially with the not dying) but keeping Dots up and their DPS uptimes are pretty poor. But I'm not a lock expert, so someone else would be much better to comment on that.

Valean · 11/20/07, 11:45 AM

Four bosses in BT

This is just the report for me, from last night. When analyzing my performance, I see that my DPS, while acceptable, still lacks in comparison to the other casters, specifically the Warlocks and Mages. I know part of this is that my gear not up to par with most of the other casters, but I also cant help but think that i'm failing in some other aspect.

For the entire night, my miss % came up to 4.3%, and add that into a mitigated % of 6.6%, roughly 10% of my fireballs were not doing their full damage. On boss fights i run at about 150-160 +hit, on trash its about 130. I'm working on upgrading my gear, but it's been slow going so far. i stick with the usual spell rotation of 5 x scorch (im the only fire mage) and then fireball spam while keeping scorch up every 30 seconds or so.

Can anyone offer any advice? Is there something i'm missing. I hate feeling like i'm not holding my own weight.

Docjowles · 11/20/07, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by Snorri

This past weekend was our guilds first kill of Lurker, and here is the WWS report: Wow Web Stats. (It shows up as try #2 as he bugged and dived when we had him at 1% with plenty of people stilll up) What I have been wondering is it normal to take 21 minutes to kill this guy? I just can't imagine that this is an OK kill when it takes so long. It seems to me considering the gear level of our raiders that we should be putting out much higher numbers. Also do we seem to be stacking too many healers for this fight?

That is definitely...on the long side. My guild is pretty average for the server (4/6 SSC, 1/4 TK) and our Lurker kills have been trending down from about 15 minutes early on to 10 minutes. We generally bring 6 healers to Lurker, and I could see how having 8 would lead to a significantly slower kill.

As far as general tips, make sure no one dies to spout or whirl (I hope this is obvious). Losing a few DPSers early on makes for a long, long fight. Also, your casters can generally keep DPSing while they're under water. Sometimes you wind up in a bad spot where you can't get LOS, but normally I can happily pop Fire Ward and just sit in the water nuking for the duration of his spout.

Arzhakon · 11/20/07, 1:09 PM

Originally Posted by Snorri

This past weekend was our guilds first kill of Lurker, and here is the WWS report: Wow Web Stats. (It shows up as try #2 as he bugged and dived when we had him at 1% with plenty of people stilll up) What I have been wondering is it normal to take 21 minutes to kill this guy? I just can't imagine that this is an OK kill when it takes so long. It seems to me considering the gear level of our raiders that we should be putting out much higher numbers. Also do we seem to be stacking too many healers for this fight?

Originally Posted by Vessyra

Your warlocks also seem to need a lot of help (especially with the not dying) but keeping Dots up and their DPS uptimes are pretty poor. But I'm not a lock expert, so someone else would be much better to comment on that.

Two warlocks died from the adds (Rubbernuts: 04:23, Coilfang Ambusher and Hayek 04:25 Coilfang Guardian). This of course could have been an accident, but warlocks should normally not have too much problems handling the adds. Putting the warlocks together on a platform with maybe a hunter should provide enough crowd control. About the individual warlocks:

Hayek: While a destro build looks really good because of the big numbers which often pop up in your screen, having only 8.48% hit bonus will result in a 10% miss chance and a low dps output. At the moment Hayek places too much emphasis on crit, while that stat is not the most important yet. My advice would be to respec affliction until he has maxed out +hit (202 rating).

Furthermore, he seems to alternate Incinerate and Shadow Bolt. At the moment Incinerate only ends up higher because of improved scorch and the lack of shadow priests. I strongly recommend bringing at least one shadow priest for any encounter. In general, shadow bolt is more beneficial because of the better scaling with damage and because of improved shadow bolt.

Myself: Myself only did 22 shadow bolts, compared to Rubbernuts who did 48, while both were alive for about 4:15 - 4:15 minutes and while both have a similar spec. There is room for a lot of improvement here. Another advice would be to pick up 3/3 Malediction, as it is one of the stronger talents in the Affliction tree for raiding - especially if you bring a shadow priest or two.

Rubbernuts: While the number of shadow bolts cast seems better, he could do a better job with keeping up dots. The number of UA ticks is substantially less than the Corruption ticks. In a good rotation, these numbers should be similar. Immolate can be up more often. I doubt there are any issues with the debuff limit yet. Syphon Life is not used at all, which seems to be a waste.

Snorri · 11/20/07, 2:29 PM

Great responses so far guys, we will be passing this information on to the class leaders.

cheebamonkey · 11/20/07, 3:39 PM

Originally Posted by Snorri

Great responses so far guys, we will be passing this information on to the class leaders.

Your kill is rather long. I think our first kill was around 11 minutes or so, maybe upwards to 13 minutes. Some of the things I noticed about your fight was you didn't sheep any of the Gaurdians and instead used all your sheeps on the ambushers. Your hunters also didn't use Ice traps at all which would free up a lot of dps to work on the adds. Given that setup with 4 hunters and 3 mages I would suggest having a mage sheep one of the melee adds, have a pally designated to hammer of justice it so it doesn't own anyone before sheep, have the other two mages sheep 1 add per platform and have a hunter try one add on the last platform. Hell you could even have all your hunters use traps and only have 1 ranged and 2 melee up at a time and really cut down on your healing. This whole bit will let you free up one tank and bring another dps which will help shorten the fight and should make phase 2 more comfortable with only 7 or 6 healers which will also make it take less time.

From a strait dps standpoint your dps is a bit low even considering your gear. It may be useful to stress to your raiders that faster kills mean less consumables used especially for casters. Also you may want to point out that just because an item has a gem socket bonus doesn't mean you need to get it. There are a lot of your raiders rocking 6stam socket bonuses at the cost of doing more damage and not getting the bonus.

Continuing on, tell your shaman to heroism. Your fight took 21 minutes meaning you could have gotten 3 heroism in in that time. Since you have your shaman with the casters there is no risk to pulling aggo so have them pop heroism about 10 seconds into the fight and have you casters go balls out. It'll come up again, just make sure you use it during phase 1 and not on the adds.

Lastly, since I need to go soon, rethink where you are placing your hunters. BM can provide a huge buff to the group they are in via feroicious inspiration and placing one in a caster group or a melee group can be a huge dps increase and there is no reason to give your healers it.

Oh and get a shadow priest, your casters will love you for it and with a shadow priest keeping VE up you can have a full group of casters stay in the water for all of phase 1 which will also increase your dps by a lot.

Castnicke · 11/20/07, 8:22 PM

Originally Posted by Valean

Four bosses in BT

This is just the report for me, from last night. When analyzing my performance, I see that my DPS, while acceptable, still lacks in comparison to the other casters, specifically the Warlocks and Mages. I know part of this is that my gear not up to par with most of the other casters, but I also cant help but think that i'm failing in some other aspect.

For the entire night, my miss % came up to 4.3%, and add that into a mitigated % of 6.6%, roughly 10% of my fireballs were not doing their full damage. On boss fights i run at about 150-160 +hit, on trash its about 130. I'm working on upgrading my gear, but it's been slow going so far. i stick with the usual spell rotation of 5 x scorch (im the only fire mage) and then fireball spam while keeping scorch up every 30 seconds or so.

Can anyone offer any advice? Is there something i'm missing. I hate feeling like i'm not holding my own weight.

I took a quick look on the Najentus kill, and as fas as I can see, your warlocks aren't doing Curse of Elements. This might be the cause of your low dps compared to the warlocks. You had three warlocks, two of them were doing Curse of Doom and one was doing Curse of Shadows. I believe that the raid dps would increase more if they were using all three curses (Shadows, Elements and Recklessness).

cheebamonkey · 11/20/07, 9:24 PM

Originally Posted by Castnicke

I took a quick look on the Najentus kill, and as fas as I can see, your warlocks aren't doing Curse of Elements. This might be the cause of your low dps compared to the warlocks. You had three warlocks, two of them were doing Curse of Doom and one was doing Curse of Shadows. I believe that the raid dps would increase more if they were using all three curses (Shadows, Elements and Recklessness).

Not having CoE is hurting you however since you are the only person in the raid who would benefit from it, having the extra CoD is the better choice for overall raid dps.

hellenkeller · 11/22/07, 2:28 AM

attention all MS dps warriors (and people guilded with very skilled ones). I just hit 1534 DPS on Teron Gorefiend (melee friendly boss). Does anyone have links to parses of an MS warrior doing more dps on Teron? I would like to study it.

Wow Web Stats

Thanks for any help you can provide

Fafhrd · 11/22/07, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by Jimad

Our first Karathress kill : Loading...

Very curious to see what people think of the casters performance, specifically the warlocks. The huge discrepancy in damage done by melee vs. warlocks has me baffled.

I (Jimad) kept Curse of Shadows up on all 4 mobs as they were focus fired, but it doesn't show on the WWS for some reason. I was flasked (Pure Death), with blackened basilisk and Superior Wizard Oil buffs active for each pull. The other warlock, Pherox, was on Curse of Recklessness duty, but I see he cast 2 Curse of Dooms (1 missed).

Any input about the raids performance (and again, I'd love a couple of deep looks into the warlocks performance) would be greatly appreciated.

A cursory glance at your combatlog shows that you only did damage to one target at a time. On this boss you have 2 (or 3 if you count the pet) targets to dot up. I used to throw a trinkted CoD on Karathress at the pull also. Also you could use a point in Suppression.

Graul · 11/22/07, 3:22 PM

Could someone explain the way WWS reads a "miss"? I have +14.35% to hit and yet I'm still seeing plenty of "misses" on specials, even though dodge and parry also seem to be accounted for seperately. I'm sure this has already been answered somewhere in this thread, but I didn't want to read 124 pages to find it.

Graul - WWS

Cos- · 11/22/07, 7:10 PM

Originally Posted by Graul

Could someone explain the way WWS reads a "miss"? I have +14.35% to hit and yet I'm still seeing plenty of "misses" on specials, even though dodge and parry also seem to be accounted for seperately. I'm sure this has already been answered somewhere in this thread, but I didn't want to read 124 pages to find it.

Graul - WWS

Look through the log and apply the filter for misses. Your only missed specials occured on trash. Banshees have a -hugehit% curse. Tell your mages and druids to stop slacking and you should miss less.

Graul · 11/22/07, 7:37 PM

So I guess where I am getting confused is the "all miss" portion. Is this simply showing the miss % for said attack through all fights, just to compare it to the current fight parse?

Cos- · 11/22/07, 7:44 PM

Originally Posted by Graul

So I guess where I am getting confused is the "all miss" portion. Is this simply showing the miss % for said attack through all fights, just to compare it to the current fight parse?

All miss = parry+ dodge+miss+block+resist. Click on the line for detail on that attack. I used the "browse log" feature to look at only your misses for the entire parse. You can also look at each boss/attempt/trash as its own section. Your actual misses concide neatly with the existence of banshees etc.

Saraya · 11/22/07, 10:43 PM

Last week's SSC run: Wow Web Stats
Any sort of advice for any of the DPS(in general) and healers(especially on morogrim) would be appreciated.

Ignore the underperforming priest, his connection can't handle 25 man raids.
(My low DPS on Morogrim was due to getting swapped out of a shadow priest group and then having to battle rez someone, so try to ignore that too :B)

Cos- · 11/22/07, 11:50 PM

Originally Posted by Saraya

Last week's SSC run: Wow Web Stats
Any sort of advice for any of the DPS(in general) and healers(especially on morogrim) would be appreciated.

Ignore the underperforming priest, his connection can't handle 25 man raids.
(My low DPS on Morogrim was due to getting swapped out of a shadow priest group and then having to battle rez someone, so try to ignore that too :B)

Ask Stoomie to take feint off his bars- Stoomie (rogue) had to feint 18 times and came in 200 dps behind Bryntind who never feinted once. Stoomie used eviscerate and had some weird issues with his cycle. He put in barely 10k finisher damage and Bryntind managed 30k.

DeeNogger · 11/23/07, 12:10 AM

Originally Posted by Cos-

Ask Stoomie to take feint off his bars- Stoomie (rogue) had to feint 18 times and came in 200 dps behind Bryntind who never feinted once. Stoomie used eviscerate and had some weird issues with his cycle. He put in barely 10k finisher damage and Bryntind managed 30k.

I think better advice would be to download a threat meter (perferably omen, but whichever one your MT is useing is necissary) and only feint when needed. Dont waste energy on uneeded feints, but on the same hand, dont over aggro and get splattered when feint is just sitting there, asking to be used.

Xerophyte · 11/23/07, 1:15 AM

Originally Posted by Saraya

Last week's SSC run: Wow Web Stats
Any sort of advice for any of the DPS(in general) and healers(especially on morogrim) would be appreciated.

Ignore the underperforming priest, his connection can't handle 25 man raids.
(My low DPS on Morogrim was due to getting swapped out of a shadow priest group and then having to battle rez someone, so try to ignore that too :B)

Pakse (tank) is a bit low on health. She could and should gain 1500-2000 or so at very little cost by gemming and enchanting more strongly for stamina and preferably also adding a darkmoon stamina trinket. At the very least, gemming for block rating bonuses and enchanting a shield with block value are Bad Ideas™.

Noctusmirus (tree) is, well, a bit of a mess. I grant that Morogrim isn't the perfect treefight in many ways, but he's still got issues to deal with. He tends to Regrowth-spam, which is generally an inefficient way of spending mana, he at best keeps up a 3-stack of LB on a single tank but often lets it fall off for no discernable reason and generally seems to focus far too much on reacting to damage rather than pre-empting it. Mainly he needs to learn to juggle Lifebloom correctly and on multiple people: keep a trinketed 3-stack up constantly on any and all tanks in range as absolute top priority, add Rejuv to tanks only after that and spread other heals around only if needed and you still have global cooldown to spare after covering tanks with those hots. Direct him to the Raiding as a Tree post, it covers most bits.

Far as I can tell most Moro wipes were due to healers getting eaten by murlocs before your prot paladin picked them up. Make sure that said protadin has someone to heal after Earthquake - a designated warlock works great thanks to Fel Armour and Lifetap ensuring that the heal is big (granted, we usually have a 41/20 holydin doing this, your mileage may vary) - and that the other healers don't panic, keep the heals controlled until the paladin has built up threat and play carefully on the raid. I'm also a bit worried by the number of watery graves Varien has taken: 7, including one on the kill. He should typically be out of range of that if you're standing right and the MT still lives. If he's not out of range then the fight will tend to become a bit of a crapshot if you rely heavily on the murlocs being controlled by aggro rather than freeze effects and the like.