Kazanir

Okay, I'll bite.

Our most recent (post-patch) Gruul kill: http://wow.virakar.com/stats/wws-20070523-1845/

And tonight's 1% Hydross wipe using AOE: http://wow.virakar.com/stats/wws-20070527-2003/

Basically our DPS sucks for a lot of reasons and I don't know what they are. Two mages in the Hydross meter (Serv and Carea) were Frost for some reason that I can't fathom, but beyond this I'm explanationless. I can only come up with 4 reasons that DPS can suck:

a) People make horrible gear choices
b) People make horrible spec choices
c) People don't know what buttons to push when
d) People don't push said buttons fast enough

How does one fix this kind of guild-wide problem?

'War' is too small a word for what I'm fighting. Like a candle in front of the whole burning Sun. I told you. This is bigger than a war. Now, I am not going to die today. I have other projects, and other options.

You can come with me. I can protect you.

 

Sebudai

How long was the fight? The listed duration on that WWS is like 13 minutes.

 

Kazanir

That log segment actually starts when we pulled the elemental assembly line a little early before the Frost tank's invis pot timer (lol) was up. If you check out Hydross himself you'll see that he's only present for 10 minutes, he enraged at 1% after most of the raid was dead due to a transitional fuckup earlier (nature tank got tombed and the frost tank didn't stop moving, boo.) Sorry for the confusion.

'War' is too small a word for what I'm fighting. Like a candle in front of the whole burning Sun. I told you. This is bigger than a war. Now, I am not going to die today. I have other projects, and other options.

You can come with me. I can protect you.

 

Sebudai

Were you guys using any consumables? We don't use the AE strategy, so it's kinda hard to compare, but this was our post-patch kill: http://www.juggernautguild.com/wws/2...100/index.html

Your rogues can definitely do a little better, aswell as the fury warrior and enhancement shaman. It doesn't look like your rogues have as many Backstabs as they should, compared to our kill.

I'm still looking through the other classes in your log and their armory profiles.

 

Lavode

Kazanir: on grull You are running very melee heavy indeed with a warrior offtank, and two ferals dpsing. Odds are good that most of your melee is threatcapped as hell and that is what is limiting your dps. (if not, awsome warrior) Make one of the ferals tank hurtful?

Grull kill, after we figured out that when you bring all the melee in the universe, positioning needs to be reworked (5 wipes to throws ending up with 10 man piles... then changed positions, got a kill.)

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...&s=10314,10708

we really, really need shamans. And yhea, having words with the warlocks about the advantages of mana pots /lifetap and an imp/succubus sac.

 

Kazanir

The only melee who reports being threat-capped on Gruul ever is Heeroyui. He is one of the only ones who (along with Zyrexana, the warlock) can consistently break 800-900 DPS on things, and apparently the nerf since the patch has hurt him significantly. I think that if our melee was putting out 900 DPS consistently that we might switch to a beartank then for threat reasons but it hasn't been necessary yet.

Edit: Thanks for all the advice btw. I'm on the warpath with this now because we should have killed him halfway through the night, and a new bosskill on the first night of pulls is always a nice boost to morale. Instead we had this crap and the failure of leadership to teach people to DPS well is glaringly obvious. I'm not sure how to go about lighting a fire under people to learn to play but this thread seemed like a good start.

'War' is too small a word for what I'm fighting. Like a candle in front of the whole burning Sun. I told you. This is bigger than a war. Now, I am not going to die today. I have other projects, and other options.

You can come with me. I can protect you.

 

Equalizer

So looking at EJ's WWS. It looks like my guild needs more/better shamans. And should talk to our mages about possibly respec'ing into that fire build that both their top two mages are using.

Seeing the DPS and time it took to kill Gruul is nuts.

 

Amarilia

Have your mages spec deep fire. Our mages are always on top on hydross having around 1k dps easily. We are nuking the adds seperately though so your mages could do even more. 700 dps as a frostmage on hydross is pretty good so imagine the dps with a superior spec.

 

Northerner

Sure, some very old stuff if people like to look at it:
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=6vslyhabumoh1
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=rae5pg5pv1liq
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=4pqqjz46gizfk

No picking on us please... it's a growing guild yet. =)

 

Boevis

The first thing I notice is that the shadow priest is utterly terrible, despite having t4 gear, he doesn't even have +800 shadow, his spec is not ideal, and he really seems to have held back a lot or just been asleep (Had VT up only 3 out of the 5 minutes ..) Do you guys use KTM?

You may want to link other people's armory's. A priest in my guild for instance that does 800 dps every Gruul has over 1100 shadow damage (though I think he's using some weird pvp spec right now): http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#c...nger&n=Cinched Just seeing what other people can easily get by changing professions and picking different rewards can give a good idea of what you can do.

 

Jeru

Looking at these DPS numbers makes me wonder how WWS actually calculates "damage per second".

Does it start calculating dps the second you are put into combat, and stop when everyone is out of combat, or does it only calculate dps time when you actually do damage, pausing the counter when you stop dps (during shatters)

The reason I'm asking this is because the posted numbers seem artificially inflated compared to what I was seeing on my (synced) damage meters. The mages in the first post have 1000+dps, and their main source of damage is fireballs, avg, hit just short of 3000. 3 second cast -> 1000 dps. So to get 1000 dps over the fight they have to chaincast fireballs with no interruption whatsoever, but there's cave-ins, shatters, and whatnot, so it looks like WWS is pausing their dps count during these phases.

Why is it pausing there? Just to get more impressive dps numbers or does it have a practical use?

 

◊ Cadfael

Every "damaging" action a player does starts a 5 second window. If nothing else follows within those 5 seconds, you lose DPS time. If you are a DoT class, you should basically be in DPS time during the full fight, unless you die early.

Probably every damage meter out there does calculate DPS wrt DPS-time differently. I've noted that SWStats group DPS (which for me is displayed in a FuBar addon) does match amazingly well with WWS total raid DPS number, however the individual DPS numbers of players do not.

 

panny

From the old Sustained DPS thread:

One thing we noticed about post-patch 2.1 Gruul is that "guardian type" pets such as the Fire Elemental and Felsteel boar do perform shatter damage, whereas they previously do not. I'd recommend not using any of the summoned pets without pet bars (Shadowfiend now has a pet bar so is probably safe?).

 

Kazanir

We do use KTM. How does one get WWS to link to people's Armory profiles? On the latest parses I always have our guild name and server entered but I don't see any Armory links popping up on the Hydross parse.

'War' is too small a word for what I'm fighting. Like a candle in front of the whole burning Sun. I told you. This is bigger than a war. Now, I am not going to die today. I have other projects, and other options.

You can come with me. I can protect you.

 

◊ manly

Well, if you check the many WWS posted here, you will notice that it seems like there is 2 kind of parses : the ones with dps around 700-800dps, and the ones with 900-1000dps. If you want top DPS, your players must have a PVE spec, and that is pretty much the only way to get high numbers past group stacking. I know as far as EJ goes, every raiding mage is 10/48/3. If the fight is mana intensive for dps (typically this means aoe and/or long fight), then yes, its pretty obvious you put a shadow priest in the dps group and you will see probably upwards of 20%+ dmg from the classes in the group having the shadow priest. If you give an elemental shaman to a mage, the mage dps will rise *extremely significantly*, probably 125 dps, if not more (I am pulling numbers out of nowhere in case you ask, but I do know its fairly noticeable). If you wonder why your raid takes x more minutes to kill a boss, its probably because the other group has less healers and more dps. Group stacking has always been a matter of 'how few healers can we manage to bring' for as long as I can remember. If you can do the fight wiith less healers, rdps will (should?) go up.

The numbers are correct. A properly geared mage can definately push that dps. I know we even did a gruul kill with 2 elemental shaman in the mage group -- mages were over 1100 dps. Needless to say double bloodlust helped a lot. But to get back on topic, cave-ins are easily dealt-with using blink, or walking away as you fireblast. When you get tossed by shatter, you can fireblast mid-air. The rest of the time, I know I can get 2700-2800 average non crit fireballs on a target with no pots, given full debuffs on target and a shaman in my group. Now keep in mind I can max my hit% and still get 34% crit, so 1000dps is far from unattainable, given the cast interruptions.

 

Dakous

At the risk of being terrible, if I could ask this rule be broken once or twice - I would like to compare against one or two other "we've recently killed Gruul" guild's later half of Karazhan (Nightbane especially) mega-log - the hosted option now has an auto-split. Preferrably with group makeups that are relatively synergous.

If not, terribly sorry. Just thought it would be useful to me. I know there are plenty of caveats and Gruul is a better "Patchwerk-esq" sample, eccet.

Edit: I suppose I should play too: http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=en2wn1r563dww - That's almost an entire Karazhan clear (we had gone in earlier in the week for an attempted "Nightbane-attunement-only run", but the split function is in there. Let me preemptively defend the "anonymous" feral who died at the start of one of the attempts and could be anyone! - some sneaky paladin said, "Hey, want salv?" right as Nightbane was about to land...

Everybody is your brother until the rent comes due.

 

◊ Praetorian

That's fine. I just want to avoid what I've seen in the past where people post an unseparated log of Maulgar, Lair Brutes, and 3 Gruul wipes and say "hey guys this is my WWS what should we work on??"

Also, re: the DPS question above:

WWS DPS numbers are the average DPS done while actually DPSing. It's not just damage divided by length of fight. It's DPS while DPSing -- the other relevant figure is seen at the top of a player's personal stats page, and covers "DPS Presence," which is how often they were doing damage. Low presence is something people can clearly work on improving, and often makes the difference between mediocre damage and top-notch damage.

 

• Arawethion

If you look back at my WWS link from page 1, there are some logs from late Karazhan fights one week. It was a month ago, so the level of progression is roughly what you describe.

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

Akhtal

We should clear Kara tomorrow or Wednesday and we are exactly the type of guild you are looking for (see my earlier post, #15 I believe) I'll make sure to post it up after...

On a site note, can anyone of you DPS-cracks check up my WWS? We have a few good people and a few bad, but all of them are looking for advices to get better... I'll happily transmit information on my own boards if anyone takes the time to help us...

edit : typo

 

• Karakas

This might be a bit off topic for this thread, so move/delete as necessary, but I've tried taking parses with /combatlog and WWS but it seems like each time my parse is missing a significant amount of the fight. I believe that I have my settings done correctly for increasing my combatlog range. Here are the lines from my config.wtf file:

Are there any commonly used mods out there that directly modify/filter your combatlog so that certain names/actions are filtered out? or mods that overwrite your combatlogrange settings in your config.wtf file? The only mod that I can think of that might affect the combatlog is SWStats.

 

lav

This is the split link to our first kill last week.

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...&s=1832,2573&m

 

Lunaluna

http://raidingrainbow.com/wws/wws-history/

I recently started using WWS to compare our damage to other guilds, so here are a couple of our recent kills.

 

◊ manly

Looking quickly at the gruul kill, specifically at mages,

Niaxato has 13.6% miss rate. This is flat out unacceptable. Theses numbers seem to match closely the armory gear, so I am going to assume that no gear was swapped in for gruul. The first thing this mage needs to change is to try and get 10-13% hit from gear. Replace Seer's Signet by that Cenarion Expedition exalted ring. Change that Mark of Defiance and put Scryer's Bloodgem (preferably neltharion's tear). If that is not available, change Mark of Defiance to Shiffar's Nexus-Horn. The other problem is 83 % of presence. Minimize downtimes. Also, bloodlust would help when < 20%.

Vasmilda has unenchanted gear. And 12int enchant to bracers wont cut it. Otherwise that players seems to have had a fluke on crits, since armory indicates higher crit that what the WWS got. 80% presence needs more work as well. Otherwise I am not too sure what to say, full shadoweave, yet so low dps ? If you have proper tanks, you shouldn't ever hold back on dps on gruul, or even need to invis (there were no invis in the parse, just saying). Frostbolt whenever you can -- not too sure what to add here.

 

Zaq

http://www.tehslax.com/WowWebstats/w...215/index.html
Is our most recent, and unbelievably ugly, Gruul kill. (We had our first Mag win this week for progression level). What worries me most I suppose, is that my gear is hardly impressive, I was CoSing, (Necropotence was probably using CoE), but I still did the most damage over a glacially paced attempt. And even my contribution is pretty laughable in contrast to some of the logs posted.

I'd be very interested in suggestions/observations.

Edit: I think we used two off-tanks since the Hurtfuls were causing some kind of problem or another.

"I have nothing personally invested in my own opinions. I'm just, like, inviting you to join me on the bandwagon of my own uncertainty." -Taylor Mali

 

Mikari

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...&s=4181,4992&m

Our first Magtheridon kill and my first time specced as BM. I'm missing a fair bit of AP due to Prince not dropping a T4 helm for me and I can probably work on getting a bit more AP from other slots too. I was a clicker also.