The WWS Thread - Page 20

panny · 06/10/07, 9:52 AM

Yeah, we had alot of healers because our some of our DPS didn't show up. I think three of our better DPSers couldn't make it. Also our warriors and warlocks are usually within the top places, which hurt us more, since they were tanking/CCing.

Thanks for the tips regarding Infernal management. We had mentioned that other CC should be used on them too, but it appears people got lazy.

I thought perhaps posting a WWS was premature, but I was really stupified as to how to get our lower DPS to improve (especially Stitchtooth, who isn't a regular raider).

P.S. How do you see DoT uptimes?

Osse · 06/10/07, 11:06 AM

DPS time : 5mn (96 % of presence), DPS : 109
(Karathress)

Whats up with your pet Gonk? :P

torke · 06/10/07, 11:33 AM

I decided to jump on the WWS bandwagon here, and as a test had it parse the combat logs of a couple of heroics yesterday. I noticed that there is a column for crushing blows, but it was blank and when searching the combat log for "crush" by hand, I also came up with no matches. This is with a bear tank, so I know that can't be correct. Since the column in WWS is there, I assume that crushes should be properly logged? Any ideas what might be wrong?

♦ Praetorian · 06/10/07, 11:39 AM

72s don't crush, and you won't find 73s in heroics?

Trident · 06/10/07, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by torke

I decided to jump on the WWS bandwagon here, and as a test had it parse the combat logs of a couple of heroics yesterday. I noticed that there is a column for crushing blows, but it was blank and when searching the combat log for "crush" by hand, I also came up with no matches. This is with a bear tank, so I know that can't be correct. Since the column in WWS is there, I assume that crushes should be properly logged? Any ideas what might be wrong?

Edit: Beaten

Cromfel · 06/10/07, 12:59 PM

Todays Magtheridon by tontut

http://cromfel.battlefield.fi/wow/ww....07/index.html

Shabadu · 06/10/07, 1:21 PM

I was wondering if other Enhancement shamans could give me pointers to help maximize my DPS. This was the very first time I'd spec'd enhance for a raid and I think I managed to do pretty respectable by the end of the Vashj kill Gurg posted earlier. My gear is pretty mediocre since I normally fill the second resto shaman slot in our raid, which last night wasn't really nessecary, but I'd be interested to hear other people's strategies.

Luc · 06/10/07, 1:33 PM

Our first lurker below kill tonight. It was a fairly clean kill.

Melee DPS group of Fury-War, MS-War, Retri-Pal, Enhance-Sham, Feral-Druid.
the melee dps got to beat exclusively on Lurker and 3 guardian adds, although our druid had to offtank one of the side platforms in his dps gear for the first part of the submerge.

We are fairly new to having melee shaman and paladins raiding. Looking at the logs, is there anything you would suggest in their skill usage that would raise their DPS some more? Or are they reaching near the cap of where those classes get in their personal DPS at that level of gear.
(Thier buffs are pure gold for us rogues and dps warriors)

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...&s=2041-2711&m

♦ Asgorath · 06/10/07, 2:56 PM

Originally Posted by manly

We use 7 healers because we maintain 17k rdps. I can imagine you need 8 healers with 14k rdps. :/

This really just blows my mind.

Latest attempts on Gruul for us:

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=6i1bxoo1m5kbo

Couple wipes on HKM due to bad pulls (sigh), then 6 of our better attempts on Gruul. Best one for the night was this:

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=6i1bxoo1m5kbo

But as you can see, we'd lost 7 of the DPS by the half-way mark, so it was always going to be rough. Our best ever attempt has been to about 140k HP remaining, but our log didn't have the full range so I'm not going to post it. We can pretty reliably get him to 20% or so, but then one thing or another falls apart and we wipe. I had a particularly bad night that night, eating multiple Hurtful Strikes when our OT stepped too far away from Gruul.

I've been studying our logs after each raid to try and understand what the hell we're doing wrong. Obviously, some people just aren't handling the Shatter very well still, but that's partly because we're having to bring a couple new people in for each raid night. We've been trying to run with as few healers as possible, usually 6 or 7 for Gruul.

Biggest problems, as I see them:

1) Our DPS is pretty lack-luster. The vast majority of our casters are Tailors, yet very few have their full set + Spellstrike, and many have sub-optimal specs.

2) Tank keeps dying for silly reasons, like taking a Crushing Blow during a silence near the end. I was much more vigilant and called out whenever DS, TC, Scorpid etc fell off, so all in all our debuff management was better that night. The Warlocks were complaining about Curses falling off, so the Rogues switched to OH Instant and the Warlocks stopped using Immolate, and I believe we stopped having issues.

Our tank isn't using Heroic Strike at all, meaning he has a lot of glancing blows and isn't generating anywhere near as much threat as he could be -- our regular MT is away for a couple of weeks, that guy is a TPS machine:

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/ch...n=Deadassassin

Looking through the death replay of the MT, it looks like he's just taking too many Crushing Blows. I often see 10+ seconds between Shield Block refreshes, which seems bad to me.

I've been urging our DPSers to actually take real raid specs, and things are slowly improving, but if anyone can give more concrete advice about how we can improve things, I'm all ears.

• vank · 06/10/07, 4:18 PM

Your Hunter, Scotinterest, if I read that correct, had 245 melee swings. That seems pretty glaring right off the bat. He also seems to be shooting with no thought what-so-ever.

♦ Praetorian · 06/10/07, 4:28 PM

Originally Posted by vank

Your Hunter, Scotinterest, if I read that correct, had 245 melee swings. That seems pretty glaring right off the bat. He also seems to be shooting with no thought what-so-ever.

To be fair that was pretty much all on Lair Brutes. Our hunters often melee them after MDing to a tank depending on positioning because it's not worth crossing their charge range in order to be able to shoot them.

Hate Monkey · 06/10/07, 4:42 PM

Originally Posted by manly

Obviously, both of us don't wear that gearset for that fight. I had to put some suboptimal gear to pad up with the fact that I didn't have an elemental shaman in my group this week. This usually is not the case so I never really bothered picking up past 10% spell hit. For reference, I was wearing [Ruby Drape of the Mysticant], [Neltharion's Tear], [Darkmoon Card: Crusade], [Band of Crimson Fury], which puts me at +1027dmg, 14.81% hit (after talents), 32.88% crit. Keep in mind that Darkmoon Card: Crusade will not show it its +dmg in armory, so in practice its higher than those numbers.

I'll be honest here and just say that you're looking at the wrong things...
-Stion has 34.46% crit. (his profile doesn't have molten armor on)
-25k of Stion's dps comes from Static Charge (4% of dps). This is a debuff that hurts you and your teammates.
-Stion had 39% of his fireballs crit, whereas I had 29%. I'll just say that Stion was lucky on crits whereas I wasn't.

I'll also make mention of a few things that cannot be shown in a parse (not easily seen at least). Stion does extensive use of stopcast. I do from time to time, mostly when I'm not distracted. If there is something important I need to keep watch of, I typically won't use stopcasting simply because it puts my attention somewhere that isn't really important in the grand scheme of things. More specifically; on phase 1 I will do stopcast, but you won't see me do it on phase 2 because I need to check constantly my positioning (since spreading out helps healers). I also make sure that I am not in the conical direction of the naga tank/melee. During phase 3, I will do stopcast up until the point where poison clouds start dropping to a somewhat more annoying level, if you ever get that far (which we didn't in that kill). You could say its unacceptable to play without 100% stopcasting. I believe under some fight it is better to put your attention span on things that can affect the others (this is typically the case in fights where positioning is key). I prefer a 'safe' playstyle. This is also why I am using the nexus key. I could be using my karazhan dagger with my badge offhand for that slight dps increase, but in the end, I don't think its worth giving up that many stamina.

That explains a little bit of the difference, but why is your scorch damage so high? Is Stion not helping get the stack up, or not help keeping them up?

Oh, and I'll try and get a parse from our Vashj kill next week just for a comparison reason.

♦ Asgorath · 06/10/07, 4:51 PM

Originally Posted by Praetorian

To be fair that was pretty much all on Lair Brutes. Our hunters often melee them after MDing to a tank depending on positioning because it's not worth crossing their charge range in order to be able to shoot them.

Yeah, I posted the full parse, which will include the trash mobs. The individual boss attempts can be selected from the "Split" drop-down list.

In terms of DPS, nearly everyone needs to improve their DPS time. One of the Mages who survived to the end of attempt 5 had a 62% DPS time, for example. We only have 1 Shadow Priest, but I haven't heard complaints about mana from the casters. Maybe that's not actually the case, and people are having problems with threat and/or mana.

I'm still working my way through each individual's breakdown to see if it's anything more than:

1) Get a better spec.
2) Get better gear (hit rating is pretty poor across the board).
3) Press buttons faster.

Savos · 06/10/07, 4:55 PM

Originally Posted by manly

From that same report: (morogrim kill)
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...1i&s=3708-4130

We use 7 healers because we maintain 17k rdps. I can imagine you need 8 healers with 14k rdps. :/
And yes, shadow priests do make a world of difference. Looking at that page, I can readily tell you that one shadow priest in my group provided me 16,832 mana during the course of the fight.

How on earth does Paches not get crushed more than twice out of 275 attacks on Morgrim for the kill run?

The other ones look to be about 2-3%, but getting below 1% is insane.

Also, the other ones make me not feel so bad as to getting around 2-3% against him.

Lord BEEF · 06/10/07, 5:13 PM

Nearly 100% thunderclap uptime is a part of it I'd imagine, to keep his attack speed slow enough to maintain shield block uptime, combined with his avoidance.

Gurg runs a mod (I don't know the name but I'm sure he'll share) that lets him know whenever clap/demo/curses fall off so he can yell at the appropriate people.

vorda · 06/10/07, 5:14 PM

Originally Posted by manly

From that same report: (morogrim kill)
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...1i&s=3708-4130

We use 7 healers because we maintain 17k rdps. I can imagine you need 8 healers with 14k rdps. :/
And yes, shadow priests do make a world of difference. Looking at that page, I can readily tell you that one shadow priest in my group provided me 16,832 mana during the course of the fight.

Slightly offtopic, but what positioning do you use to make AoE also hit tidewalker? Just let your pala stand with the melees and avoid frost nova? (makes sense I suppose)
Our tidewalker kills usually take 12-13 minutes and have proven very heavy on healer mana, even with 2 shadowpriests groups (where eventually 2-3 healers end up in)

edit: the mod Werebeef is talking about: Raid target debuff tracking (a.k.a. "The pDebuffList Thread") (a real gem, though it could use some customisation options)

Savos · 06/10/07, 5:28 PM

Originally Posted by Lord BEEF

Nearly 100% thunderclap uptime is a part of it I'd imagine, to keep his attack speed slow enough to maintain shield block uptime, combined with his avoidance.

Gurg runs a mod (I don't know the name but I'm sure he'll share) that lets him know whenever clap/demo/curses fall off so he can yell at the appropriate people.

Improved Thunderclap I'd guess?

Still he hits at 1.5 with a 20% Thunderclap and with his absurd level of parry ( http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...5392-5977&a=19 and others) he gains a ton of attack rate from that as well.

This is even using the "bugged" 364 mace skill Mallet of the Tides, yet he still pa(w)rries at 15% or so of total attacks on him.

Lord BEEF · 06/10/07, 5:42 PM

Luck is a factor as well of course. We've had bullshit wipes to morogrim due to a boss parry followed by a crush

edit: jesus you're right about his parry rate

♦ Praetorian · 06/10/07, 5:50 PM

Originally Posted by vorda

Slightly offtopic, but what positioning do you use to make AoE also hit tidewalker? Just let your pala stand with the melees and avoid frost nova? (makes sense I suppose)

Yeah, the paladin stands right behind the melee. There's no need to frost nova, and it's certainly highly discouraged. The first pack arrives ~5 sec before the second, during which time the warlocks can each seed a couple of mobs in the pack. When the second pack arrives, the mages AoE, setting off all the seeds at once, and clearly giving the warlocks aggro. One of the DPS warriors that's right there piercing howls as they reach the paladin, so you have a bunch of snared dying murlocs slowly trying to lumber over to the warlocks and dying to AE long before they get there. Works just fine.

Pachwa · 06/10/07, 6:07 PM

Originally Posted by Savos

How on earth does Paches not get crushed more than twice out of 275 attacks on Morgrim for the kill run?

The other ones look to be about 2-3%, but getting below 1% is insane.

Also, the other ones make me not feel so bad as to getting around 2-3% against him.

Well, I don't know if this contributed to it fully, but this week on Tidewalker I decided to use my trinkets as soon as they came up every time, instead of using them in clutch/emergency situations(Mutliple healers getting caught in water grave while murlocs come etc...) 2 crushes is pretty damn low, not even sure how that worked out myself!

Savos · 06/10/07, 7:12 PM

Crazy amounts of avoidance. Sheesh.

One day Morogrim will die

Gashloog · 06/10/07, 7:22 PM

Gruul Kill

First kill, with some pugs. We're a casual guild that just happens to raid, I'm just looking for some constructive feedback.

Balthezor is MT and Lokiathan is OT (he died around 5%)

Gonkish · 06/10/07, 8:07 PM

Originally Posted by Osse

DPS time : 5mn (96 % of presence), DPS : 109
(Karathress)

Whats up with your pet Gonk? :P

I refuse to spec BM. I don't like the spec, I think it's a giant gimmick, and I think it's just exploiting the broken class mechanics.

Plus, I'm the only Survival hunter, and I figure giving melee a big boost is more important than omgnumbars for myself, in the grand scheme of things. Expose is really nice. I do need to macro KC better, however. Probably going to use it with Arcane.

Osse · 06/10/07, 8:36 PM

Yeah, you're survival I know that. Do you not ask buffs for pet or something? 109 dps sounds a bit low even for survival hunters pet.

Anddacin · 06/10/07, 9:04 PM

Guild's First Gruul Kill:

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...lgqe&s=219-641