The WWS Thread - Page 21

Gonkish · 06/10/07, 9:05 PM

Originally Posted by Osse

Yeah, you're survival I know that. Do you not ask buffs for pet or something? 109 dps sounds a bit low even for survival hunters pet.

I don't think the log caught everything he was doing, or it got filtered or truncated out somehow.

Mountie · 06/10/07, 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by Plankel

Taken from the WWS forums:

This means that imp fireball/ignite will indeed increase your dps time, since every dot that ticks will reset the 5 second timer. Keep in mind that most classes have some form of DoT's though, only one I can think of right who hasn't is frost mages.

WWS also has the average dps, which is simply total damage done/time present, you can find that by pressing the config button

Thanks Plankel, that makes sense with what I was assuming. I guess fire mages generally have their dps under represented in standard wws reports.

Ariose · 06/10/07, 11:52 PM

Our guild's second run at gruul. 8 wipes:

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=d6g2jhbx4acek

We're still learning, but any advice is definitely appreciated. We had problems with our MT dying around growth #8 or so - our current theory is that we're still getting used to stacking hots right before the reverb hits.

Ghando · 06/11/07, 12:07 AM

Originally Posted by Ariose

Our guild's second run at gruul. 8 wipes:

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=d6g2jhbx4acek

We're still learning, but any advice is definitely appreciated. We had problems with our MT dying around growth #8 or so - our current theory is that we're still getting used to stacking hots right before the reverb hits.

See the OP about not including multiple attempts in the same parse.

Karakas · 06/11/07, 12:08 AM

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=egzqetdpuuhes

First Morogrim kill. Any advice is welcome, especially tips on narrowing what I'm calling the "AE gap" (seems like Romules is vastly out-performing other AEers, but I can't pinpoint the reason why). Was a bit messy towards the end, but otherwise clean for 90% of the fight.

♦ Praetorian · 06/11/07, 12:09 AM

Originally Posted by Ghando

See the OP about not including multiple attempts in the same parse.

That no longer applies. Mouse over where it says "Full Report" -- if it's lossendil-hosted, he handles the division for you.

Savos · 06/11/07, 12:11 AM

Almost should use a druid if your tank is getting crushed that many times Ariose.

Tell them to use shield block more for starters.

In your ~2 million damage attempt your tank let shield block fade after 2 attacks but didn't reapply as the cooldown came up and got hit with a 8.7k crush, (Gruul parries between here) then a 4221 normal hit, then a finisher of 7k crushing in and during reverberation.

No tank will survive this.

Aoife · 06/11/07, 1:25 AM

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=ztggrazdenyz3

14 attempts on Magtheridon with the best attempt being a wipe at 66% when one of the clickers didn't get the click cause Mag's fat ass was in the way.

♦ Praetorian · 06/11/07, 2:23 AM

Originally Posted by Gonkish

I don't think the log caught everything he was doing, or it got filtered or truncated out somehow.

No chance.

Here:
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...&fia=66&fiaa=i

RK · 06/11/07, 3:56 AM

Gruul parses:

Kill: http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=zyvgdgftodocu

~8% wipe: http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=5tgml1nhdd6w1

We had a shadow priest for the wipe (which was first attempt of the night), but he'd had to go by the time we got the kill and had been replaced by a holy paladin.

While I'm happy enough that this is repeatable, this was a LOT of grows and there's a lot of room to improve (beyond just improving gear). Advice is much appreciated.

Group setups:

1. MT (warrior), paladin, paladin, resto shaman, warlock using imp
2. Feral druid (OT), rogue, rogue, hunter, resto shaman
3. Mage, mage, mage, warlock, ele shaman
4. 4 priests, warrior (this was originally the shadow priest group)
5. 4 hunters, warrior

Touf · 06/11/07, 4:56 AM

Originally Posted by RK

Group setups:

1. MT (warrior), paladin, paladin, resto shaman, warlock using imp
2. Feral druid (OT), rogue, rogue, hunter, resto shaman
3. Mage, mage, mage, warlock, ele shaman
4. 4 priests, warrior (this was originally the shadow priest group)
5. 4 hunters, warrior

1. MT, druid, paladin, resto shaman, imp warlock
2. Rogue, rogue, warrior, hunter(TSA), resto shaman (No Battle Shout = unhappy rogues)
3. Shadow priest, mage, mage, mage, ele shaman (They need mana)
4. Hunter x 4, warrior. (Battle shout for pets is nice)
5. Paladin, warlock, priest, priest, priest. (Leftovers)

I know you didn't have a shadow priest. What I'm trying to say is get one, they're completely overpowered. The more the merrier.

Dakous · 06/11/07, 5:09 AM

A small question about interpreting logs (and I suppose it's more class related, but...)

Over a given period of time, for the main tank on a typical encounter, shouldn't the number of Gain Shield Block be approximately a count of how many 5 second intervals there are?

Savos · 06/11/07, 5:51 AM

Gaining Shield Block isn't reported if there is still a charge up when you hit it again.

zepi · 06/11/07, 6:06 AM

Originally Posted by Karakas

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=egzqetdpuuhes

First Morogrim kill. Any advice is welcome, especially tips on narrowing what I'm calling the "AE gap" (seems like Romules is vastly out-performing other AEers, but I can't pinpoint the reason why). Was a bit messy towards the end, but otherwise clean for 90% of the fight.

Well, tell Teana to start using Blastwave, and all warlocks to preload seeds. By this I mean that when the last murlocks run to your AE-spot, each warlocks should have preloaded maybe 2 seeds with 3th or so on the way in. Romules does this already, so you can let him teach others.

Other than that, mages should have enough time to shoot a lot of fireballs / scorches between aoe, assuming that they spend their time actively. Ie. you should shoot fireballs while murlocks are running, and while your last fireball is in the air, start flamestriking murlock pack before it actually even hits Morogrim, and when last murlock dies instantly start channeling a Scorch + follow up with fireballs. Ask one mage to shoot scorch as his last spell before aoe, so that scorch stack stays up.

Cannings · 06/11/07, 6:42 AM

Originally Posted by Ariose

Our guild's second run at gruul. 8 wipes:

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=d6g2jhbx4acek

We're still learning, but any advice is definitely appreciated. We had problems with our MT dying around growth #8 or so - our current theory is that we're still getting used to stacking hots right before the reverb hits.

The way to sort out you MT getting gibbed by growths is actually solved by looking at your DPS imo, if you had everyone performing aswell as your top dps'er Gruul would be dead by the 8th grow. What you need to look at on those WWS is who was there for the whole fight so pres %,

Here I see:

Ehrin 100% Spriest on 432dps the problem there is with his lack of DPS he's hindering the benefit he gives to the people in his group, also to do that low dps he must be only SW:P for a lot of it, he needs to work out a better rotation for his spells,

Foofoosheshe 94% 521dps again, very low dps even for a frost mage (who casts a fireball in the fight??) should be pushing 600-700 dps with just top end blues,

and finally Apolcalisse who actually does more shatter dmg to your raid than dmg to the boss or may aswell have with 299dps, is he resto casting lightning bolts? If so either get him to spec elemental or actually heal, if not you really have to ask what he was doing for that fight.

What I personally did was told everyone who was doing sub par dps to speak to the other people in their class that are kicking their ass, ask what rotation, spec, gear they use in order to up their dps.

The only other thing for you to do then is to get rid of the early deaths you lose a hunter and rogue before 20% thats a lot of dps lost that would have got you a lot closer to a kill

Crazypie · 06/11/07, 7:03 AM

I'm sorry if this has been asked already, but a quick search came up with nothing.

Does windfury damage automatically get added into melee damage? Looking over a few early WWS's I'm almost positive it does. And if this is true, is there anyway to see exactly what is windfury damage and what is white damage? It'd be really cool to be able to see the direct improvement windfury brings to a melee group.

Right now with LotP and no windfury, it's quite difficult to keep up with our pve spec'd casters and I'm pretty sure it's because of our enhancement shaman being on vacation (I used to be quite competitive with them).

Here is a WWS of a Morogrim fight. I was on add control so I lost a bit of dps after an earthquakes when i'd chase murlocs down and demo/phowl.

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...5ximo5&s=6-769

There are a lot of random things going on this report that I still want to ask my guildies about. Very low dps time and very low dps from certain classes are somethings that still have to be sorted out.

After looking at Skru's breakdown, I can't really figure out what's making such a difference. My average BT/WW/HS damage are all within 20-30 pts of his, my number of white swings per a minute are nearly identical. My hit rate is a bit lower then his but it shouldn't be the difference between ~660 dps to 920 dps. The only logical explanation I can think of is WF and SoE which do account for the slightly higher damage BT from Skru and the extra heroic strikes which I probably did not have rage for.

zepi · 06/11/07, 7:39 AM

It's not possible to see the direct impact of WF totem, as it's included in "melee" portion of the damage.

It can be calculated from the parse though, give me a minute and I'll figure out the formula for that.

Ugh, one hell of a formula, Let's try this one:

Let Total Nonmodified damage be

TND = ([Total Autoattack damage] - (((455 * (1+0.15*[Improved Weapon Totems talents (max 2)]) / 14 * weapon speed) * ((crit%*2) + (1-glance%-crit%)+(glance%*0.6))) * [# of WF] * Armor Mitigation))

Once you have TND,

[WF total damage] = [Total Autoattack damage] - TND + TND / (number of Normal + Crits + Glanc + Missed) * [# of WF] should tell you the amount of benefit you gained from WF totem compared to no MH enchant at all. You'll need to guess the armor mitigation part. Anything between 20-30% is probably within reason, but I really don't have experience regarding armor of raidmobs. (Rogues need to reduce the excepted value of MH poisons and warriors might need to calculate the extra stuff from sharpening stone.)

TND tries to remove the extra damage gained from AP increase part of WF buff, (TND / (number of Normal + Crits + Glanc + Missed) * [# of WF]) ought to be the damage done by extra attacks.

Now on top of that you'll get a megaton of rage for warrior, which translates into more HS / Cleave... In non-optimal situation it might even allow more BT / WW. For rogues it's an easier calculation, since the benefit from instant poison in MH is quite easy to calculate.

Crazypie · 06/11/07, 9:05 AM

Originally Posted by zepi

It's not possible to see the direct impact of WF totem, as it's included in "melee" portion of the damage.

It can be calculated from the parse though, give me a minute and I'll figure out the formula for that.

Ugh, one hell of a formula, I'll get it eventually... Some day.

That'd be one hell of a formula if you could figure it out. The reason I don't think it's possible to figure out for warriors, is because of the direct impact on rage generation that it causes. A WF crit can be the reason one heroic stikes 10 times or 11 times. Kudoes if you do figure it out

.

Jayde · 06/11/07, 9:26 AM

Originally Posted by Cannings

The way to sort out you MT getting gibbed by growths is actually solved by looking at your DPS imo, if you had everyone performing aswell as your top dps'er Gruul would be dead by the 8th grow. What you need to look at on those WWS is who was there for the whole fight so pres %,

Just a note: I think advising a guild working on getting their first Gruul kill that an 8 grow kill is what they should be shooting for isn't very realistic. Most initial kills are in the 12 grow range, so they should be planning accordingly.

Ariose: if a MT is dying at grow 8, healing is obviously a problem. That should not be happening, really--especially with 8 healers. I personally wouldn't take more than 7 healers simply for DPS reasons, so 8 should be pretty much a shoe-in for keeping the MT alive.

What I find interesting about your best attempt is that virtually all the healers are on the MTs. When I saw your initial healing numbers, I assumed Xhire was on raid patch healing based on his high lead on the others--however, most of his healing are on the two MTs. He's simply outperforming your other healers rather substantially.

Perhaps the issue is actually the fact that there are so many healers on the MT(s). I think assigning 3-4 specifically to the MT, 2 to offhealing, and 1 to the Hurtful tank would help avoid issues. A lack of healing discipline and assignments can cause periods where many healers are "randomly" swapping away from the MT, leading to a string of low or no heals. I can't think of any logical reason why 7 healers on the MT should be allowing him to die at grow 8 otherwise.

Some more coordination on the part of your healers could solve the premature death issues. Also, as you are heavy on Paladins I would also recommend using Imp. LoH at around the 8 growth mark. It may help ease the burden on your healers for long enough.

Ariose · 06/11/07, 9:41 AM

Thank you for the input all. Here's hoping for progress next week.

probiscus · 06/11/07, 1:45 PM

So, my guild had it's first gruul kill last night. I was hoping to solicit some feedback as to how to improve my personal DPS (aside from the obvious getting better gear).

For what it's worth 50% of the people in raid were recent ally re-rolls, and were probably relatively undergeared for the fight. My personal DPS suffered on the latter fights as I was instructed to stop CoD and use CoR for the melee instead. I've yet to run some numbers, but after I do I'm thinking if we've got 3 locks we should be running CoR / CoS and skip CoE given our group comp / DPS breakdown.

In short, I'm trying to figure out how some people (affliction locks) are able to sustain 1000+ DPS on this guy. The only thing I can think of is standing closer to gruul so when you get bounced up you're not running for a wall but looking for free space near him so you can nuke in the few seconds before you freeze up. I can't see that accounting for 300 DPS though

Edit: ewps, forgot the wws link:
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...=11629-12116&m

Savos · 06/11/07, 8:47 PM

Originally Posted by Jayde

Ariose: if a MT is dying at grow 8, healing is obviously a problem. That should not be happening, really--especially with 8 healers. I personally wouldn't take more than 7 healers simply for DPS reasons, so 8 should be pretty much a shoe-in for keeping the MT alive.

Their healing is actually pretty good for the most part, their tank should get better at using shield block.

Look at crushing statistics and see how much damage that adds up to, especially spike damage.

RK · 06/11/07, 9:30 PM

Originally Posted by Jayde

Just a note: I think advising a guild working on getting their first Gruul kill that an 8 grow kill is what they should be shooting for isn't very realistic. Most initial kills are in the 12 grow range, so they should be planning accordingly.

Ours was at 17 grows, 10 seconds short of 18. Go up a few posts and give our DPS some tips please

(well, beyond "move OUT of the cave-in before you die", which isn't a specific DPS thing). That was with 8 healers. We'd had a couple of wipes where we got to similar grow numbers and just lost out due to too many DPS dying early. 8 grows means your healers are seriously screwing up. You mentioned that they're concentrating on loading the MT up with HoTs... at 8 grows, that's hardly necessary, and probably means they aren't concentrating on actually topping up the MT, which is the key. Better a 100% hp with just an earth shield when reverb hits than a 60% MT with earth shield and two renews. MT must must must have shield block up all the time, too, and this goes double for going into a reverb at 8-10+ grows.

They've got an elemental shaman who appears to be in healing gear from the low max damage numbers sometimes shooting lighting bolts and sometimes throwing heals, and what I hope is a prot paladin doing DPS numbers that a prot warrior would be ashamed of. I haven't really got time to take a deeper look at their DPS, but those two things alone show some inefficiency going along.

archz0r · 06/11/07, 10:25 PM

Originally Posted by Savos

Their healing is actually pretty good for the most part, their tank should get better at using shield block.

Look at crushing statistics and see how much damage that adds up to, especially spike damage.

Another thing to point out is the lack of Heroic Strike. Your MT should be using Heroic Strike almost every hit, which he clearly isn't.

kharen · 06/11/07, 10:51 PM

Originally Posted by RK

Ours was at 17 grows, 10 seconds short of 18. Go up a few posts and give our DPS some tips please

Looking at the rogues, Crimsonryu is using Evis rather than Rupture, and IP rather than DP - both of those are suboptimal, unless you've got a ton of warlocks and shadow priests using up all the debuff slots (and you don't). Safiyania is using both IP and DP, which is almost certainly suboptimal. Obviously i can't tell what your groups were like, but if you don't have a warrior/shaman/rogue/rogue/X (where X is preferably a feral druid), you should. And if you do, the shaman should be dropping windfury and the rogues shouldn't be using MH poisons.

Other than that, they seem to be doing pretty well, considering their gear level. Having checked them in the armory though, they could both do with working on their hit rating a little - in particular, Crimsonryu would be better off if he replaced those crit gems with hit gems.

Oh, and the whole 'dying to hurtful strike' thing isn't doing them any favours, but it's hard to tell if that's their fault or a tanking issue.