The WWS Thread - Page 3

Kazanir · 05/28/07, 3:01 AM

The only melee who reports being threat-capped on Gruul ever is Heeroyui. He is one of the only ones who (along with Zyrexana, the warlock) can consistently break 800-900 DPS on things, and apparently the nerf since the patch has hurt him significantly. I think that if our melee was putting out 900 DPS consistently that we might switch to a beartank then for threat reasons but it hasn't been necessary yet.

Edit: Thanks for all the advice btw. I'm on the warpath with this now because we should have killed him halfway through the night, and a new bosskill on the first night of pulls is always a nice boost to morale. Instead we had this crap and the failure of leadership to teach people to DPS well is glaringly obvious. I'm not sure how to go about lighting a fire under people to learn to play but this thread seemed like a good start.

Equalizer · 05/28/07, 5:06 AM

So looking at EJ's WWS. It looks like my guild needs more/better shamans. And should talk to our mages about possibly respec'ing into that fire build that both their top two mages are using.

Seeing the DPS and time it took to kill Gruul is nuts.

Amarilia · 05/28/07, 5:09 AM

Have your mages spec deep fire. Our mages are always on top on hydross having around 1k dps easily. We are nuking the adds seperately though so your mages could do even more. 700 dps as a frostmage on hydross is pretty good so imagine the dps with a superior spec.

Northerner · 05/28/07, 5:21 AM

Sure, some very old stuff if people like to look at it:
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=6vslyhabumoh1
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=rae5pg5pv1liq
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=4pqqjz46gizfk

No picking on us please... it's a growing guild yet. =)

Boevis · 05/28/07, 5:56 AM

Originally Posted by Kazanir

Okay, I'll bite.

Our most recent (post-patch) Gruul kill: http://wow.virakar.com/stats/wws-20070523-1845/

And tonight's 1% Hydross wipe using AOE: http://wow.virakar.com/stats/wws-20070527-2003/

Basically our DPS sucks for a lot of reasons and I don't know what they are. Two mages in the Hydross meter (Serv and Carea) were Frost for some reason that I can't fathom, but beyond this I'm explanationless. I can only come up with 4 reasons that DPS can suck:

a) People make horrible gear choices
b) People make horrible spec choices
c) People don't know what buttons to push when
d) People don't push said buttons fast enough

How does one fix this kind of guild-wide problem?

The first thing I notice is that the shadow priest is utterly terrible, despite having t4 gear, he doesn't even have +800 shadow, his spec is not ideal, and he really seems to have held back a lot or just been asleep (Had VT up only 3 out of the 5 minutes ..) Do you guys use KTM?

You may want to link other people's armory's. A priest in my guild for instance that does 800 dps every Gruul has over 1100 shadow damage (though I think he's using some weird pvp spec right now): http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#c...nger&n=Cinched Just seeing what other people can easily get by changing professions and picking different rewards can give a good idea of what you can do.

Jeru · 05/28/07, 6:41 AM

Looking at these DPS numbers makes me wonder how WWS actually calculates "damage per second".

Does it start calculating dps the second you are put into combat, and stop when everyone is out of combat, or does it only calculate dps time when you actually do damage, pausing the counter when you stop dps (during shatters)

The reason I'm asking this is because the posted numbers seem artificially inflated compared to what I was seeing on my (synced) damage meters. The mages in the first post have 1000+dps, and their main source of damage is fireballs, avg, hit just short of 3000. 3 second cast -> 1000 dps. So to get 1000 dps over the fight they have to chaincast fireballs with no interruption whatsoever, but there's cave-ins, shatters, and whatnot, so it looks like WWS is pausing their dps count during these phases.

Why is it pausing there? Just to get more impressive dps numbers or does it have a practical use?

Cadfael · 05/28/07, 6:54 AM

Originally Posted by Jeru

Looking at these DPS numbers makes me wonder how WWS actually calculates "damage per second".

Does it start calculating dps the second you are put into combat, and stop when everyone is out of combat, or does it only calculate dps time when you actually do damage, pausing the counter when you stop dps (during shatters)

Every "damaging" action a player does starts a 5 second window. If nothing else follows within those 5 seconds, you lose DPS time. If you are a DoT class, you should basically be in DPS time during the full fight, unless you die early.

The reason I'm asking this is because the posted numbers seem artificially inflated compared to what I was seeing on my (synced) damage meters. The mages in the first post have 1000+dps, and their main source of damage is fireballs, avg, hit just short of 3000. 3 second cast -> 1000 dps. So to get 1000 dps over the fight they have to chaincast fireballs with no interruption whatsoever, but there's cave-ins, shatters, and whatnot, so it looks like WWS is pausing their dps count during these phases.

Why is it pausing there? Just to get more impressive dps numbers or does it have a practical use?

Probably every damage meter out there does calculate DPS wrt DPS-time differently. I've noted that SWStats group DPS (which for me is displayed in a FuBar addon) does match amazingly well with WWS total raid DPS number, however the individual DPS numbers of players do not.

panny · 05/28/07, 6:57 AM

From the old Sustained DPS thread:

Originally Posted by panny

From pre-patch Gruul to post-patch, I went from: 926 DPS -> 728 DPS.

This is with:
-Drakefist (Crusader) + Gladiator's Cleaver (Mongoose) and Hourglass of the Unraveller; to
-Dragonmaw (nothing yet) + Gladiator's Cleaver (Mongoose) and Romulo's Poison Vial.

Other than that, the rest of my gear was exactly the same. Both times I was completely unbuffed with no DPS pots/food and with BS/LoTP.

I gained a bunch of stats from the patch (my hit went up over 25% without me even stacking it), but my DPS still dropped by ~200 on Gruul. The ratio of WF procs to white hits roughly halved. Gruul obviously isn't the best fight to test things on (and my UI was also not as fine-tuned as it could've been), so I'm not ready to quit my shaman without further testing. :P

One thing we noticed about post-patch 2.1 Gruul is that "guardian type" pets such as the Fire Elemental and Felsteel boar do perform shatter damage, whereas they previously do not. I'd recommend not using any of the summoned pets without pet bars (Shadowfiend now has a pet bar so is probably safe?).

Kazanir · 05/28/07, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by Boevis

The first thing I notice is that the shadow priest is utterly terrible, despite having t4 gear, he doesn't even have +800 shadow, his spec is not ideal, and he really seems to have held back a lot or just been asleep (Had VT up only 3 out of the 5 minutes ..) Do you guys use KTM?

You may want to link other people's armory's. A priest in my guild for instance that does 800 dps every Gruul has over 1100 shadow damage (though I think he's using some weird pvp spec right now): http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#c...nger&n=Cinched Just seeing what other people can easily get by changing professions and picking different rewards can give a good idea of what you can do.

We do use KTM. How does one get WWS to link to people's Armory profiles? On the latest parses I always have our guild name and server entered but I don't see any Armory links popping up on the Hydross parse.

manly · 05/28/07, 1:34 PM

Originally Posted by Equalizer

So looking at EJ's WWS. It looks like my guild needs more/better shamans. And should talk to our mages about possibly respec'ing into that fire build that both their top two mages are using.

Seeing the DPS and time it took to kill Gruul is nuts.

Well, if you check the many WWS posted here, you will notice that it seems like there is 2 kind of parses : the ones with dps around 700-800dps, and the ones with 900-1000dps. If you want top DPS, your players must have a PVE spec, and that is pretty much the only way to get high numbers past group stacking. I know as far as EJ goes, every raiding mage is 10/48/3. If the fight is mana intensive for dps (typically this means aoe and/or long fight), then yes, its pretty obvious you put a shadow priest in the dps group and you will see probably upwards of 20%+ dmg from the classes in the group having the shadow priest. If you give an elemental shaman to a mage, the mage dps will rise *extremely significantly*, probably 125 dps, if not more (I am pulling numbers out of nowhere in case you ask, but I do know its fairly noticeable). If you wonder why your raid takes x more minutes to kill a boss, its probably because the other group has less healers and more dps. Group stacking has always been a matter of 'how few healers can we manage to bring' for as long as I can remember. If you can do the fight wiith less healers, rdps will (should?) go up.

Originally Posted by jeru

The reason I'm asking this is because the posted numbers seem artificially inflated compared to what I was seeing on my (synced) damage meters. The mages in the first post have 1000+dps, and their main source of damage is fireballs, avg, hit just short of 3000. 3 second cast -> 1000 dps. So to get 1000 dps over the fight they have to chaincast fireballs with no interruption whatsoever, but there's cave-ins, shatters, and whatnot, so it looks like WWS is pausing their dps count during these phases.

The numbers are correct. A properly geared mage can definately push that dps. I know we even did a gruul kill with 2 elemental shaman in the mage group -- mages were over 1100 dps. Needless to say double bloodlust helped a lot. But to get back on topic, cave-ins are easily dealt-with using blink, or walking away as you fireblast. When you get tossed by shatter, you can fireblast mid-air. The rest of the time, I know I can get 2700-2800 average non crit fireballs on a target with no pots, given full debuffs on target and a shaman in my group. Now keep in mind I can max my hit% and still get 34% crit, so 1000dps is far from unattainable, given the cast interruptions.

Dakous · 05/28/07, 1:41 PM

Originally Posted by Praetorian

One word: Do not post sloppy WWS parses that include trash clearing, multiple boss attempts in one unseparated log, or otherwise obfuscate what really happened. They'll be deleted as they aren't constructive. Go to the UI forum thread and ask there if you need help getting a good parse.

At the risk of being terrible, if I could ask this rule be broken once or twice - I would like to compare against one or two other "we've recently killed Gruul" guild's later half of Karazhan (Nightbane especially) mega-log - the hosted option now has an auto-split. Preferrably with group makeups that are relatively synergous.

If not, terribly sorry. Just thought it would be useful to me. I know there are plenty of caveats and Gruul is a better "Patchwerk-esq" sample, eccet.

Edit: I suppose I should play too: http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=en2wn1r563dww - That's almost an entire Karazhan clear (we had gone in earlier in the week for an attempted "Nightbane-attunement-only run", but the split function is in there. Let me preemptively defend the "anonymous" feral who died at the start of one of the attempts and could be anyone! - some sneaky paladin said, "Hey, want salv?" right as Nightbane was about to land...

♦ Praetorian · 05/28/07, 1:45 PM

Originally Posted by Dakous

At the risk of being terrible, if I could ask this rule be broken once or twice - I would like to compare against one or two other "we've recently killed Gruul" guild's later half of Karazhan (Nightbane especially) mega-log - the hosted option now has an auto-split. Preferrably with group makeups that are relatively synergous.

If not, terribly sorry. Just thought it would be useful to me. I know there are plenty of caveats and Gruul is a better "Patchwerk-esq" sample, eccet.

That's fine. I just want to avoid what I've seen in the past where people post an unseparated log of Maulgar, Lair Brutes, and 3 Gruul wipes and say "hey guys this is my WWS what should we work on??"

Also, re: the DPS question above:

WWS DPS numbers are the average DPS done while actually DPSing. It's not just damage divided by length of fight. It's DPS while DPSing -- the other relevant figure is seen at the top of a player's personal stats page, and covers "DPS Presence," which is how often they were doing damage. Low presence is something people can clearly work on improving, and often makes the difference between mediocre damage and top-notch damage.

• Hamlet · 05/28/07, 2:28 PM

Originally Posted by Dakous

At the risk of being terrible, if I could ask this rule be broken once or twice - I would like to compare against one or two other "we've recently killed Gruul" guild's later half of Karazhan (Nightbane especially) mega-log - the hosted option now has an auto-split. Preferrably with group makeups that are relatively synergous.

If not, terribly sorry. Just thought it would be useful to me. I know there are plenty of caveats and Gruul is a better "Patchwerk-esq" sample, eccet.

If you look back at my WWS link from page 1, there are some logs from late Karazhan fights one week. It was a month ago, so the level of progression is roughly what you describe.

Akhtal · 05/28/07, 2:42 PM

We should clear Kara tomorrow or Wednesday and we are exactly the type of guild you are looking for (see my earlier post, #15 I believe) I'll make sure to post it up after...

On a site note, can anyone of you DPS-cracks check up my WWS? We have a few good people and a few bad, but all of them are looking for advices to get better... I'll happily transmit information on my own boards if anyone takes the time to help us...

edit : typo

Karakas · 05/28/07, 2:43 PM

This might be a bit off topic for this thread, so move/delete as necessary, but I've tried taking parses with /combatlog and WWS but it seems like each time my parse is missing a significant amount of the fight. I believe that I have my settings done correctly for increasing my combatlog range. Here are the lines from my config.wtf file:

SET CombatLogRangeCreature "200"
SET CombatDeathLogRange "200"

Are there any commonly used mods out there that directly modify/filter your combatlog so that certain names/actions are filtered out? or mods that overwrite your combatlogrange settings in your config.wtf file? The only mod that I can think of that might affect the combatlog is SWStats.