The WWS Thread - Page 3

Akhtal · 05/28/07, 5:27 PM

Originally Posted by manly

Looking quickly at the gruul kill, specifically at mages,

Niaxato has 13.6% miss rate. This is flat out unacceptable. Theses numbers seem to match closely the armory gear, so I am going to assume that no gear was swapped in for gruul. The first thing this mage needs to change is to try and get 10-13% hit from gear. Replace Seer's Signet by that Cenarion Expedition exalted ring. Change that Mark of Defiance and put Scryer's Bloodgem (preferably neltharion's tear). If that is not available, change Mark of Defiance to Shiffar's Nexus-Horn. The other problem is 83 % of presence. Minimize downtimes. Also, bloodlust would help when < 20%.

Vasmilda has unenchanted gear. And 12int enchant to bracers wont cut it. Otherwise that players seems to have had a fluke on crits, since armory indicates higher crit that what the WWS got. 80% presence needs more work as well. Otherwise I am not too sure what to say, full shadoweave, yet so low dps ? If you have proper tanks, you shouldn't ever hold back on dps on gruul, or even need to invis (there were no invis in the parse, just saying). Frostbolt whenever you can -- not too sure what to add here.

Thank you for your time... Tank aggro isn't a problem, I'm usually hovering under a 10k difference of the MT, usually a 5k average unless I get a "bad" dodge streak and I'm totally out of rage... The only guy that sometimes has to slow down is our enhancement shammy, and that isn't the case anymore since the patch

◊ manly · 05/28/07, 5:35 PM

Well, just keep in mind, if your guild uses a strategy like 'hide behind a rock before shatter', then this will affect the presence% of any player. But assuming a gruul where positioning is fairly ignored outside of shatters (and besides the golden rule of staying within totem range), your mages have no reason to perferm a lot of movement on gruul. This indirectly translates into more presence%.

Akhtal · 05/28/07, 5:40 PM

we send a group north, a group SE and a group SW I believe, rest are either in melee range or people who can afford to move (Affliction locks, Tree druid, etc) I'll pass the message to Niax, and I'll see Vasmilda tonight so... I know she is waiting for Prince's dagger (10 weeks since last drop I believe) before getting her weapon enchanted... I'm a caster-enchants noob, is there a +dmg to bracers?

Osse · 05/28/07, 6:42 PM

First 'proper way Hydross' kill: http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=m5j5yqg4onbtw

Group buffs: resto shammy and all I gained from her buffs was 20 seconds of heroism as dpsers on the other side didnt want to switch spots and then we just.. pulled and I had no totems for the entire fight.

Two paladins, they buffed salvation and might because other two hunters couldnt control when to stop dps (*sigh*).

I dont honestly want to know what kind of numbers I can deal with a cat, enchancement shammy and two BM hunters in the group.

So.. the actual fight.. Yeah I could have chain chugged fel mana potions instead of wasting tiny bit of dps on adds by fd+drinking after every second transition or so. Think hunters mark dropped off twice (I'm the only one that refreshes it -.-).

We banish two water elementals and aoe the nature adds down.

Thats it for now, maybe I get a decent group for Hydross in future and break 1.4k dps. :P

ps. I have 200 yard combat log edited so its accurate.

BeeLz · 05/28/07, 7:04 PM

Very impressive osse.
I'm wondering what taido did wrong though. The only mage with a shadowpriest and awfully low on damage

• giansm · 05/28/07, 7:09 PM

This is my guild's wws index:

http://www.its.caltech.edu/~gian/STASIS/wws-history/

We're the type of guild whose members sometimes, but rarely, exceed 800 dps. If you look at the May 23 Gruul kill (post patch) we have Beastmasonn, a 10/48/3 fire mage with almost 1000 fire damage, in a shadow priest group, using mana pots, doing only 719 dps. We have Ryans, a 15/41/5 combat dagger rogue with an enhancement shaman, feral druid, and fury warrior in his group, putting out 774 dps. We consider these two to be good DPSers but even with decent specs and group compositions they are not posting the kinds of numbers that I see elsewhere on these forums.

Slimjimm was main tanking with Rideingbeard offtanking. Rideingbeard did die but Ryans died before he did, and Rideingbeard's death shouldn't have affected Beastmasonn.

Osse · 05/28/07, 7:10 PM

Died two mins before Hydross died and probably had connection problems like usually.

Btw Giansm, tell Yimii that 8 aimed shots on Magtheridon is 8 too many, same with two serpent stings.

Using mana potions instead of aspect of the viper helps too.

Shandara · 05/28/07, 7:12 PM

Our latest Karathress kill (Merynne is me)

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=ced63zxhi6lei

Not sure if our dps is on the ball, had about 1m 30 odd left before enrage.

Ashiya · 05/28/07, 7:35 PM

Originally Posted by BeeLz

Very impressive osse.
I'm wondering what taido did wrong though. The only mage with a shadowpriest and awfully low on damage

He died at the fourth transition or so. I can know, since I was tombhealing -_-. He got a 250% mark tomb and well, he's a mage in tailoring crafted gear... Fast death, that was.

I assume he encountered mana issues from that point on, no idea.

◊ manly · 05/28/07, 7:38 PM

Originally Posted by Osse

First 'proper way Hydross' kill: http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=m5j5yqg4onbtw

Except that all 4 of your mage was hardly aoeing :/

Vanyon did 4% of his/her dmg as aoe.
Urzula, 16% (suffered death though)
Taido did 24%, and only casted scorch, no fireballs (!) (death

)
Saklig, 21% (arcane spec, sadly)

It seems that the only spell your mages use is flamestrike for aoe. There is no reason really to not use blastwave or dragon's breath. Arcane explosion is considerably better DPS, at the cost of lower DPM.

On the other hand, your warlocks vary between 22%, 37%, 45% (!) of their dmg dealt as aoe.

Neckface · 05/28/07, 8:09 PM

Any chance we could get Khazal to comment on why (oh why!?!?) he has a Fiery enchant on his Spiteblade? Any why he's using blue gloves?

And yet he's still putting out 1,000 dps. I think I'm going to cry.

• QControl · 05/28/07, 8:16 PM

Because I'm not going to waste mongoose mats/enchant fee(we have no one with mongoose) on a Kara weapon. As for the gloves, I only saw T4 drop twice and this was very early on when they were worse than Assassination so I didn't bother rolling on them.

Neckface · 05/28/07, 8:28 PM

Originally Posted by QControl

Because I'm not going to waste mongoose mats/enchant fee(we have no one with mongoose) on a Kara weapon. As for the gloves, I only saw T4 drop twice and this was very early on when they were worse than Assassination so I didn't bother rolling on them.

Thanks for the response. Important lesson for everybody who stresses about loot.

This is sorta like the guy on the shiny titanium mountain bike in a matching lycra outfit with aero sunglasses being passed on the hill climb by the guy wearing a ratty t-shirt and riding an old bike. "It's not the gear," he says on the way by, "it's your legs."

• mutagen · 05/28/07, 8:48 PM

Originally Posted by Jeru

Looking at these DPS numbers makes me wonder how WWS actually calculates "damage per second".

Does it start calculating dps the second you are put into combat, and stop when everyone is out of combat, or does it only calculate dps time when you actually do damage, pausing the counter when you stop dps (during shatters)

The reason I'm asking this is because the posted numbers seem artificially inflated compared to what I was seeing on my (synced) damage meters. The mages in the first post have 1000+dps, and their main source of damage is fireballs, avg, hit just short of 3000. 3 second cast -> 1000 dps. So to get 1000 dps over the fight they have to chaincast fireballs with no interruption whatsoever, but there's cave-ins, shatters, and whatnot, so it looks like WWS is pausing their dps count during these phases.

Why is it pausing there? Just to get more impressive dps numbers or does it have a practical use?

IMO that absolute DPS number is very useful because it shows what someone is capable of in a stand and DPS fight (Patachwerk). It also helps isolate performance problems, a quick sort on Damage Done and then on DPS shows who died early, who isn't getting back out of Ground Slams and back to DPS quickly enough.

WWS will display the total fight DPS if you click the config link and select the Average DPS number.

FWIW here are logs from a 'medium' guild that has just cleared Karazhan and is still working on Gruul:

Aran, Prince & Illhoof
Nightbane
Gruul Attempts

Nothing notable, rather dismal at times, but we're making progress.

Xei · 05/28/07, 9:14 PM

Originally Posted by Akhtal

Funny thing this threat popped up today when I was about to make one similar...

so yeah, basically I'd be looking at any suggestion about improving our general DPS... a bit of background on my guild :

-We have 20 people clearing Kara each week, + 10 that are up to Prince (their 3rd week in)...
-We've killed Gruul about 5 times and Maulgar about 7
-We usually have the same 20ish people in raid, (from the 2 Kara teams) + 5 random, usually from the last Kara
-Most of us PvP a lot/PvPed in the past so PvP spec might be present...
-Half of us are ex WL/HWL/Rank11+, we killed Nef and err.. Sartura pre-BC (I never did AQ cause I joined pretty late november... we stopped raiding to PvP when that PvP patch hit) so we don't have a lot of experience, but most of us are good players.

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=s4e5umeszn6no

Vasmilda is frost
Niaxato is fire
I was tanking Hurtfuls
Extascy is Prot, Bollark is obviously MT...
Bula/West are PvP 2h specced

oh and disregard the Mag tries, it was our very first time in there...

Looking over your Mage's reports, it seems your fire Mage Niaxato lacks +spell hit. It is pretty much the MOST valueable stat for boss (lvl 73) DPS. According to WWS, he has around 11% miss rate which equates to only 5% to hit. There are many +hit items out there, as well as gems. He can keep the +dmg/crit gear for trash clears and PvP - but switch to more +hit for boss fights.

He also cast scorch far too many times compared to fireball. 170 scorches and 93 fireballs. Fire Mage DPS usually revolves around a 5:1 Fireball:Scorch ratio - only really casting scorch to keep the 5/5 debuff up for 15% more damage. This could be due to a mana issue though. Looking at his talents, he is 1/57/3 - he should really drop some of those fire PvP talents like impact/blazing speed/imp fire blast and pick up clearcasting from Arcane tree.

Vasmilda has good gear and good +hit and spams frostbolt - but frost just cannot keep up with fire.

Xei · 05/28/07, 9:25 PM

Originally Posted by giansm

This is my guild's wws index:

http://www.its.caltech.edu/~gian/STASIS/wws-history/

We're the type of guild whose members sometimes, but rarely, exceed 800 dps. If you look at the May 23 Gruul kill (post patch) we have Beastmasonn, a 10/48/3 fire mage with almost 1000 fire damage, in a shadow priest group, using mana pots, doing only 719 dps. We have Ryans, a 15/41/5 combat dagger rogue with an enhancement shaman, feral druid, and fury warrior in his group, putting out 774 dps. We consider these two to be good DPSers but even with decent specs and group compositions they are not posting the kinds of numbers that I see elsewhere on these forums.

Slimjimm was main tanking with Rideingbeard offtanking. Rideingbeard did die but Ryans died before he did, and Rideingbeard's death shouldn't have affected Beastmasonn.

10/48/3 Fire Mage with 1000 fire damage and (going off WWS) 35%crit and ~11% hit ... and only putting out 719DPS? That is quite surprising, I would question him about this. It shows that he got heals from other people (mostly Nsgod - Priest) so he wasn't stopping to bandage after Shatter. I fail to see why he only got off 48 fireballs.

My guess is they are not really trying as hard as they should. That Mage has very similar +dmg/crit/hit to what I do and I constantly break 1000DPS. An unrelated fight, but last Kazzak kill with no consumables I put out 1150DPS - I would expect it to be less on Gruul due to Shatter/Reverb, but with a flask/oil/food as well as the extra damage from a longer execute phase it wouldn't be much less.

Xei · 05/28/07, 9:36 PM

Originally Posted by Kazanir

Okay, I'll bite.

Our most recent (post-patch) Gruul kill: http://wow.virakar.com/stats/wws-20070523-1845/

And tonight's 1% Hydross wipe using AOE: http://wow.virakar.com/stats/wws-20070527-2003/

Basically our DPS sucks for a lot of reasons and I don't know what they are. Two mages in the Hydross meter (Serv and Carea) were Frost for some reason that I can't fathom, but beyond this I'm explanationless. I can only come up with 4 reasons that DPS can suck:

a) People make horrible gear choices
b) People make horrible spec choices
c) People don't know what buttons to push when
d) People don't push said buttons fast enough

How does one fix this kind of guild-wide problem?

Ill comment on Mages because that is the only class I feel experienced enough to tell people to L2P on.

Bhal seems to be doing good - 811DPS on a long fight like Hydross isn;t horrible. Your stats dont link to their armoury profile, and I am not going to go searching for it, but from looking at his printout he seems to be doing well (unless he has uber gear, then expect more).

Servicious casts Arcane Missles FAR too much, its a horrible spell for mana and unless you are 61 Arcane spec, its pretty horrible for damage too. Serv also cast more AE's then Frostbolts, what was he/she doing when the AE phase was over?

Carea did ok with Frost spec - good spread of damage between AEing and nuking. 720DPS is pretty good for Frost spec on Hydross ... try to convince both to spec 10/48/3 and you will see substantial DPS increase from both Frost Mages.

On the surface, without looking at Armoury profiles - it seems like they have what it takes, but lack the drive to really push it.

Xei · 05/28/07, 9:44 PM

Originally Posted by Zaq

http://www.tehslax.com/WowWebstats/w...215/index.html
Is our most recent, and unbelievably ugly, Gruul kill. (We had our first Mag win this week for progression level). What worries me most I suppose, is that my gear is hardly impressive, I was CoSing, (Necropotence was probably using CoE), but I still did the most damage over a glacially paced attempt. And even my contribution is pretty laughable in contrast to some of the logs posted.

I'd be very interested in suggestions/observations.

Edit: I think we used two off-tanks since the Hurtfuls were causing some kind of problem or another.

You had 2 rogues and a Hunter with 9/8/5% presence? That is a crapload of wasted DPS which is why your kill probably sucked. I would say that is 100% the root of your problem there, did you pull while they where afk?

It also looks as if you had 10 melee DPS (including tanking warriors/druids) - that is a lot to squeeze in and only 1 Mage? And the 1 Mage is a frost mage who won't put out as much DPS as a Fire Mage.

NmareBfly · 05/28/07, 11:14 PM

Here's our most recent grull kill. Gearwise, we have 1-2 groups clear KZ weekly, and we got our first mag kill post patch. I'd post the mag kill log, but something odd seems to have happened with my combat log range and he's missing ~500k damage taken.

We had two early deaths do to a bad shatter, but that doesn't (usually) happen. Clearly, preventing that is the first way to increase our DPS, but... we could be doing far better anyway.

As a personal note, I'm levelling tailoring this week. I actually like farming herbs and didn't want to drop it, but the numbers really speak for themselves. I think I do fairly well DPS wise, but I notice most other priests in parses don't SWD nearly as much as I do. Is that because of a threat issue, or does the scaling damage make it too dangerous to use often? I wouldn't think it's mana; I rarely have mana trouble until deep into a fight even on full burn, but then again I chain pot and use an alchemist's stone.

Spades · 05/28/07, 11:21 PM

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...ayve&s=148,550

This is Prince, and I just wanted some feedback. (Note on the log: I have no idea why it says there are two Prince attempts and trash mobs in there. It's just the one-try kill, trust me.) According to the rogue DPS sheet, I should be putting out 700-900 DPS depending on my buff status, yet here I'm only doing 534. I know Prince is a weird fight for melee DPS, and the only buffs I had were Battle Shout and Ferocious Inspiration, but I just want to make sure I'm not doing anything wrong with my play.

Xei · 05/28/07, 11:37 PM

A lot of those DPS spreadsheets assume things like shaman totems, battle shout, TS Aura, 5 Sundered mob, FF etc - make sure they are not enabled by default as especially in a 10 man you won't have all those.

And the calculated DPS is on a stationary target with lowish armour I assume, Prince you have to move in and out for enfeeble and move from infernals etc - hardly the best fight to test melee DPS.

Run your parse on a fight like Maiden (conc still breaks repentance, yes?) to see a comparison.

Kronos · 05/28/07, 11:39 PM

Originally Posted by Spades

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...ayve&s=148,550

This is Prince, and I just wanted some feedback. (Note on the log: I have no idea why it says there are two Prince attempts and trash mobs in there. It's just the one-try kill, trust me.) According to the rogue DPS sheet, I should be putting out 700-900 DPS depending on my buff status, yet here I'm only doing 534. I know Prince is a weird fight for melee DPS, and the only buffs I had were Battle Shout and Ferocious Inspiration, but I just want to make sure I'm not doing anything wrong with my play.

Only 6 applications of slice and dice, the fight was 6 mins and you only had snd up for about half. I'd say thats pretty huge.

You need more hit, 15% miss on Prince decreases your damage a lot.
Enchant your cloak, get new bracers, and get a new mainhand weapon.

Spades · 05/29/07, 12:01 AM

I had S&D up the whole time I was DPSing him (and only rarely did it drop when I was running out) so I'm not sure why it's saying I didn't.

Besides any gear issues (which I am already aware of :P) is there anything else I'm not doing right?

EDIT: That might be 6 re-applications of S&D, as I usually refresh it at 1 or 2 seconds.

• GokieKS · 05/29/07, 1:34 AM

Originally Posted by giansm

This is my guild's wws index:

http://www.its.caltech.edu/~gian/STASIS/wws-history/

What do you use to create the WWS history? I'm starting to do logs for my guild, and I'm looking into ways of keeping a history of them all, and the way you have it set up seems pretty interesting.

And here's our most recent post-2.1 Gruul kill: http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=xzqie5crxtggu - not a very typical raid setup though, since we only had 1 mage, no shadow priest, no elemental shaman.

• Binkenstein · 05/29/07, 1:43 AM

Originally Posted by GokieKS

- not a very typical raid setup though.... no elemental shaman.

[OT]This comment brings a smile to my face.[/OT]