Apate

Do you have a link to the testing that shows this? I missed it and I want to make sure that i have the thread subscribed.

See you, auntie.

 

pinchet

To be honest, I don't think there is a thread on it but it's quite obvious to see it does put threat on the person who took the PoM/Lifebloom/Earth Shield if you are doing a fight with add phases. Morogrim murlocs aggroing on the MT, hell, even last night we had Solarian adds aggroing on the AR tanks across the room dancing because PoM was bouncing between the 2 of them generating MASSIVE amounts of threat. If you look in your combat log the heal is technically cast by yourself. "Apate's Prayer of Mending heals Apate for #."

Everyone knows that a heal on others does .5 threat per point of life healed. This does not include over healing. A heal on yourself does 2 points of threat for every point of life healed. Since PoM is "cast" by the player who has it, if your PoM heals for 2k then that player has an instant 4k threat added to them.

 

Apate

Herein lie some links and testing that may enlighten you.
[Druid] Different threat produced by different heals?

See you, auntie.

 

Karmen

Here's a void reaver parse from our first kill last night:
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=ekxh4unkrqciw

Nothing too special, the melee were threat capped the whole fight.

 

pinchet

If you had already done some testing in the thread why did you ask for a link to some testing?

If what is semi-determined in that thread is true, then how were our AR tanks pulling Solarian adds to themselves last night? PoM was the only action that they were "casting". Other than the ticks of WotA PoM was bouncing between the 2 of them and until we just stopped using it all together then when the adds spawned they would generally aggro onto the tanks to start. They were literally doing nothing. Standing still and /dancing. No potions, nothing.

 

◊ Praetorian

Uhh, each Solarian Agent spawns with maybe 700 or 1000 points of aggro on a random player. If it were heal aggro, ALL of the Agents would've been going for the same target.

 

pinchet

And are the Murlocs on Morogrim done in the same fashion? Every single one of them would aggro the tank, not just 1 or 2.

I'm not sure if all of the adds were going for the AR tanks but we definitely had more than one on them at one point in time. It seemed like all of these "aggroing on the wrong target" problems we were having were corrected by simply not using PoM/LB/ES on that person.

 

Poly

So we finally killed Prince last night. I am worried about the dps of our Rogue and Moonkin and not knowing enough about what is the best dps cycle for them, was hoping someone here could give me some insight. Also any useful critiques of my dps would be good, though keep in mind my timer addon broke and I didn't get it fixed until after we killed him, as well as the fact that I was always putting up either Curse of Weakness or Elements during the night and therefore never got the extra dps from using Curse of Doom.

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=bli1l66vcmqkc

 

◊ Oggie

Basically, it's 5 seconds after you have anything involving both yours and the boss's name in the logs, it shuts down, as 100% defined from first combat log presence of the boss to last.

I've noticed some weirdness about presence time as well (I'm not sure if resists keep you in presence?), but above is how it was stated at some point to work. I can't swear to it but I -strongly- recall having read the above in some of the documention, it just seems to be MIA now though.

 

Apate

I have no conclusive answers, only my own (bad) data and the inconclusive data of others. It was a shot in the dark, I guess, but I was hoping that you knew something that I didn't. It's also possible that PoM and LB (and Earth Shield?) don't act the same, too.

See you, auntie.

 

Cos-

Your rogue needs better weapons, about 100 more hit rating, to use bladeflurry (not one use on the kill attempt?) and appears to have died to a normal shadow nova that should be completely avoidable. He didn't use cloak of shadows once even though it could have saved him when he died.

99 melee swings in roughly 3 minutes of dps time with a 1.8/1.4 speed weapon set up seems awfully low. It's enough to make me wonder if the two times the log says slice and dice was applied were the only times he used it.

 

zepi

Moonkin Spreadsheet should give answers for your moonkin. Basically it's to IS, Starfire till IS has fallen, repeat at nausea, assuming you are manalimited, which every moonkin should be without shadowpriest. This holds true especially for higher amounts of +dmg, I can't tell for sure for such gear level.

Personally I wouldn't allow moonkin to participate our raids unless he'd keep Imp. Faerie Fire up, +3% hit for MT + Rogues + DPS warriors + Shamans is quite a boost to DPS. It'll cut few tens of DPS from top end Moonkins DPS, but it's well worth it imo.

On top of that and especially the concept of non-stop casting. Caster DPS should never be a second without casting their best Damage / Cast-time spell. Murnis got 41 Wraths at prince. Each wrath is 1.5sec cast. Assuming huge 500ms lag on top of that (which can be mostly circumvented with stopcasting macro + Quartz cast-bar mod) thats still 2s for each Wrath. 41 x 2sec = 82sec. On top of that 11 applications of IS, which is about 18 seconds or so assuming a bit of lag. That's 100second or 1minute 40second worth of casting in a 6minute encounter. Which means that he was basically doing nothing (except of course dodging infernals for over 60% of the time.

Once he can keep casting non-stop for most of the fight, he'll end up using twice the mana and thus need multiple mana-potions :/

For Rogues, priority 1 is to keep SnD up, after that depending on spec to spend all extra combo-points to keep rupture up. We've had a mutilate rogue playing with envenom whenever we have a enchancement shaman in raid, but it goes far above the "recommended basics of rogue dps".

 

Whiteknight

ES and PoM can pull murlocs onto the MT in Morogrim - I've seen this wipe the raid because a murloc eats the tank's shield block charge and Morogrim crushes the tank. Barring accidents though, your paladin should be able to outheal earthshield.

We use PoM on the AR sponges because it's really efficient - and yeah, one or sometimes 2 agents will aggro on the tanks, but we saw this behavior independent of the use of PoM. We just have a hunter shoot the agents back to the middle.

 

Safid

You might want to tell your rogue to use Cloak of Shadows to stay in for shadow novas that happen when he isn't enfeebled. My presence on a Prince fight is much much higher than 50%.

Is he dying early? That shouldn't happen unless you're dramatically unattentive. Running in and out of the shadow nova is easy since even without a boss mod he casts enfeeble 3-5s beforehand. The only time I die before the tank does is if I'm enfeebled, running away, and an Infernal falls on me.

 

probiscus

Wow. Guess I need to be more aggressive about strafing as opposed to just running to the back wall (what I was doing).

Though, part of that was we had like 5-6 people (even on the kill) getting hit with 10 orbs - b/c they literally wouldn't move. So, if I got marked and strafed their way, then they got marked, basically I had to run back to the far wall, then circle back around to my original spot to commence DPS again. Basically very inefficient.

However, I'd expect that given how easily we drop that guy we'll have better attendance for him going forward, which means we can drop the people who refuse to move for orbs.

 

pinchet

Whatever the case is, I'll do some testing with all 3 spells this weekend and post my results somewhere. I'm still convinced that the threat goes to the person it's on, not the original healer.

 

◊ Bryne

It's fairly widely accepted that this is the case, why would you need to do further testing?

ES, PoM, and Lifebloom are heals that originate, for all purposes, from the person they're cast on, and their threat applies the same way.

 

pinchet

It may be widely accepted but apparently some people still have their doubts, as you'll see if you read the thread linked by Apate a couple posts ago. I'd rather be 100% because as of right now no one is giving any definitive proof, including myself, other than "adds went to the wrong person" which could still be caused by other things.

 

Apate

Don't neglect the impact that having good threat values will have on Threat and KTM.
I'm looking forward to seeing your data, and thanks again

See you, auntie.

 

snape

I think the situation is fairly cut-and-dry, the only unknown I believe is the multiplier value assigned to the healing done.

PoM: all healing attributed to target
ES: all healing attributed to target
Lifebloom: ticks attributed to caster, final heal to target

If self-healing usually gives 2x threat (as opposed to 0.5x), then that's the thing that's really of unknown value here...the attributed threat is very well-known.

 

Poly

Zepi and Cos, thanks for the replies. Now I just need to figure out how to tell them this without getting them upset. Sadly, this guild is more a friends/casual guild than a hardcore raiding guild. The two in question are also among the more sensitive in being criticized so if you can think of how you have helped someone who was similar I am all ears. I myself am not an officer, just one of the more serious raiders who wants to succeed. Due to the nature of the guild it really is not an option to say learn to play or don't raid.

 

Whiteknight

 

probiscus

Anyone else notice the "DPS" for WWS isn't correct? I only really bothered to check into it due to the abnormally low "DPS time" figure I had (of 85%) for our first VR kill.

I figured the DPS figure was indicative of a net figure between "boss engaged -> boss dead" - but it's not. Apparently it only measures DPS for when you're actually DPSing. So, when you're in and out of the 5SR (I suck, OK) on fights like VR, it's not reducing your DPS for the time you're spending being an idiot running around on the far wall avoiding orbs.

If anyone can point me towards a good documentation site that will indicate exactly what WWS is telling us w/ each of its statistics, I'd really appreciate it.

 

Grub

You can go into the "config" option on your WWS report and click on "average DPS" to add that column to the listing. The DPS automatically listed is described as "Instant DPS", so yeah I imagine it pauses when you do not inflict damage for 5 seconds or more.

 

Whiteknight

The relevant numbers are "DPS" and "DPS time" - the first is the amount of damage per second you do while doing damage. The second is the amount of the fight you were actually actively attacking the boss.

1000dps, but 5min dps time on a 10min fight tells you much more information, for example.