RikkiP

Well the second bloodlust was right at the end of the fight, our Shaman CL saw that I was near the tank on threat and thought it would be funny to try and make me rip! He switched himself in and used it - Not that I complained, a second vanish was up afterall.

My gear is nothing that outstanding, 4 piece t5 with bloodsea brigand's chest. I was testing out a very crit high gear setup with low +hit, it seemed to work ok. Things like the BT Rogue trinket and the boots from Mother Shahraz. I think my unbuffed figures are 1862 AP, 200 hit rating, 5.52% passive haste & 28.2% Crit w/ Dragonspine and BT trinket. I'll try and make some more WWS this week, our melee group tends to perform very well and we also have some other exceptional DPSers which probably make for interesting viewing.

 

zepi

I can't understand how on earth you didn't draw aggro, especially when you wasn't hammering feint more often than just once. I've got a rogue in my guild who pulled 1500DPS against Karathress, but refuses to have Ench. shaman at Tidewalker, stating that putting the enhc shaman to MT group will increase his damage more.

Basically, he claims to be completely aggro-bound in every single-target race.

 

Stormtamer

I was wondering why hunters prefer + agility enchants instead of + ap enchants since the +ap enchants give you double the ap for example: Savagery enchant for a 2h gives you +70AP whereas +35agility enchant for a 2h gives you about 35 AP i understand that agility also gives you crit chance but is it worth it to lose 35 AP? Maybe i have my facts wrong or maybe there are some things that i am missing if anybody can enlight me on this i would be grateful. Also do you think that BM is better than MM spec for raiding because so far i do the highest dps in my guild as a MM but we only have one BM to compare stats with.

 

RikkiP

I guess it is a combination of a very good tank and some well timed vanishes. I started DPS almost instantly, even hitting it before he was in positons - MT was at about 8k threat. I think I then vanished when Odis was at around 60k threat, which was probably about 45 seconds into the fight. After that it was a gradual chase from me, catching him up just as my vanish came off CD. I think I was about 3k threat away from him when I could do it.

 

moowalk

I'm not sure this is the right place for this question.

Hunters have 30% extra damage from crits, and they also have multiple 'on-crit' abilities. So yes, the extra crit makes up the difference. Another minor advantage agi has is that it gets scaled with BoK

 

Stormtamer

Yeah i know that the first part of my post was out of place but i think the second part fits right in cause i dont have the wws stats from my guild to compare myself to another hunter with BM so i was wondering which is best.

But thanks for your answer that clears things up a bit for me i guess i have to get new enchants now. Hehe

 

RikkiP

Just saw that one of our guildmates did the rest of SSC. Here is the information from Lurker, possibly the fight I enjoy the most as it is fun to DPS on.

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...wcarys&s=6-365

I now do some crazy dipping in this fight as the water damage is so tiny, seal of light completely heals me in the middle of the water during spout and you lose zero DPS during it.

 

Thelyna

Our eighth HKM kill, fourth Gruul, and some Mag attempts: http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=3ub3dzbqzupqa

(Things we've gone over in #elitistjerks - our raid dps basically sucks across the board => shadow priest highest on Gruul? Our Mag problems are pretty much coming when Mag unbanishes himself, need more DPS and more disciplined/organised healing - we can get 3 to 3.5 channelers down before Mag pops.

 

Stormtamer

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=nl4ahdhbqvrd5 here is the link from our latest run the hunter in the run is our BM hunter but his dps is lower than my usual dps. I know that we are not a very advanced guild but i still need to ask these questions because i do want us to progress. If anybody has any comments on the run plz feel free to make them i need all the help i can get. Cheers!

 

Dranak

I'm looking for some help for why my guild's DPS is so terrible, and why our MT keeps getting squished down on Gruul. Here's the WWS from this weeks run (3rd night in GL for a fairly casual guild that also raids). http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=krnrocqxkjr3m&m Here's the previous week's run as well. http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=x46pc42us1lcg

Some things are obvious; our enh shaman knows he needs to get slower weapons, several of our mages are frost, and at least one of our rogues has an absolutely terrible spec for raiding. Unfortunately our guild philosophy is that we can encourage people to respec to more useful builds, but generally we can not force respecs; so we're stuck trying to get people to make the most of sub-optimal specs.

Our rogues... Zalviez is normally combat daggers and wasn't signed up for the run and it looks like he wound up coming as hemo spec. Heavy... I truly don't know what he's doing to pull 400ish DPS with an enh shaman. We have no feral druids/DPS warriors to group them with because we currently don't have any in the guild that raid. Generally we wind up with groups like BM hunter/marks hunter/enh shaman/rogue/rogue.

I really have no idea what our mages are doing, same for the locks. The mages in particular generally get shadowpriests and are tailors.

As for the tank deaths, several of them seem to be failure to keep shield block up (most noteably after shatters) followed by 8-10k crushing blows.

 

• Scheme

You don't even need SoL. Just pop CoS when you jump in, and even after it fades, the scalding water won't damage you.

 

Savos

Looking at your best attempt with 2.5 million damage at 5 min or so, your tank took a Hurtful Strike for 14k damage. Presumably after the Paladin off-tank was gibbed by a similar damage Hurtful.

Your tanking situation looks pretty dire. Having a Paladin on Off-tank duty for this fight is just about the worst position to put them in as it plays to none of their tanking strenghts and they don't have the health and armor to get rid of most of the damage done by Hurtful.

You might try switching your tanks around, Paladin MT, Warrior OT, but that isn't really ideal either. Best bet is to find a feral Druid with good tanking gear and have them off tank it.

Also it doesn't appear that you guys use Shamans very effectivly and set up groups to maximize damage. Looks like you have 2 resto shaman, neither of which were in the Main tank group (which is understandable as your tank has some absurd avoidance) or the paladin off-tank group. But they also either aren't in the Rogue group or aren't really dropping totems at all. I see a lot off odd things as well, where you have a Warlock in the same group as a TSA Hunter for some reason (?).

As far as rogues go, they have TERRIBLE hit percentages. 20% miss for both of them on normal melee. Massive loss of damage with that low of hit rating. Warlocks also are not understanding the capabilities of their class as well, you have 5 of them. Not a single Curse of Shadow? At least looking at a few other attempts where the debuff list isn't correctly populated. Mages are all Frost spec and have reasonably good hit ratings but are afraid to do damage it seems. Very very low DPS time. Might try asking one to switch to fire and see if the others get jealous of the damage and switch as well :P Hunters other than Dranak are clipping their auto-shot damage significantly. Plus, they look to be using non-optimal damage cycles at least from the little information I've read about on here.

You look to be threat capped across the board as well, as some of the higher threat generating things don't appear much in Golar's log. Holy cow, *ZERO* heroic strikes used?! He must be at max rage the entire fight. Tons of wasted threat.

Those are a few things that I see, though there are many more observations from the more analytical people around if they want to look through.

TL;DR: more threat from your tank, and perhaps send the folks doing damage over to the class specific forum for serious tips on improving damage. Kinda shooting yourself in the foot not having a feral or two as they bring a lot of utility in terms of exceptional off tanking and reasonably good damage when not in a tank role.

 

Dranak

We're currently hurting for consistent tanks. Our prot pally (Alorus) is a great tank, I agree that a prot pally is just about our worst option for a Gruul OT. We did discuss switching him to MT, but wound up calling it a night before doing so. Unfortunately our only quality feral druid is unable to make our raid times, we have a couple others that we may be able to get trained/geared enough to start raiding in the next month or so.

Group composition is something I intend to bring up with our raid leader before the next run (after I get some more feedback from here). We had a rogue/rogue/enh shaman/BM hunter/marks hunter group for HKM with the two resto shaman being given to the mage/lock groups. Our raid leader is for some reason *very* shy of melee on Gruul, and had the enh shaman get onto a lock and broke up the melee-(ish) group.

I intend on pushing people towards the appropriate theorycraft threads, but I expect it to be a case of leading a horse to water. One of my goals is to go to each class with at least a few basic suggestions and then push them towards further information. Maybe I should get the RL to let me bring my mage alt in half greens next week and out-DPS mains with it, that might get people's attention.

 

RikkiP

Oh yeh I know that, but the CloS cooldown is more then the spout one! I wondered what it would be like to actually stay in the water all the time :P Probably die when the tank is knocked back!

 

Mountie

I don't think tanks get knocked back more than a few times on Lurker really. And as a healer I usually just sit in the inner ring water the whole fight and leech up mana from SA and never take a hit during whirls(take the whirl hit but not bonus melee).

As long as you've got 9 or 10k hp there's no issue(easy for me to say as a healer with a shadow priest though)

 

Sagerix

Besides the other items that have been pointed out, talked to Zalviez about his poison choices. Anaesthetic? That is such an incredibly minor reduction to threat for a fairly significant DPS loss, and based on the rogue DPS I can't imagine they were actually close to pulling aggro to begin with. Additionally, both rogues are feinting like crazy. I'm operating under the assumption that nobody has KTM installed which might help them. If they truly do have to worry about pulling aggo with that kind of DPS, then your issues are obvious.

Edit: Just took another look. The only 2 rogues you have are both hemo in this run? Heavy seems to be hemo/daggers as well. Wow. I haven't checked armory to look at the builds but I think it's safe to say that the builds are a big part of it. Another part is the fact that Zalveiz never bothered to use a finisher other than Slice and Dice that entire time (I'm focusing on attempt 4 only right now). They need to have some idea of a rotation. Zalviez quite honestly appears to be doing nothing but spamming his hemo key unless SnD is down.

 

Pachwa

I am just wondering how your tank got crushed that many times in that small of fight since your DPS was so insane. He was crushed 6 times in 4 minutes, could be just getting unlucky with the hits because I doubt your tank is bad seeing where your guild position is. I will look for other Teron parses though to see what the average is on this, you guys have been the only other Teron WWS I have seen yet.

(For reference I have been crushed 3 times in the last 3 kills, 2 in one kill, 1 in another, and 0 times in the most recent kill.)

Edit: From what I can tell from others, the crushings seem to be a bit scattered from 0-6, guess it was just an unlucky run for the tank. If you beat the encounter though, it is not like it really matters.

 

Cos-

My first impression is that some of your dps is badly undergeared. Have you guys managed to kill the Prince yet? Just looking at a couple armory profiles I see some chess loot and an aran piece but no t4 helms.
Your rogue Heavyhitter actually wanted you to fail. I can't figure out any other way to say it. I havent met a rogue dumb enough to raid with a hemo daggers build. Casual is all well and good but holy shit. Spec aside just poor gear and anesthetic poison is something no one needs to even train.

On your best attempt (2.5 mil) Zalviez used feint 15(?) times while creeping by at 473 dps? Heavyhitter used it 9 times at 425 dps? That's agro control like an old lady doing 15 mph on the freeway.



Im probably coming off overly harsh/judgemental but seeing hemo daggers makes my blood boil. If this had happened at a gruul I was at Id have sent the rogue back to town to respec and or just replaced them with the first dps I could find in the lfg channel looking for a mana tombs group.

 

Dranak

Most of our raid is using KTM/Omen, but I do know that Zalviez was complaining that he ate a hateful on one of our first Gruul attempts (probably a side effect of having a pally OT), which probably explains some of the feinting. I actually was surprised to see him using hemo as he's generally combat daggers and able to mostly keep up with me.

Actually, looking at the log he appears to be consistently eating hurtful strikes while our OT is still up. That needs to be addressed then.

 

Cos-

Your MT and OT are putting out some pretty sad dps (MT at 171 with 0 Heroic Strikes). I can actually now almost believe 473 dps in melee range was causing issues. What kind of threat per sec is Golar putting out?

 

Dranak

We need to fix having a prot pally OTing Gruul because it turns out that even with spamming threat reduction our rogues were managing to eat Hurtfuls. If nothing else, we can try having the pally MT and the warrior OT. It can't give us much worse results.

Our Kara progression isn't great. We have one group farming it with a second group that I do not believe has downed Prince yet. I realize we're at the low end of the gear spectrum for GL, but given decent raid formation and people that wake the hell up it should still be doable.

 

Dranak

Honestly, I haven't been watching. As a hunter, I hardly ever look at my threat meter past the first 60 seconds of a fight. I do know that our previous MTs from pre-TBC raiding have all left or gone inactive, and our newer crop of tanks may not have things fully figured out yet.

 

tedv

Just to clarify why this is so bad, Hemo is the one rogue ability that does not have its attack power bonus normalized. Instant hit attacks like Sinister Strike have attack power add to their DPS as if the weapon had speed 2.4 (except daggers which have base speed 1.8). But for hemo, it adds using the normal weapon speed. So hemo attacks with a slow sword will hit for almost twice as much as an average dagger.

 

Dranak

I realize that, but thanks for taking the time to go into detail.

 

sovelis41

It depends on the slot, but in general, I prefer +agi to +ap in some slots simply because it scales nicely with kings, and that overcomes the difference in ap. Examples: Relentless Earthstorm Diamond over swift skyfire, 15agi to gloves instead of 26ap. From what I've seen, Savagery or 35agi is both a matter of personal preference, spec, and current stats when choosing that enchant. Neither is a wrong answer though, in my opinion.