I'd like to hear more on this. I don't know if my spec is among those you looked at. For instance, I am the Malediction lock (we run with 3-4 locks, 2-3 SP, and 2-4 arcane mages typically), so there is no point in taking Imp CoA because I never use it. Imp Drain Life is pretty much pointless since using DL is a dps nerf over SB. I may experiment going back to UA to see how it does in BT , but when we were learning SSC and TKK my dps in general went up noticably as soon as I switched to Ruin. Before taking ruin yes, I did higher DPS on lurker but not on most other fights. When I look at our WWS, the reason I'm usually lower than the other locks is volume of casts and to a lesser extent DOT uptime. Usually the biggest difference in overall dmg is # of SB's (never used Quartz before the last month or so, still adjusting to not spamming).

As far as suppression with 14% hit, I had like 10% hit until the last couple weeks, I was at 11% roughly a week ago. I suppose its a little pointless now, but I have to take points somewhere to get up the tree and like I said why waste them in imp CoA for instance when I don't use it outside of solo and pvp. I suppose on trash pulls with multiple mobs I could get use out of it, but WWS (which we are discussing here) is usually all about boss fights and I don't have DPS issues on trash whatsoever.

I'm more interested in thoughts about positioning, usage of DP and LT, etc to improve my volume of casts. I generally still screw up one or two SB's a fight with Quartz, but that isn't making all the difference either.

If you have so many dot classes, I would really think ruin is better just because you'll need 1 less debuff slot.

They need new specs.

SM/Ruin = old and busted
UA/DR or DS/S&F = sexy

Send them over to the [Warlock] how do you do high DPS? thread for more warlocky goodness.

The biggest problem is just that UA is more DPS than Ruin unless you have insane amounts of crit (like >50%, I forget the exact number. I can do a search if you want to see the math).

Getting a big boost to hit rating recently would explain the suppression. Basically you can take them out and put them in other talents that aren't super amazing, but atm they are doing absolutely nothing. If your other locks spec to destruction you can put them into SE. If they want to stay afflcition you can put them into Fel Concentration or iHoT or something (not great for raiding, but better than going to waste).

Basically as a raiding warlock you should have either UA, S&F, or Felguard (only if you have 2/5 T5 and/or voidstar too though) to get the most out of your spec. Take a look at the warlock dps thread I linked about and read some of the discussion in there. It gets a little repetitious so you can either skim or use the search feature to find interesting/relevant info.

This is a bit off topic, but wouldn't it be awesome to have TPS data for the tanking warriors/druids? I wish I could compare our tanks performance to others.

BTW, Teron Gorefiend without shaman healer is apparently very hard. Here is WWS from that fight. DPS all did very well, with mages being supplied by our Elemental Shaman while Melee only having LOP and no WF.

Our guild is gearing up to move to 25 mans as we've been successfully running two Karazhan groups for a while now. We decided to take a look at WWS to get a better idea of where we stand.

Here's our two raids from last night. Both cleared Shade, Prince, and Netherspite. First mine:

Wow Web Stats

Very dissapointed with our DPS. Looking mostly at the Prince fight since we have the most time to just blast away at him there. I notice a few problems already like both warlocks using CoA for some reason. And only having 9 people

And the other group:

Wow Web Stats

Same poor DPS. They flasked for the Prince kill which is something we don't normally do in Karazhan.

I look at other guilds Prince logs and see people pushing and exceeding 1000 DPS. I can assume some of them are better geared than us (though most of our top DPS is pretty well geared considering our progression), and as I mentioned, we don't do much in the way of consumables for Karazhan. But even considering all that I just dont see anything that could account for 30-50% DPS deficits, even ignoring some of our lesser geared/experienced people that were there.

What Snape said, and you should all try to break 700 DPS on that fight at least before stepping into Gruul's

I'm logged out in some stamina gear anyways, but I had ~900 +dmg (More like 950 now that I got mindblase off Prince) to arcane and around 22% crit with a 61/0/0 build (No 2x T5, obviously). My standard rotation is 2-3xAB, AM (unless I get a clearcast, then I use AM again). It's entirely possible I'm deviating or falling out of my rotation when I shouldn't be. I'll read through the logs and watch it more carefully.

I'll consider 10/48/3 but I'd much prefer to work on improving my arcane DPS before switching. I'm reading [Mage] How Can Arcane Damage Work? and the other threads Goggles linked halfway down for now.

I really appreciate the feedback, nice or not, we're a quite a ways off where I want us to be.

You're absolutely right. I had a memory leak where I forgot that the reason you have 91 "hits" for AM is because it has 5 ticks, not because you cast it so much more often. However, I really really think it's still a spec/gear issue. If you insist on Arcane (which honestly is still tomfoolery at that gear level), then rack up +dmg, +crit gems, and basically ignore +hit.

Doh, maybe a link would help -_-

WWS

All your warlocks put up CoA? Strange as you have 4 warlocks, 2 SP and 2 mages and all your warlocks are using CoA. You'll get much better DPS out of your raid if you assign CoE/CoS to your warlocks.

++EDIT++ On that thought, CoA on lurker adds only? Im not sure has WWS doesn't show but, if thats what is being used then ignore my comment.

As for your spec, you really should be concentrating on using shadowbolt and a curse, immolate and corruption(while both giving a slight boost to your personal dps) aren't worth the time to cast, when you are destro spec'd with ISB. The more ISB uptime you have the more damage your SP and other warlocks will be doing.

Check this thread for more info:
Warlock DPS Thread

@Andeh-N

I'm fury DPS, so ill just comment on Rasdrizzle.

Lurker is a fury warrior's dream fight frankly, and i am almost ALWAYS top DPS, or close to it....that said, you demolished everyone on the WWS there, even my best.

During the submerge phase i tank one of the platforms, blow all my cool-downs and cleave the hell out of the adds.

I also like to pop blood rage and stand in whirl...it's an instant full rage bar. (If your healers are good anyways...and it won't result in my death). His gear is similar, hell, almost IDENTICAL to mine, and i manage over 100 dps more without a single pot, flask or food buff. His DPS time was also rather low being 63%...that should be 85%+.

Also, 3 prot warriors is over kill IMO. We run 2 prot, 1 feral and 2 DPS warriors...ideally i'd like to switch the other DPS warrior for another feral druid, but i can't find one to recruit anywhere.

I'm not entirely sure what is up with WWS, but yeah CoS is used by a Warlock with 3/3 Malediction, and CoE is up also.

Thanks for the advice about Immolate and Corruption, I'll just try straight nuking and keeping CoA up next raid!

I'll let Rasdrizzle know about what you said, hopefully it'll boost his DPS something nasty next time we do Lurker; as for the Prot Warriors, we lack Feral Druids full stop and beggars can't be choosers sadly

Thanks for the input guys, and if anyone can provide some insight as to how the Mages can get that much more out of their gear, it would be greatly appreciated

Just to eliminate confusion, Korval and I are officers in the same guild just looking for advice on how to improve our raid's dps. We both really appreciate feedback like this from people who can point out the specifics of certain players/classes.

I have a feeling our dps problems are all over the place. Some people are using PVP specs, some people are drastiaclly undergeared, and some people are using poor spell/skill rotations (or a combination of all 3). I understand that we're going to have more work gearing up dps and teaching them appropriate skill rotations, but what blows my mind is how far off our target we really are. You mentioned 16 DPS classes @ 500 sustained dps resulting in a borderline Gruul kill with about 15 growths. As our WWS shows, most people are around 400 dps, or barely breaking 500.

Is it unreasonable for us to expect reasonably geared 70s (lvl 70 blues and a couple epics, gemmed appropriately and enchanted gear) to be breaking 500 dps? Our top players are only putting out close to 600, and they're full kara/crafted epics. I feel like every single player is around 100-200 dps lower than they should be. Again, I might be expecting too much, or we might have a lot more work to do, but any advice and suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Its reasonable to expect it, but not if your guys are coming in with PvP specs. The expectation of all your guys hitting 500 DPS is partly based on raid synergy of talents and debuffs - if your guys aren't taking improved debuffs/buffs for PvE then you won't see results you want.

Remember that you'll add between 100-200 DPS for each melee by putting a shaman in their group for Windfury. (200 if he's Enhance)

As a frank comparison, about 95% of DPS is player competency. I have a pet project where I leveled a 70 Blood Elf Mage on a different server from my Human. He is Frost, hit 70 about a week ago, and only has done about 3 level 70 instances - netting 0 pieces of new gear (well, maybe 1). And he's a non-Tailor. So I'm basically rocking all quest rewards - but I still do just under 500 DPS in any boss encounter (more than 500 if I WE -> Cold Snap -> WE, but I often forget to). Familiarity with the class (even with a less optimal spec / gear) is probably the #1 prescription for better damage output.

First wws-
Rogue stuff: Your rogue went 6 minutes without using adrenaline rush or bladeflurry more then once. (2 and 4 times possible respectively) 21/35/5 is a piss poor spec. Should take combat potency if he really wants to be combat dagger. He makes some weak socket choices.

Second wws-
Rogue stuff: Ketamine mixes hemorrage and sinister strike. That's an enormous no no. She has no points in imp ss even, 45 energy ss is by no means a good thing to use. 17% white miss rate from her pvp build isnt helping. Cloak is awful, not rogue loot. Should put her delicate green poncho back on etc. Logged out in what I hope is a gear set up only for pvp. Overall gear quality looks lowish.

It's not unreasonable, and people have already touched on things that can help improve raid DPS. Having a single shadow priest who knows what they're doing will not only give you a solid DPS class, but Warlocks will see a huge jump in damage, and mages will see a nice jump from Misery. Put an Ele shammy in a group with an Spriest and 2 mages + another spell damage class and you've got a very solid boost to all their DPS.

Likewise, an enhancement shaman in a group with 2-3 rogues (possibly 2 rogues/feral druid, all depends on what you have available) and a DPS warrior is a stacked melee DPS group. Windfury/SoE will up AP and give extra MH attacks (if the two rogues I previously touched on were combat, you'll find a huge synergy between sword spec/windfury), while the Shaman should be able to keep Unleashed Rage (10% increased AP) up a solid amount of the time. The optional feral druid will do 2 very nice things, but he only needs to be grouped for one. Imp LotP is nice for the 5% crit increase, and the heal on crit. The second huge part of his contribution will be mangle, which will greatly increase the efficiency of rupture (a staple in any combat cycle, unless the boss is bleed immune).

Also, looking at your third rogue (Waitforme), his spec is also a little backwards (assuming he's going for combat daggers). 15/41/5 is the spec you want to use, as opposed to 21/35/5. He's missing out on combat potency and 10% increased backstab damage (with a built in modifier making your finishers undodgeable). To increase raid DPS he should pull all points from Imp Evisc and Murder, and 2 out of Lethality. With those points, he should pick up 5/5 combat potency and 1/1 Surprise Attacks.

His gear/gem choices are also pretty bad. He's running a 31.24% crit rate, and an abysmal 162 hit rating. With Kara gear, he should easily be over 200 (I was around 220 before stepping foot in Kara). Hit rating is the bread and butter of a combat build (so long as you don't completely gimp your other stats), as auto attack (white damage) counts for 60%+ of total damage done, which means you want your white attacks to hit as much as possible. Hit will also increase the number of combat potency procs (offhand hits = 20% chance to generate 15 energy), which is a raw DPS increase (more energy for specials, which means more combo points, which means more finishers).

The unfortunate situation for rogues is that the only thing we bring to a raid is insane single target DPS (and interrupts, but other classes bring this as well, and it isn't applicable on all fights). If they aren't speccing for max raid DPS, you're going to have a hell of a time making the transition to 25 mans, as after Maulgar, 4 of the next 5 fights have some kind of built in DPS race (Gruul growths too high and he 1 shots tank/OT, Mag killing the summoners, Void Reaver has a 10 minute enrage, Hydross has a 10 minute enrage).

Prs:
Needs to pick up +hit. His miss rate on his fire spells was much to high at ~8%. +hit is king for boss fights. (Even on lurker where you are spending 40% of your dps on level 72 adds)

He should also look at decreasing the number of scorches per fireball. Fireball is the main nuke at 10/48/3 and scorch is reserved for mana problems and debuff application. Since he has a shadow priest, I would hope he isn't having mana problems.

3 Pyroblasts? Perhaps waiting for aggro establishment on an add before starting dps or something? Anyway as cookie cutter fire spec, pyroblast usually doesn't make the rotation. (Much better dps/dpm options. i.e. Scorches on adds while establishing aggro so that when aggro is established you have imp scorch up.)

Gems: If you are going to break the gem bonus, +9 dmg gems are generally prefered over 4crit/5dmg. (Consider these spots for dmg/hit gems?)

Merenwen:
Pick up 3/3 imp scorch for the sake of Prs's sanity and dps. (pvp talents choosen over it)
+hit looks decent.
Should probably scorch more and fireblast less. Fireblast is fairly nice dps, but the mana cost is huge and is usually better spent on fireballs. (not always possible or preferred for adds)
I think he was hurting for mana. No shadow priest and heavy fireblast leads to that situation quicker than we would like.


I don't know what constitutes a spot in the shaman/shadow priest group for your guild, but Merenewen was hurting a bit for not having a spot. Might want to figure out who is in it and if there is a spot for him. Fire mages certainly hurt without the support of a shadow priest.

Nyctermon needs to use Shred. He used all Mangles. He last logged out in what appears to be tanking gear, I'm assuming he has a separate DPS set that he used for this fight.

Nyctermon also used Ferocious Bite three times on the kill. This should only be one, or at most two if he thought the fight was going to end sooner. Fortunately he knows to use Rip, he just needs to use it more. He had 48 ticks (96 seconds worth) over a 7 minute (420s) fight. I'd aim for higher Rip uptime. This seems particularly bad considering that he stayed in for 8 shadow nova's so there is little excuse for Rip downtime.

On other attempts where you didn't get close to killing the Prince he was using FB and no Shred. Make him take FB off his bar for this fight. He may also want to use Faerie Fire on the fight to help the melee DPS.

I'd like to see the WWS to back it up. I've been through the theorycraft of it all, but I look at WWS logs and its seems like our "old and busted" spec locks are doing significantly better than most UA locks in BT and Hyjal. I haven't spent a ton of time digging in WWS logs but when I scan a lot of the top overall raid dps logs it seems like I am on par with a lot of the UA locks in other guilds and I'm well below our other two 2 SM/ruin locks typically and have generally been below our lock who until this week was spec'd Demo for tanking fights. I'm looking for insight, not trying to argue, its just been my experience in TBC that ruin improves dps significantly and I think it deserves discussion. There are certainly some mobile fights like Supremus that lend themselves to full affliction, but not that many.

Rotten, I wouldn't necessarily worry yourself over it. I know and the rest of us in Fusion know that our warlocks are pretty amazing. Everyone has their own opinion but WWS logs don't lie and unless the other gent can post some backup to his post saying that you all need to "L2P" basically, I'd wager it safe to say you win at the Internet on this one.