Devastation in Destruction tree is probably the first place to hit. Destructive reach is good too for threat reduction and range.

In affliction there isn't really anything great, you can put them in soul siphon or fel concentration, which isn't great, but is better than the current talents which give nothing.

Darkrenown:
I'll comment on your rogues because thats the class I can comment on the best.

Griktor: I assume he logged off in his pvp gear, so I can't comment on gear, but given that he missed 22% of his melee attacks he needs more hit. If he really wants to spec maces and run with a pvp build his damage will be below a pve rogue, but his dps is just too low. Also, he gained the "valor" buff twice, which I believe comes from the Ogrilla revered trinket. This is not a terrible trinket, but abacus of violent odds, romeo's poison vial, dragonspine trophy, and bloodlust brooch are all superior.

Sypr: His gear is rather poor for the level of progression for the guild, but that really isn't his fault. In general he needs more hit (get the fel leather boots, they're awesome), so have him re-gem his gear with + 8 hit. Also, his spec is very decent, but the emerald ripper offhand is a bad choice. Have him get Latro's sword from Black Morass (since he's sword spec) and watch his dps jump up.

In general both of your rogues have abnormally high miss rates for their level of hit, and this is due to dodges/parries which means they're not getting behind their target. Those parries also cause nasty extra damage to tanks, so make sure they're aware of positioning. Furthermore, their dps is just plain low mainly because their presence is so low would be my guess. Looking at other recent logs (here's an ej log from this fight: Wow Web Stats) you'll notice that melee really shouldn't be getting arcane orbs, so this could be a positioning issue.

Well Yen only pulled after a tank (Istompugood) died, but yes, we have told him to watch his threat.

Rogues should have been avoiding pounding, but we'll have more healers on melee next time.

What group is your resto shaman in? He cast lesser healing wave way more than he should, chain heal is just godly on that fight for the melee. Put him along with a feral druid in a group with your 2 rogues(so the group is like this 2 rogues, 1 druid, 1 shaman and fury warrior). This way your melee get windfury and ILoTP. With ILoTP and Chain Heal your melee should be able to keep in melee with void reaver the whole fight so they can do more DPS, rather than running out and first aid(which killed DPS).

Thanks for the comments. I did think Sy's OH was odd for swordspec, but I didn't mention it to him as I've never played a rogue.

About misses, I'm rather confused about them in WWS. For example, I'm using a 2h, so i should only need 8.6% hit to never miss auto attacks (and of course, specials). Currently I have + 9% because I was DW untill recently and I've not found gear to replace all my +hit stuff. I also have +9 weapon skill due to racials and talents. Yet WWS says I'm missing 5.8% autos and 7% MSs:
darkrenown - WWS

The tank group grabbed him for WF to build more aggro, which I thought was reasonable due to the knockbacks and us being ahead of the enrage timer, while the mages took the ele shammy. The plan was to have a 3rd shammy for melee WF, but he was late for that raid.
Edit: Although if I was setting up out melee WF group it would have been: MS warrior(Me), Fury warrior, shaman, sword rogue, then either a druid for ILotP or another rogue.

Ahh, well that makes more sense, I'm just slacking on positioning then. Thanks.

Wow Web Stats

This is the WWS from my guild's run of Karazhan last week, well Aran through Prince with an offhand Nightbane attempt. We have just started rerunning Karazhan again and we have half veterans and half new people, just seeing any suggestions on how we can improve raid DPS.

The parries are killing you; as stated a million times in this thread, parries decrease the boss's next swing time by 40%, making crushing blows an inevitability.

All of your rogues have serious issues - they lack hit rating (tons of misses), they are using Evis instead of Rupture (lower finisher damage), and they are responsible for a ton of parries. This is a shame, because they are getting Windfury too. With their gear, they should be pushing 800+ DPS, but instead they are underperforming and indirectly killing your MT.

This is compounded by the fact that you're taking four of them in there, and your casters are doing so poorly that their DPS seems good in comparison.

Just looking at some of their gear, they need to be replacing their +crit gems with +hit gems.

Basically, you need to have a talk with them about (1) raising hit rating, (2) attacking from behind, and (3) using better cycles (1s/5r or 3s/5r for combat swords is usually good depending on gear).

Might be based on your guild makeup but you really don't have as many "focused" dps classes as you should. MS warriors and feral druids aren't the best fill in for that, MS is really only a PvP spec and feral druids aren't the best choice for solid DPS, they are good for MT and OT with the occasional DPS. Seeing as you already have the Pally as an OT the druid won't fit in well.

To utilize the enhancement shammy's DPS and group buffs the best you would want rogues and or fury warriors.

The final comment I think I can make is that having 3 somewhat dedicated healers is a little too many. Should only really need 2 with one or two other classes to jump in if needed, that way you would have another slot for a player focused on DPS mainly.

So how did you(as a MS warrior) get bloodlust but, no windfury? Ive always wondered about who to give windfury. Yes MS warriors gain alot from windfury but, does that justify the replacement of a rogue in a WF group?

That doesn't answer the question. When taking a 2h warrior for DPS, yes they gain alot from windfury but, is that gain superior to the damage a rogue will be putting out with windfury? Thats all I want to know, not just a "yes, duh" but, actually how much given that they don't need a MS warrior in a melee group for BS(fury warrior) so why keep the rogues DPS down if the gain from windfury for a 2h is less than that gain from a rogue or fury warrior?

It does have to do with Guild makeup, we are still pretty small.

Actually the Paladin, myself, is the MT. Our druid is there because we honestly don't have another DPS class to fill it with, but I am concerned about the warrior. It has been my thought as well that we could get by with only two healers possibly.

Our Hunters have very high DPS compared to our other classes, is this normal?

MS warriors have Blood Frenzy, which boosts all melee DPS in your raid by 4%. It's worth bringing one along.

Edit: Er meant to add that if you have one along anyways, yes they'll gain more DPS from windfury than rogues will even if they'll end up doing less overall.

The WF gains for warriors is >> gains for rogues.

If you want the maths for it check out [Warrior] Future of a DPS Warrior or one of the various shammy or rogue threads.

Yes but, thats physical damage, so you could include a MS warrior in a hunter group and get the 4% + ferocious inspiration buff while leaving the rogues in the WF group with the chain heals and ILoTP for heals.

So looking at there best try it shows that one rogue died early(easily fixed with the addition of chain heals+ILoTP) while the other was forced to step out and bandage and so was only DPSing 72% of the time and still did 20k more damage than the MS warrior(who had 86% presence of the fight).

So given this information, how can it be justified to drop a rogue from WF group for a class that is going to do less damage over-all?

++EDIT++ Also, the MS warrior recieved bloodlust and the rogue did not.

Our last gruuls kill, i notcied i missed 5.8% of my steadies during that fight with 7.1% to hit at that time.. very odd.

Wow Web Stats

Any feedback is much appreciated!

Yes it is a boost to their DPS but, is it a boost to over-all raid DPS if that rogue can do more DPS? The melee group already has a fury warrior for BS(maybe imp-bs).

Its a decision on over-all raid DPS vs personal DPS. And I see it as if the rogue can do more DPS than the warrior, why should the warrior get favored over the rogue? Especially with these first kills.

Read the third sentence in the first paragraph of my post #1769.

edit: I'll even quote it
And again if you want the math behind it go read one of the many DPS warrior or shamen threads.

While searching wws threads looking for ways to optimize dps on a few fights that currently are not just roll up and loot for my guild Ive come across a few interesting things. First off, at high end dps just gets insane-

WWS report

This report is currently the top dps for solarian logged on the wws site. As a rogue it prompted the question of rupture over eviscerate. I can assume that the armor difference is what primarily made the decision on this fight where furi's eviscerate dmg is quite high. but the pattern continues for the other fights as well, on mobs that I very fully believed that rupture was vastly better suited for, such as morogrim.

I would argue and say that mathematically rupture is better and he should L2P but quite honestly someone pushing out 500 more dps than my best on a fight is completely justified in telling me to go to hell :] Id like to believe that most of that was simply him not going on priests for kick/stun duty, but my gut feeling leads me to believe otherwise.

Regrettably the rogue in question was logged out in pvp gear so I couldnt get all misty eyed over the profile.

Maybe I just havent done my homework on the boss strat but our rogues have always been on priest interrupt duty for this fight. Perhaps thats part of the reason its currently taking us as many as 4 aoe waves.

I believe the numbers are more like 400 DPS for a MS Warrior, and 200 DPS for Combat Rogues and Fury Warriors, when grouped with an Enhancement Shaman. These are the numbers that have been quoted several times by folks like Malan, and are discussed at length in the Enhancement Shaman thread.

A Resto Shaman will give slightly less than that, but it's still absolutely huge for MS Warriors in particular. Windfury with a 2H weapon is just simply awesome, and your Rogues need a Warrior and a Shaman for sure.

The thing is it isnt better for overall dps to deprive the 2h warrior of WF. Speaking incredibly generally of course, a 2h warrior will see gains upwards of 300dps pretty easily, whereas a rogue doesnt see the same increase due to WF, partially attributed to lack of poison on the MH.

What you're thinking is correct, the MS warrior doesnt do nearly as much damage as a geared combat rogue, but it is a bigger boost to the raid to bring him from 700 to 1000 dps than it is to bring the rogue from 1100 dps to 1300. In kara for example one of our normal prot tanks was specced arms for pvp and was anecdotally reporting almost a 300 dps gain on certain fights simply due to WF, and grudgingly I have to admit he didnt do all that bad even for his gladiator gear.