On your Rogues:

In general, they should be grouped with a shaman (preferred enhancement) whose job it is to make sure they have Windfury and SoE at all times. A warrior for battleshout, and depending on the makeup, a feral druid for LotP would round this group out. With 3 rogues, drop the druid, with 2 rogues, put the druid in the group. None of your rogues used vanish at all, and on an aggro sensitive fight, that's just horrible. It seems they might have been using anesthetic poison to try and keep aggro low, which is just a bad idea altogether. Have your rogues vanish in a comfortable zone. It make take a few tries to find this zone, but 70% is usually a safe bet (they can, however, do it earlier/later if they are watching threat meters). If they vanish at that point, they should have no trouble at all taking hurtful strikes, unless the offtank dies.

Morgania: She shiv'd 20 times. There is absolutely no reason at all to shiv, ever, as a combat build. Anesthetic poison has proven to be virtually useless regardless of the fight. With a shaman, they should be using deadly OH and keeping the MH open for windfury. Her miss rate is also abysmal. 27% miss rate (subtract 5% dodge) is awful for any build, but especially combat. They should be aiming for a bare minimum 200 hit rating (250 is painfully easy when you're about half geared up from Kara). Eviscerate and Envenom are finishers only mutilate builds should use, unless of course you told your rogues to abstain from rupture use because of a debuff heavy raid (although, it looks like you have a feral druid, which means 30% more bleed damage from their ruptures, and there should be no reason to not use rupture). Socketing could use work (all gems are green quality, should probably gem for hit rating since it's that low). Make sure she is in the shaman group, and is getting windfury (swords/fists get a greater benefit from windfury than daggers). Talents are a bit wonky for PvE. She has deflection and riposte, which are strictly PvP. Not only that, but the use of these talents made her neglect Weapon Expertise, which is a very highly regarded raiding talent. It essentially gives you more hit (technically lowers your hit rating cap to 308 from 324), but it also pushes a % of dodges and parries off the table. Whatever she does, this talent is huge for raiding. If she is insistent on keeping riposte, have her take the points out of vitality, as she'll see a bigger DPS increase from WE than that talent.

Janka: Stats look a lot better, near the 200 hit rating mark. Still sporting some green quality gems, but not as many. I noticed Jank was in the shaman group but received no windfury. Fix this, and make sure your other rogues are also in that group. 1 rogue benefitting from Windfury > 1 hunter giving the DPS group trueshot. Also used anesthetic poison. Drop this poison, instant is better, and deadly is loads better. Try to get her into using a 3s/5s/5r rotation. Shouldn't be using Eviscerate unless it is a bleed immune boss, or you're worried about your 40 debuff limit. Used sinister strike more than backstab. Shouldn't happen...even with heavy cave-ins on the melee group, you can position yourself to be able to backstab Gruul (and avoid parries). Other than that, looks good (get windfury, deadly OH poison, and an snd/rupture cycle going). Talent wise she has a few big red flags. First and foremost, she put points in MoD instead of Opportunity. Fix that, as opportunity helps combat daggers big time. She also has points in aggression, but she should really never be using SS or eviscerate, unless she picked that up for grinding with a sword/fist (they are technically filler points).

Seriss: DPS was a lot better than the other two. Spec could be slightly improved for PvE DPS (taking the 7 out of sub and finishing off Combat talents...dual wield spec > opportunity in a mutilate build). Sporting green gems still, and not totally itemizing correctly. Mithril Chain of Heroism isn't very good for rogues at all, they're better off with a Worgen Claw Necklace from Attumen, or the Choker of Vile Intent from heroic badges. I'm guessing by the early death, that she was either riding the OT tail and the OT died, she didn't watch her aggro, or she ran into melee range before the OT was set back into melee range. Looking at it, any of the people who were potentially offtanks outlived her, which means your OT wasn't getting back to melee range fast, or Seriss was not watching her threat as compared to the OT. An easily fixable solution, and had Seriss lived towards the end of the fight, you would've put a significantly bigger dent in him. Upon further inspection, it would seem Seriss did not watch aggro. Living 60% through a 5 minute attempt means she was DPSing for more than two and a half minutes without using vanish. This is awful, and a mistake that can easily be remedied. Vanish should be used proactively to wipe aggro and keep your rogues safe.

This is a report from our last Morogrim kill. I'm rather unsure about our rogues, are they doing good or is there quite the room for improvement here?

They lack shaman to enhance their dps which will do quite a bit for them. 'Know the feeling there though, we didn't have a shaman until Leotheras back when SSC was new.

I agree with the rest of your points, but I could see a reason to shiv with a combat build (Granted, I'm daggers, not fists, so excess CP and Energy are harder to come by. If you look at the anonymous WWS I posted earlier in the thread, you'll see that I had sinister strikes a surprising number of times given being dagger spec.

This was always right before a shatter, to burn off my energy and get a few extra CPs so that I could, hopefully, start my cycle immediately following the shatter from a fairly decent point, rather than attempting to restart with one remaining CP. I would Rupture with whatever was left, then spam SS until I got punted.

Shiv would be slightly better for CP gain (though, for a fist-spec rogue, there's absolutely no point given the huge increase in damage using sinister strike for 40 energy vs. shiv for 36 with a 2.7 mainhand).

Another thing is that with WWS, if you click over the actual numbers for an attack, it shows the breakdown of hits/misses/dodges/parries. In her case, (looking at the final Gruul attempts), she had 17% miss-rate, with 11 parries and 14 dodges. For a guild just starting Gruul, and given that the tank was taking hits of up to 10007 damage, and obvious will be taking bigger later in the fight, those parries can prove disastrous, assuming your tank is similarly geared to ours with about 20.2k HP fully buffed.

Next, while I was looking at your tank: Our MT has never been low on Rage during the Gruul encounter, and used Heroic Strike to great advantage. Granted that the offtank finds himself unable to do so because of rage issues (electing instead to, probably, devastate spam or revenge if he gets lucky on a hurtful), I'm confused as to why your MT didn't use HS once during the course of the fight, something that would probably increase his threat gen a good deal. Your offtank on the other hand was using heroic strike, something that surprises me given the rage limitations on the encounter compared with the MT. Using a Feral Druid offtank is supposedly much better, but my guild, for example, can't really justify leaving out our second prot warrior, or bringing him as DPS, so we use him as the offtank because our ferals do deent lawlkitty work.

Try bringing an eighth healer or an SPriest for some light group healing and mana regen. Not only will your warlock DPS shoot through the roof, but the amount of raid healing needed will drop significantly, and you'll have better healer sustainability.

Finally: re: Mages. Pyroblast is BAD. Tell them to spec out of it or they're not going to get a raid invite. I guarantee their DPS will go up by at least 50%, because those 6k crits: A. don't happen that damned often, and B. are after a 6 second cast, on a fight that requires some maneuverability. Scorch to 5, then 8-9x fireball, 1x scorch and their DPS will go through the roof, assuming they don't get resisted every other cast.

You've got this guy, gear-wise. Just need to work out some 'oops'es with talent specs, aggro, and rotations, and you'll get some nice loot.

Ground Slam + Shatter are not on hard coded timers. So you cant necessary know exactly when the next one will occur. So unless you are saying to do the above in the 1-2 seconds from when the Ground Slam cast bar appears to the knock back effect actually hits I think ignoring shiv and sticking with normal dps rotations would be best.

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=nwikdgaqvrnqe

There is the WWS logs of our latest gruul attempt. Now my first question is with my data gathering set to 200, and no other people merging info with me (first wws not sure how that works) could I be missing alot of info?

Some of the rogues and the other hunter make me very sad if i am not missing info and I will need to talk to atleast the hunter. He is MM spec and using a cat, while not maintaing it at all. It dies really early in the fight all the times wich is a big dps loss.

Furhtermore i know we can fix out group setups, im not sure how the groups were for this one i posted, but in other attempts we had a warlock,3 hunter rogue group, and another feral druid (dps) 2 locks 2 pally group.

Words can't describe how bad this rogue Luky is.
Someone has to talk to the kid. His spec is awful even for Shadowstep (no serratet blades e.g) and his gear is on par with his spec. <20% crit on lvl 70, vindicator in offhand, blackhands breadth (someone please tell him about the upgrade from HFP). I just don't know what to say.

Well, the WWS parse shows shiv as his only combo point builder, so it seems he's worked out some sort of zany approach which produces less damage than an (untalented) sinister strike, for more energy. Oh and he's only using deadly poison, pretty much eliminating any advantage from shiv's guaranteed poison application.

As a hunter you should clearly see whats wrong with the hunter fighting with the mt on the meters. I havent seen parses missing partial results, its usually missing players entirely.

about the hunter in question, 50 odd ticks of serpent sting.
66 autoshots, 9 arcane shots, 2 multishots 1 steadyshot.

is he just pressing buttons hoping somethings comes out of it ?

educate him on the basic shotrotation, and double his dps.

He is. If I have 60 energy, I'll do a quick backstab as I'm in the air. If not, I'll spam my shiv key since it's the lowest energy cost ability I have that generates a CP.

ok, thanks people. So if it's not WWS missing their actions due to range, i need to talk to some people.


~edit short of typing in their names to armory, does WWS have a spot to click that links to armory? Also, it seems dio died really early, the rogue fighting with the MT, tankdreen.

~edit 2 Never mind on the armory, i see it now.

Hi guys, been running into some DPS problems with my guild, and was hoping to garner some advice. Other then a few obvious underperformers that will be dealt with, our overall raid dps still seems quite low.

Wow Web Stats

Thanks in advance for all of your help!

Willstabu has some amazingly bad time on target. 167 melee hits (even considering his white miss rate) with daggers tells me he was either a) letting slice and dice fall constantly so much so that the majority of the fight was spent without it up or he was rarely actually attacking Gruul. Is he dancing in and out of melee range? or he simply wasnt attacking and his dps time is only that high because he had dp or rupture ticking.

Drezl has some really weird dps time (79% of presence) considering he never bandaged or really took an extreme amount of cave in damage. Low swings here too...



Oh and in the interest of actually helping you:
Put your feral and your shaman with the rogues for reasons covered somewhere like 25 times in this thread. If Willstabu was actually with the shaman he managed to miss heroism somehow and he needs to stop putting deadly poison on both his daggers (Im going to ignore the fact that hes mutilate and still has backstab on his hotbar too, call that a leftover mistake or something.)

Repeatedly edited because I can't do simple math today!

Rabbits was not using his any special attacks with his pet, and missed a large number of Steady shots. He also did not use a single mana potion.

Alwaysbaked didn't even use his pet, and also used no mana potions. He did appear to use two haste potions though. He would have been able to pull more with the mana pots.

This is a parse from our second Gruul kill, Wow Web Stats

It took us 8 goes to get him down, even with 16 dpsers, and that was at 15 grows which seems slow. It seems fairly clear to me that a fair portion of our dps has no real idea what they're doing, and I'd love some advice from people more knowledgable than me to give them. Also, as a shadowpriest I have serious problems with the MT not generating enough threat even with Salvation on, hence my somewhat substandard showing.

I'd love any advice on how we could improve.

May I suggest the -2% threat enchant on your cloak and, if necissary, the -2% meta gem in your goggles. Having to stop dps, or slow down, because of threat issues is like throwing damage down the shitter, and you should avoid it like herpies.

Your spec is pretty good (might want to drop martydom) and your gear is solid. Your gems are kinda crappy, you would stick some +9 spell damage in replace of the crit gems.

To be honest, the groups are poor. It gets set up as five 5-man groups, a melee, a healer and three others. Mostly because the healers can't cope with healing outside their groups. Yeah, it's pretty dumb. I'm working on changing it, and you wouldn't believe how much drama it's causing.

Mallus is supposedly the third tank, in case the MT goes down. I'm not sold that it's more useful than just grabbing two swords and dpsing his little heart out, even as prot.

Good luck. It seems fair to say that if your healers can't cope with healing outside their groups, they're not qualified to heal anything other than a 5-man instance. However, I'm quite impressed that 6 of them, which is not a large number by any means, kept a Gruul attempt running to the number of growths that they did! This suggests that they're actually quite capable, just set in their ways. Get them to install Grid and forget that there's any such thing as 5-man groups within a raid group.

So he's working to stay #3 on threat? Is he succeeding? When you said you were having threat issues, did you mean staying underneath Mallus or underneath the hurtful-soaking druid?

btw he got combat rezzed or popped a soulstone after dying to a shatter - that was a waste. He's never going to successfully step up for a dead tank after having his aggro wiped by death, you could have used that rez yourself for a threat wipe.

While I poke through the thread for some Al'ar stats anyone got any pointers for this one? From what I understand it was a 15%ish wipe, our best attempt so far.

We're definitely making progress on him. Last week was 50% phase 2 and this week 15% with only 5 or so tries on the night (only spending one day of three in TK atm).

Wow Web Stats

Yeah, he's working to stay third and failing. And I struggle to stay under Donk the MT's threat. Although I like the idea of rezzing as a threat wipe, I'm fairly sure I'd be able to grab a SS and go stand in a cave in or something.

I'm having some DPS issues (not me personally, the multitude of people in my guild that are lower me despite significant time spent in bearform).

Here's our past week including our first Vashj (which is terrible, I'm aware)
We're missing our main Resto Shaman, one of our top Warlocks, and top Rogue to moving/vacation atm.

Magtheridon: Wow Web Stats
Gruul: Loading...
Leothrass: Loading...
Fathom Lord: Loading...
Tidewalker: Loading...
Lurker: Loading...
Hydross: Wow Web Stats
Void Reaver: Loading...
Vashj: Wow Web Stats

Last week had some very nice SSC work, but I was crashing and missed logging half the fights.

Tidewalker: Wow Web Stats
Leothras: Wow Web Stats
Gruul: Wow Web Stats

Some of our DPS do very well, all the time, others just can't seem to figure out spec/rotations/paying attention. Despite how much I'd love to say I know every class, I just can't figure out why some people are only doing 50% of the top people, even with the same presence.

Your MT should take a good look at his skill use, he can boost his TPS quite a bit. To me it looks like his main concern was dealing damage with devastate instead of optimising threat. He should be using way more revenge (every cooldown), which will give him a lot of extra rage to weave in more Heroic strikes.

Next time keep an eye on his rage bar, if it sits near 100 or on 100 rage a lot, tell him to use more heroic strikes.

On another note, his average devastate was 179 on that try. My devastates hit for maybe 230, but his weapon is considerably better than mine (Sun Eater vs Grom'tors Charge). This makes me thing he was devastating on a target that did not have 5 sunders up all the time... Check this also next time, because devastating on a target with less than 5 sunders not only harms TPS but also hurts your melee DPS a lot.

As a sidenote: he took 12 crushings which is a bit much.


Optimising DPS is a big thing on this fight, but the MT should not be DPS-ing over building threat and staying alive.