I have read through this thread quite a bit and have noticed a lot of helpful replies. I am posting a recent Magtheridon WWS Report and would appreciate your most constructive criticism. We are a casual raiding guild with no raid attendance policy and do quite well all things considered. We are currently working on Hydross and haven't reached the point where we can honestly blame DPS for not downing him. We have a difficult enough time with the phase transitions. Even though I am at the top of the meters on this fight I feel as though I can DPS harder (even with cube clicking duties)! If you're an expert at your respective class please share your thoughts and criticisms w/ me. Thank you for your input!
Have both of your shadow priests spec out of imp psychic scream and silence and get full 3/3 meditation. Silence shoudlnt be needed and meditation is just too good to not have.
Apparently the parse is inaccurate. Which is strange considering I use loggerhead and have my combatlog range extended to 200 yards. TY for pointing that out; somehow it completely skipped my mind (lol). However, lucky the only actors missing from the parse are 3 healers and 1 dps druid. I appreciate your comments regarding our mages they have been a weak point as of late and any additional comments for any class would be welcome. However due to the inaccuracy of the parse please ignore this post unless you are simply commenting on spec and such. TY and sorry about the parse.
I'll address your Rogue, Xthundercat. His spec could use some improvement, he's currently 15/42/4 combat fists. His optimal spec would involve dropping MoD, picking up Murder, and finishing off Ruthlessness and Lethality. He can keep the 3 points in Improved Eviscerate if he wants, but that leads me to his skill usage.
His personal skill details show that he's using Eviscerate as his primary (non-SnD) finisher. He really shouldn't be using Eviscerate at all for sustained DPS on a boss fight, unless the boss is immune to bleeds. Because he has the two piece t4 set bonus, he should be following a fairly strict 1s/5r cycle (SnD at 1 combo point, Rupture at 5 combo points).
I have read through this thread quite a bit and have noticed a lot of helpful replies. I am posting a recent Magtheridon WWS Report and would appreciate your most constructive criticism. We are a casual raiding guild with no raid attendance policy and do quite well all things considered. We are currently working on Hydross and haven't reached the point where we can honestly blame DPS for not downing him. We have a difficult enough time with the phase transitions. Even though I am at the top of the meters on this fight I feel as though I can DPS harder (even with cube clicking duties)! If you're an expert at your respective class please share your thoughts and criticisms w/ me. Thank you for your input!
I do not see a CoS / CoE on Maggie, only CoW. Having your second warlock (Meminime) casting CoE/CoS instead of CoD/CoA (preferably CoE with 5 fire mages in your raid) would push your raid dmg quite a bit.
The need of CoW is debatable. If your raid (esp. MT + Healer) is not familiar enough with the encounter it is ok to give some security. But sooner or later I would also drop CoW for CoS.
CoW isn't as good as imp demo shout anyways, and they don't stack, so there's really no point to it at all as long as your warriors are half-competent.
CoW isn't as good as imp demo shout anyways, and they don't stack, so there's really no point to it at all as long as your warriors are half-competent.
I believe Imp CoW and Imp Demo Shout are the same damage reduction. Imp CoW has the advantage of lasting 2 minutes. Demo Shout also has a substantially higher resist rate given warlock vs. warrior itemization (I believe demo shout takes the full 17%(?) spell resist rate as warriors don't usually have spell +hit). This all comes at the cost of a curse which may or may not be worth it.
Probably also depends on the number of warriors vs. warlocks in your raid.
I believe Imp CoW and Imp Demo Shout are the same damage reduction. Imp CoW has the advantage of lasting 2 minutes. Demo Shout also has a substantially higher resist rate given warlock vs. warrior itemization (I believe demo shout takes the full 17%(?) spell resist rate as warriors don't usually have spell +hit). This all comes at the cost of a curse which may or may not be worth it.
Probably also depends on the number of warriors vs. warlocks in your raid.
Ah you're right, they're the same -AP, but if you have a warlock using CoW they're NOT using CoS, CoE or a damage curse, so I think it ends up being a decrease in RDPS.
Our first Teron Gorefiend kill from last night: Wow Web Stats
This was FAR from an ideal group setup for us. To start, we had only 24 people (due to keying issues, and many members having RL things to attend to) 9 of whom were healers, so the kill was probably a bit slower than it should have been.
That said, I'm specifically interested in commentary on the warlocks (one of whom got shadowed very early on, and I believe he actually got shadowed twice), the tank (both mitigation and ability usage), the retadin and the MS warrior. Admittedly, our Retadin is in DIRE need of a new weapon since he's still swinging a gorehowl because the wow loot gods hate him.
As far as debuffs, we were using non-imp demo shout, fairy fire, tclap, CoS and a damage curse. Our only mage in raid last night was arcane, so CoE was irrelevant, and with the kind of damage he puts out on the main tank, we were a bit nervous to put CoR on, and didn't end up trying it.
The two rogues, warrior and Basiliya were in a group with an enhance shaman who was using a totem twisting macro, and with a retadin in with judgement of wisdom up, he was able to keep GoA and windfury down for, essentially, the entire fight.
Edit: I had thought the retadin had windfury, but digging through the parse of our kill, I was reminded that we switched him out of the MT group for a pally with devotion aura, and put him in a group with a shadow priest. That could have something to do with the lower than usual damage output.
I've been lurking here for quite a while now and have given close attention to this thread. I had hoped that by relaying info and general suggestions from here to my guild forums that our raid dps/performance would increase, and on some nights it has. On nights like last night however, where we struggled for close to four hours without being able to kill Hydross or Lurker, it's clear we could still use more help.
So I am opening up our guilds WWS Page to the gurus here at Elitist Jerks' forums to dissect our performance and hopefully dish out whatever criticism on a personal level you feel is needed. If a particular player is doing just fine please include that as well. All suggestions posted will be relayed to my guild. Hopefully some people will listen to them.
I've been lurking here for quite a while now and have given close attention to this thread. I had hoped that by relaying info and general suggestions from here to my guild forums that our raid dps/performance would increase, and on some nights it has. On nights like last night however, where we struggled for close to four hours without being able to kill Hydross or Lurker, it's clear we could still use more help.
So I am opening up our guilds WWS Page to the gurus here at Elitist Jerks' forums to dissect our performance and hopefully dish out whatever criticism on a personal level you feel is needed. If a particular player is doing just fine please include that as well. All suggestions posted will be relayed to my guild. Hopefully some people will listen to them.
Put your shadow priest with the mages first and foremost, not the healer or hunters unless you have more than one shadow priest. On the subject of mages, Amberdine needs to scorch less and fireball more-- work on a 1:8 rotation once there is a 5 stack of scorch up. The gearing needs work too. They are missing many enchantments including helm and leg. They are using a +4 spell crit gem (white quality), and a ton of gems that, well, have stats that aren't spell damage, hit, or crit. The talent spec includes 1/2 Wand Spec but 0/2 Burning Soul? No points in molten fury is a big mistake as well.
I could go on about many other people in the raid but I feel like a lot of the suggestion have already been said. Read this summary of common play mistakes:
I just thought I'd throw this up here for anyone doubting that melee haste needed a nerf. The only difference in buffs between last week and this week was that I got Leader of the Pack this week, and the only difference in gear was 2pc Swiftstrike over other non-haste gear. I'd estimate LotP to be about 50 DPS, so 2 pieces of gear was a 250 DPS upgrade.
Notice all of the damage sources are approx. the same between the weeks except for the ridiculous 100k extra white damage. Max hits are bigger due to the fact that the haste gear had 100ish more AP than my previous gear, but I had to drop about 1.5% crit and 35 hit to get it so it shouldn't have made a difference except the haste.
I just thought I'd throw this up here for anyone doubting that melee haste needed a nerf. The only difference in buffs between last week and this week was that I got Leader of the Pack this week, and the only difference in gear was 2pc Swiftstrike over other non-haste gear. I'd estimate LotP to be about 50 DPS, so 2 pieces of gear was a 250 DPS upgrade.
Notice all of the damage sources are approx. the same between the weeks except for the ridiculous 100k extra white damage. Max hits are bigger due to the fact that the haste gear had 100ish more AP than my previous gear, but I had to drop about 1.5% crit and 35 hit to get it so it shouldn't have made a difference except the haste.
Your melee crit rate went from 32% to 41%. I think you are underestimating Improved leader of the pack as well as seeing some statistical variance between the two fights. Also, 100 AP and 65 haste rating is way more item points than 1.5% crit and 35 hit. Haste is amazing but not the only reason you are seeing an improvement here.
Your melee crit rate went from 32% to 41%. I think you are underestimating Improved leader of the pack as well as seeing some statistical variance between the two fights. Also, 100 AP and 65 haste rating is way more item points than 1.5% crit and 35 hit. Haste is amazing but not the only reason you are seeing an improvement here.
My sinister strike crit also fell from 42% to 33%, and evis crit fell from 64% (!) to 46%. I may have also been playing a bit better this week, who knows...the point was that while I realize it's not the only reason it still seems to me like a ridiculous amount of difference from two pieces of gear, and I can see why it's being nerfed.
My sinister strike crit also fell from 42% to 33%, and evis crit fell from 64% (!) to 46%. I may have also been playing a bit better this week, who knows...the point was that while I realize it's not the only reason it still seems to me like a ridiculous amount of difference from two pieces of gear, and I can see why it's being nerfed.
It's true that your crit rate changed, but your total eviscerate and sinister strike damage did not change. In fact, your average melee went from 367 to 420 and your average crit went from 909 to 995. This accounts for more than half of the increase of your melee damage. The remaining increase is coming from the haste, which I agree is still an amazing increase =)
My guild's been stuck on Gruul/Lurker for about a month now, and I think the problem might be our DPS. We've only been able to run one Kara group this whole time due to class composition issues and not having certain key classes for a second group. So our DPS is under-geared relative to our Tanks/Healers (the tank/healer to DPS ratio is way different for 10 man content as opposed to 25man). Also, we've recruited some new people to flesh out our roster who haven't had a chance to gear up.
That's a link to one of our best attempts on the Lurker. It lasted ~14 minutes and we got him to around 30-35%. We've gotten very good at dodging spouts/whirls, for the most part, but eventually attrition wears us down until we don't have enough people up to handle the adds during our submerge phase.
I know our gear is a big part of the issue, but I'm sure that we could all get a good 20% or more DPS out of our guys without any gear upgrades with the right info. I've frequented these forums for a few months now and learned quite a bit, but I'm sure I'm screwing something up here. I've seen WWS logs where every DPSer is putting out double what our highest DPSer is. Those are the guilds who could probably kill him 2.5 times in the time it takes us to do one attempt =P
How can we improve? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Edit: Might as well point out before anyone else mentions it. My feints were on the adds, not lurker. And the SS's were a "don't let energy go to waste" deal
Re-edit: Modoras is a mage, not a priest. I need to change that in the "Actors" tab
You definitely have your work cut out for you. First and foremost, highly encourage your DPS casters to pick up tailoring. Offer them some sort of incentive or if you have guild funds available, provide it to some of your more senior members who've been in your guild for a while. Gear is definitely an issue for these folks, and one of the best ways to combat this is tailoring.
Second, please read over this excellent post by Tedv. It hits on all of the points that are very common mistakes that you guys are experiencing.
Here's a short (not complete) laundry list of things you need to tell your guild:
No CoS/CoE were used.
Shadow bolt > drain life for DPS. Drain life only when needed.
Kitty druids should not be using rake. Shred to 5 combo points and rip while keeping mangle on the mob.
Serpent sting bad. Scorpid sting good. Reapply hunter's mark on Lurker each time after he pops back up (was only applied once).
Thunder clap and demo shout are two things that must be on Lurker at all times. Thunder clap was only used once while demo was never used.
Give your melee group windfury. A resto shaman works just fine.
Get a shadow priest.
I may be really wrong, but why are you only brining 5 dedicated healers to Lurker? I could see bringing only 6 with at least one shadow priest, but for a guild that's still working out kinks with Lurker, you're better off with bringing 6 or 7. Of course your guild is probably just fine with those 5 considering how far you got into the fight.
Last edited by Dyslexicmonkey : 08/23/07 at 7:31 PM.
Reason: Grammar
Commenting on your hunter. Obviously he shouldn't use aimed shot and serpent sting. How he went through the entire fight without using a steady shot is amazing to me. Using steady correctly (in between autoshots) will probably double his dps. He's a heavy marksmanship hunter, so he should be using a 1:1.5 rotation, (auto, steady, multi, auto, steady, auto, steady, arcane, auto, steady, repeat). Keep hunters mark up the entire fight, and lastly, have him use his pet. Lurker is now a fairly pet friendly fight, it may need a mend every now and again, but it really doesn't take much damage compared to some other fights in the same tier of instance.
His build seems to be a solo/levelling/pvp hybrid build, it could use a lot of work, but in his defense, looking at his gear it appears as if he's a fresh 70 (I hope so anyways!) Since Steady Shot isn't awarded until level 62, many fresh hunters overlook its value, after playing the majority of the game without it. Good luck!
This is our second Teron kill, and we clocked in at just shy of 20k raid dps. Following the convention set by many of the top guilds listed on WWS, I'm attributing Vengeful Spirit as a pet. This adds about 5k raid dps.
Compared to the top dps parses for this fight, we're about 5-7k raid dps short. Now obviously Juggernaut, Blood Legion and the other guilds posting the top parses have been clearing Illidan and there's a significant gear gap between their raids and ours. However I can't help but think it shouldn't be accounting for a dps gap quite that large.
My first question then is; given it's our second kill - is ~20k raid dps a low figure? about right?
It seems to me that in an attrition fight such as this one, small raid dps boosts are magnified. Shorter kills have higher dps by virtue of the fact that fewer people are removed from the fight by the construct mechanic. Juggernaut's top kill is ~4min - ours is ~6min - and those last 2 min the dps is really noticably lower due to dead folk.
The second question; any thoughts on better group makeup?
We were missing our survival hunter for this fight, so we didn't have expose weakness. It seems to me that in a melee friendly fight like this one, missing a buff like expose weakness hurt us somewhat significantly.
We ran with our prot pally keeping up judge of light (you can click the judgement to see its effective heal) and cleanse duty. It's possible to switch out for more dps instead I guess. We were having a little trouble with incinerate gibbing people, so perhaps an additional healer in that slot instead. Although dedicated cleanse-bot really helped.
All the shamans were promoted in the raid, and were chaining heroisms on the top dps groups.
And finally - any individual improvements you notice - I'd love to relay suggestions for individual performance improvements to my raiders.
The parse has all our attempts for the evening, if you see something odd about a player's performance, you can track through some of the earlier attempts to compare and see if it was an anomaly.
Lightforce was obviously assigned to heal the MT (who I'm sure has BoL), but he has 4-piece Crystalforge and used FoL 89 times! Holy Light Rank 4 is much more efficient than Flash of Light for the same amount of healing/second, when coupled with BoL, 4-piece T5, and the Libram of Souls Redeemed. Not only is Holy Light Rank 4 more efficient, but it keeps your big heal "primed," so if you ever have an "oh crap" moment, your big heal is already ready to go. He should really give it a try sometime.
It also looks like he never put Judgement of Light on Teron, and this would be very helpful for keeping the melee healed (i.e. help the raid healers out a lot). It's admittedly hard to keep up when you're the only MT healer and you don't have a ret Pally, and it's not clear to me if Lightforce was or not, but, especially with Teron when you're already so close to him, there should be no problem with periodically judging Light up there.
Yeah, BoL is definitely up - I'll pass your suggestion on to him regarding HL4. By 'primed' I assume you're referring to keeping Light's Grace up?
As to JoL, we had our prot pally keeping that up, so there was no need for the MT healers to do it. Wow Web Stats
total gross healing of 325k from the seal (not accounting for overheal).
Yeah, I mean keeping Light's Grace up by "primed."
I made a spreadsheet a while ago with the efficiency numbers of HL and FoL. It's pretty staggering how efficient HL4 can be with 4 piece T5 as you increase +healing (linear) and crit% (not linear... improves better with the more crit% you have). It's so good I'm not going for T6 because of it.
Holy Light Rank 4 is much more efficient than Flash of Light for the same amount of healing/second, when coupled with BoL, 4-piece T5, and the Libram of Souls Redeemed. Not only is Holy Light Rank 4 more efficient, but it keeps your big heal "primed," so if you ever have an "oh crap" moment, your big heal is already ready to go. He should really give it a try sometime.
This is a good point, and it really makes you wonder what the point of Flash of Light is anymore. I don't have a paladin, but I noticed this very quickly after playing one on the PTR.
Yeah, I mean keeping Light's Grace up by "primed."
I made a spreadsheet a while ago with the efficiency numbers of HL and FoL. It's pretty staggering how efficient HL4 can be with 4 piece T5 as you increase +healing (linear) and crit% (not linear... improves better with the more crit% you have). It's so good I'm not going for T6 because of it.
All of our paladins are on the same boat. They've actually been surprised more top end paladins haven't pick up on it. T6 shoulders, T5 everything else. The increased HPS and efficiency through downranking outdoes whatever benefit the stats from T6 gives. It also allows them to pump out massive HPS if they need to.
Been lurking here, looking for ideas for a long time. Finally thought I'd post a WWS of our SSC clear on Wednesday, and see if anyone had any comments.
One note: please be aware that normally we run with an enhancement shaman for our melee group. He is out of town this week, and thus we are down to just a resto shaman, who gets moved around based on who I think deserves a bit of love. The rogues are used to having WF, so I thought I'd baby a few others this week and give them some totemz.
Notes on Wednesday:
1) Hydross is done with focus-fire strat, not AE.
2) Leotheras was a complete mess, worst kill in ages. People need to L2P.
3) Morogrim we use a pally tank near the graves; casters almost never get graved. Safe and steady.
I haven't posted it anywhere, but I'm more than happy to send it to anyone, if they're interested. Just PM me your email address and I'll send it along. =)
I was going to make a post in the Class Discussions Forums about it, but never got around to it, since I didn't think anyone would be that interested. Apparently, I was wrong. =) I'll work on getting that up in the next day or two.
Just to forewarn you all, I know my spreadsheet isn't 100% accurate (it doesn't account for Healing Light, for example), but it should give you the relative power of different spells to each other (mostly). Healing Light actually helps Holy Light even more, since the healing/second is the same as Flash of Light, but the cast time is actually a little longer, so HL heals for more per cast.
08/22/07, 11:56 AM
Similar Threads
