2.1.2 #Many raid items have had their art improved. (other 2.1.2 stuff as well) - Page 10

Draele · 06/18/07, 7:11 PM

Originally Posted by zeidrich

In PvP you can fail against every team 10 times a week. In time you will get any item you want. Likewise, as your rating drops, you're more likely to be put against more and more retarded groups until there's someone who plays by banging their head against the keyboard who you can beat. If your rating gets too low you can always just form a new team.

In raids you can fail against any boss as much as you want. Eventually you'll just get incredibly high repair bills, no loot, especially not whatever item you'd like. If you can not get the job done, you get nothing but a bill. In fact, even if you do incredibly well, there's no guarantee you'll even see the item that you want. (IE: We've never had maiden drop the damn tanking necklace)

Bingo. Raid gear requires success.

Arena gear requires x games a week. Success will speed it up, but ultimately you can get some really nice gear for being a complete imbecile.

songster · 06/18/07, 7:19 PM

Originally Posted by Draele

Bingo. Raid gear requires success.

Arena gear requires x games a week. Success will speed it up, but ultimately you can get some really nice gear for being a complete imbecile.

Solution: Put in some easier raid instances so eventually the imbecile raiders get a bite of the cherry too...

<whistles innocently>

Apate · 06/19/07, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by Kasi

I see egos run amok in both of them.

Definitely. In my experience, people in PvE can do some spot-on imitations of PvP asshats (or vice versa). I raid with some fairly laid-back people, though ("serious casuals" if you will). I've only been in one guild since I hit 50-something in classic WoW and my previous guild was absorbed by Apatheia, and it's not because I can't find another guild.

Antiphonal · 06/19/07, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by songster

Solution: Put in some easier raid instances so eventually the imbecile raiders get a bite of the cherry too...

<whistles innocently>

They are called normal instances.

I think that a lot of this is mitigated by how bad the Arena gear is for raiding. The stat distribution is way out of line for what I need as a PvE mage, even though for PvP it is doubtless a godly set.

Compared to how it was, when Frostfire was the best mage set for ANY purpose whatsoever, I prefer it this way. PvP to get PvP gear, PvE to get PvE gear. You can use one for the other purpose, but it will not be optimal.

Ammonra · 06/19/07, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by Evalara

Karazhan is a mix of humanoid, undead, demon, and mechanical. Gruul's is all humanoid. Magtheridon is a demon. SSC has humanoid, elemental, beast, and giant. The Eye has mechanical, elemental, and humanoid. And of course the old raids were heavy on elementals, dragonkin, and "not specified".

So, no.

Ok to be more specific then:

Black Temple: 7 humanoid, 4 not
Mount Hyjal: 5 not
SSC: 3 humanoid, 3 not
TK: 2 humanoid, 2 not
Gruul: 2 humanoid
Magth: 1 not

So basically its 14 humanoid bosses and 15 not humanoid, and I concede that you are correct. But (almost) half is still a pretty good total, and far from making "+dmg to humanoid" an insignificant pve statistic. By just listing types and not the count of the types, you make it seem more lopsided than it actually is.

note: I left out Kara in the numbers because, well, it's Kara so it hardly counts anyway. And I left out the old world raids because they are really no longer significant.

Evalara · 06/19/07, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by Antiphonal

They are called normal instances.

I think that a lot of this is mitigated by how bad the Arena gear is for raiding. The stat distribution is way out of line for what I need as a PvE mage, even though for PvP it is doubtless a godly set.

Compared to how it was, when Frostfire was the best mage set for ANY purpose whatsoever, I prefer it this way. PvP to get PvP gear, PvE to get PvE gear. You can use one for the other purpose, but it will not be optimal.

Plenty of exceptions to that, though. For non-tailor mages, the S1 arena chest is clearly superior to T4 chest for PvE, and the shoulders aren't bad either (and were easily superior pre-2.1). Marshal's Silk Cuffs have no PvE-sourced upgrade until loot from Al'ar. Even the S1 weapons were competitive with raid loot and the S2 are nearly best-in-slot game-wide.

Also Frostfire never seemed that good to me outside of a few slots but that's neither here nor there.

• Shifft · 06/19/07, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by Evalara

Plenty of exceptions to that, though. For non-tailor mages, the S1 arena chest is clearly superior to T4 chest for PvE, and the shoulders aren't bad either (and were easily superior pre-2.1). Marshal's Silk Cuffs have no PvE-sourced upgrade until loot from Al'ar. Even the S1 weapons were competitive with raid loot and the S2 are nearly best-in-slot game-wide.

Also Frostfire never seemed that good to me outside of a few slots but that's neither here nor there.

Silly mage, T4's not for PvE...that's what tailoring is for!

Haphnet · 06/19/07, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by Ammonra

So basically its 14 humanoid bosses and 15 not humanoid, and I concede that you are correct. But (almost) half is still a pretty good total, and far from making "+dmg to humanoid" an insignificant pve statistic.

Is there any reason, besides being severely extreme, that abilities that work ONLY against Players couldn't be implemented? Afterall, Curse of Doom exists and it can only be cast on non players so it seems feasible that it could be implemented. This would definately make it insignificant in PVE and still not outright overpowered in PvP.

Aditu · 06/19/07, 12:22 PM

From a paladin's healing perspective, I'd still choose Justicar and some kara healing pieces over the Merciless arena pieces and I'd rather have the Shard of Virtuous over the healing hammer for my specific gear. DPS gear is a bit harder to limit, since DPS is just DPS and involves fewer stats for most classes then healing but I absolutely do not think that being able to intermix Arena gear and pve gear for the best set is bad in anyway.

Evalara · 06/19/07, 1:47 PM

Originally Posted by Shifft

Silly mage, T4's not for PvE...that's what tailoring is for!

You can have my herb/alch when you pry it from my cold, dead hands!

subscience · 06/19/07, 1:57 PM

TK/SSC Attunement requirements were removed:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...10637185&sid=1

Teez · 06/19/07, 2:00 PM

Originally Posted by subscience

TK/SSC Attunement requires were removed:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...10637185&sid=1

What the... (it won't load for me ... are you for real?)

subscience · 06/19/07, 2:01 PM

Originally Posted by Teez

What the... (it won't load for me ... are you for real?)

Check out this thread: Attunements Lifted

Lysara · 06/19/07, 2:02 PM

Originally Posted by subscience

TK/SSC Attunement requires were removed:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...10637185&sid=1

For those who the page won't load for:

Originally Posted by Tigole

After a lot of thought and deliberation, we’ve decided to remove the attunement requirements to enter Serpentshrine Cavern and Tempest Keep: The Eye. While many of our attunements in the Burning Crusade have been good progression checks, a few of the attunements have turned out to cause unnecessary stress on guilds either doing the content or attempting to do the content. With Black Temple and Battle for Mount Hyjal thriving, we want to encourage (rather than prevent) new guilds and raid groups to attempt Serpentshrine and TK. We are going to leave the current attunement quests in the game so that players can still engage in the challenge and the lore of those quests should they choose to. At a later point, we are considering adding a final reward step to those quests as well (that way those who have already completed them would not miss out on a *new* reward).

We’re listening to feedback from you guys constantly and your opinions are important to us. We want this game to be the best possible MMO experience for our players.

Enjoy Serpentshrine and Tempest Keep =)

That's a pretty significant change.

Natural · 06/19/07, 2:21 PM

Can someone link/copy the full 2.1.2 patch notes?

Edit: Nevermind. My brain is not working today. http://www.mmo-champion.com/

Thanks

Osse · 06/19/07, 3:05 PM

I feel sorry for all recruit officers around the world.

All the biggest space cadets/ebayers wont get stuck in the attunement requirements anymore. :|

Sillia · 06/19/07, 3:08 PM

Originally Posted by Draele

Bingo. Raid gear requires success.

Arena gear requires x games a week. Success will speed it up, but ultimately you can get some really nice gear for being a complete imbecile.

Raid gear does not necessarily require success. In just about every raid put out so far, trash has had the chance to drop epics. Trash also frequently provides reputation (Brood of Nozdormu, Hydraxian Waterlords, Violet Eye, Ashtongue Deathsworn, Scale of the Sands, etc.) which turns into other items. You don't ever actually have to kill a boss, you just need to kill trash.

Every raid instance so far also had random trash drop epics, from Molten Core on. So... while the situations are not completely analogous, just killing trash is sufficient to 'get rewarded' from raiding. Nether Vortexes come from SSC and the Eye. There are various trash epics from Karazhan, like Boots of Elusion and Zierhut's Treads. The Wildfury Greatstaff is a SSC trash drop.

--S

• Maestroquark · 06/19/07, 3:46 PM

Originally Posted by Osse

I feel sorry for all recruit officers around the world.

All the biggest space cadets/ebayers wont get stuck in the attunement requirements anymore. :|

The news has already created one painful thread, now it's threatening to ruin another?

mek · 06/19/07, 3:49 PM

Originally Posted by Maestroquark

The news has already created one painful thread, now it's threatening to ruin another?

Yes people, this thread is for the discussion of our cool new shoulder graphics, please don't get hung up on major changes to raid progression and other such trivialities.

ebbv · 06/19/07, 3:51 PM

Let's force this train back on topic:

Anybody with the season 1 gladiator dagger care to tell the class if enchantments show up on it? I'm going to go sadly eat a bowl of oatmeal in the corner if I end up with another weapon which my 1000g enchantment doesn't show up on.

Cronjob · 06/19/07, 4:03 PM

Originally Posted by Tiiki

Nice post, thanks for that.

I'm currently arguing in that PvP forum thread too, so thanks Malan (!).

Drysc's basic argument is of course correct. It's just that some classes already had more outs than others, and some have or depend on CC more for their effectiveness. If all classes had the same power CCs on the same CDs, then it makes sense... currently, I don't quite get it.

i agree with you here. Say a hunter vs Lock with felpup or succy. The lock can remove ice trap with felpup already so that negates one CC from hunter. The lock still has three or four CC's if you count the seduce. Once the hunter burns his trinket its GG hunter.

Essentially class A has 5 forms of CC and 3 ways to remove it vs class B who has 2 forms of CC with 1 way to remove it.

Same could be said for druid, you cant slow them down at all so that negates a lot of classes ability to slow or CC them. Now they get one more.

Sagerix · 06/19/07, 4:59 PM

Originally Posted by ebbv

Let's force this train back on topic:

Anybody with the season 1 gladiator dagger care to tell the class if enchantments show up on it? I'm going to go sadly eat a bowl of oatmeal in the corner if I end up with another weapon which my 1000g enchantment doesn't show up on.

Not sure if you're asking on your main or not. Melee dagger definitely shows enchants, I'd assume caster dagger does but it would also just be an assumption.

nataku · 06/19/07, 5:12 PM

The caster dagger has a bright innate blue glow, so it's difficult to see a Soul Frost enchant (if it was even visible...).

Enova · 06/25/07, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by Cronjob

i agree with you here. Say a hunter vs Lock with felpup or succy. The lock can remove ice trap with felpup already so that negates one CC from hunter. The lock still has three or four CC's if you count the seduce. Once the hunter burns his trinket its GG hunter.

Essentially class A has 5 forms of CC and 3 ways to remove it vs class B who has 2 forms of CC with 1 way to remove it.

Same could be said for druid, you cant slow them down at all so that negates a lot of classes ability to slow or CC them. Now they get one more.

Well, i guess people will eventually adjust to this, but damn, i hate these abrupt changes in balance...