The fact that she's a dagger rogue.

First of all i have to say that i dont like arena pvp at all, like many raiders here too. Before tbc i was participating in 3 HWL grinds, so i fed up with pvp for long time.
But i think that many of you guys missing the point. Is it bad thing that arena players have access to good weapons? Ofc not. Maybe price on s2 weapons is a bit low, but let blizzard decide. Real problem is that there is no other options in pve for several classes at t4 and even t5 level, plus pve weapons is hard to get (while pve sets is much easier now than in vanilla). So solution is not to nerf arena gear, but improve pve weapons itemisation. This can be done several ways, like it was in aq40, or with some kind of raid heroic badges.

Personally, I have no interest in pvp or the arena in wow, i'd rather play an fps if I want to play against other people.

I just wish blizzard would sort out their itemisation holes so pvp wasn't the only option for upgrades at certain stages of pve progression for people. Looking at the options for my character, I might end up having to do arena if I want to get a shield upgrade before the latter stages of tier 6 content, which seems even more ludicrous than people needing to pvp for weapons.

Has anyone got accesss to Glorious Gauntlets of Crestfall on the test realm ? They are the horrible placeholder plate atm

I don't understand why they don't just add a 'Ignores X resilience" on weapons and keep their dps lower. That would be valuable in arenas but useless in pvp.

I don't really see the problem with a few items carrying over to the other side of the fence. I will seriously consider wearing 2 piece tier 6 in the arena because of the set bonus and high stamina, even at a cost of resilience. I'll also be using a season 2 spellblade for at least a couple months starting tomorrow, for both arenas and raiding. My rogue alt will be picking up an offhand weapon that he will likely never replace until the level cap is raised again.

I do suppose it's a bit of a blow to the e-peen that tomorrow there will be dozens of players running around in tier5 skin gear, with Vashj/Kael quality weapons, while there are only 2 guilds on Icecrown that have downed Vashj, and nobody who has beaten Kael. But still, putting a player with mediocre skills in better gear won't suddenly make them attractive to raiding guilds, or make them serious contenders in the arenas. Hardcore raiders just lose a bit of the uniqueness of their gear. I'm not saying that it's a good thing, I'm just saying that it's not the end of the world either.

If raiding players were wearing 4 pieces of arena gear and all the honor reward items to kill X boss, that would be a problem. And if the top arena teams are wearing mostly tier 6 and raid drops, that would also be bad. Neither situation is going to happen though.

What I find horrible about some of the S2 gear is a lack in itemisation in raiding more than the fact the PvP items will be good for raiding. Currently the S2 Gladiator Maul (the druid mace) is the best DPS weapon for a druid, unless theres something that drops off the last 2-3 bosses currently in the game (in which case, although nice, it's not really great when you want upgrades to make the current stuff easier). There isn't a single feral DPS weapon past Terestians, which is mid kara. Theres no feral bracers better than the S1/2 ones either - I say feral because although the Gorefiend/Winterchill bracers are an upgrade DPS wise, theres no bracers with bonus armour/strength post heroics. It's a bit of a joke that in 2 of my slots theres NO upgrade from raiding past mid-kara/heroics. Ah well, time to farm another 13k+ honour and another 2.2k arena points to go with those I've saved up to try and get the items.

It pains me even more than some classes are spoilt for choice on items - rogues get the haste bracers (crafted, the plan of which I have now), the Gorefiend bracers, and the Winterchill bracers, all in a short raiding "distance". Warriors have 4-5 sets of DPS plate shoulders up to the middle of BT, on top of the tier set shoulders.

Technically, despite the armor, Pillar of Ferocity off Anetheron is a DPS weapon (though notably lacking in Agility, some excellent AP). But it's an exception that proves the rule - from Illhoof to Anetheron is a pretty long road. I guess you could look on the bright side and say that you should feel free to get a nice enchant on your Stranglestaff, since it'll be around for a while ...

I am surprised also by what seems like a lack of off-set tanking leather (though the crafted patterns for belt and boots, plus the boots drop in BT are alright). The Tier sets have nice armor and all, but the compromise between DPS stats and tanking stats isn't a comfortable one, favoring damage stats over tanking ones.

The problem is that such a stat wouldn't have no effect on somebody entering an arena with PvE gear only, which has no resilience. So PvP weapons wouldn't be stronger against somebody who has no PvP gear.

But I agree PvP needs an offensive stat. Currently PvE mechanics render some PvE stats like hit and defence not very useful, so adding PvP versions of it (Resilience is roughly a "PvP defence") would work. Some stat that would render a player more vulnerable to damage from other player. It's not easy to design, though. The beauty of resilience is that it isn't specifically a PvP stat, it's just a stronger PvP stat than a PvE one. Making a "Increased chance to ignore dodge/parry/resist from enemy players" stat isn't as elegant.

All in all, I don't mind being trashed by PvP geared people if I enter the arena in PvE epics. It's not the side of the game I've been working on. Some gear overlap is allright, but 90% of the guilds out there (certainly including mine, and we are having lots of new Arena teams being formed for this season) can grind a few weeks PvP to get weapon upgrades that would take months (if ever) to reach using the PvE road.

And yes, I hate PvP. For me it's boring and repetitive. Doing the 60th arena game after a month to get points gets old very fast. Can guarantee I've not fought Shade of Aran 60 times yet.

Anyway, time to grind the best shield before Black Temple (that i know of). I ended quitting Arena in season 1, but now it would be a terribly stupid thing to do.

Because it's not fun? Why does this need any explanation?

Getting stunlocked, snared, nuked, and beaten to dead by pvp speccs is not fun as a pve specced player. And I refuse to specc towards pvp (And I do realize this comes from a BM hunter)

Despite what anyone contends, arena gear is not "easy epics." I've spent a good two months in the process of gearing up in honor points items and then finding and arranging time with a 5v5 team to get practiced and maintain a rating in the 1800's-1900's range. It took me at least 2 weeks per set piece. In the same amount of time, I picked up near-full tier 4 (cause it was a joke at the time) and multiple other slot upgrades. The only major difference between PvE and PvP pursuits is that through PvP you get to choose the order of items, rather than being subject to the random number generator. But the time commitment is roughly the same when you throw in the added need for personal motivation and increased emphasis on individual play skill. You basically choose between how you wish to suffer for your gear; monetarily or mindnumbingly.

As far as weapons go, they will always have cross usability because their purpose doesn't change a great deal between the different play styles. You're always using a healing staff to heal and always using a dagger, sword, or bow to inflict damage on peoples' egos. The fact that they're near equivocal is more of a sign of balance. Sure some idiot will pick up the daggers first, but if they're other gear isn't up to par they will perform no better than someone in an equal sum of item levels whose been working through the armor pieces.

Of course, there are those who will naturally cheese their way to a full set by sitting at 1500 rating. However, this takes several months and by the time they bring this goal to fruition, they will be months behind and on the brink of a new season. Virtually nothing has changed to this system. In many ways the S2 weapons and armor sets are a good thing, because it creates the framework in which starting players have the ability, should excellence gift them, to become viable recruiting material to high-end guilds. They won't be cream of the crop, but it may be better than picking up joe shmoe in 5-man blues.

With these factors in mind, the visual similarity does not irk me a great deal. As much as I'd love to see unique graphics, I'd just as much like to see good designs get milked than have potentially ugly new designs? Would we really want another iteration of the mail and plate Warlord sets? I sure don't.

Out of all the games I have played, WoW has the worst pvp system. PvP in WoW is just a serious of repetative minigames that seem to have been envisioned for those who have short attention spans only. They add no significant shift to the game dynamic. They do nothing for the game at large. There is nothing "epic" or "grand" about a 2 minute deathmatch.

World PvP comes closer to what I think would be enjoyable, meaningful pvp, but at the end of the day it's still more like playing paintball than real warfare, just a weak shadow of the grand nature of what it could have been.

It may take as much real world time overall to get the pieces, but the level of time effort is drastically different. It's not "easy epics" because it only takes a week to get; It's "easy epics" because it takes 1-2 hours of play time, not lost money to durability, no need to farm consumables, getting 5 people together is a ton easier than 25, etc.....

I personally find it easier to show up to raids that meet several days of the week and have multiple chances to catch up with any quotas. Whereas having to meet once a week, you deal with the likelihood of people flaking out and blowing the credit for that week. The PvP goals certainly have the potential to be much easier, but in practice, it is largely not the case without a great deal of diligence. And while 3v3 and 2v2 are easier to hold up, the point reduction alone automatically sets participants behind the 5v5 rollers.

I guess +damage against humanoids would be a stat that's not "purely" pvp, but is certainly pvp-heavy.

While I agree that there are several chances to raid in a week, there are equally as many opportunities for you to field an area group. Also, if 2 healers flake out on a raid night, guess what, no raid because we are short healing. And the probability of 2 out of 25 people having something come up and miss is higher than 1 out of 5. Raiding is also linear in a lot of ways. Sure we have 5 nights (my guild doesn't raid on Fri or Sat) to raid, but if we miss one night we are set back that much farther because we have a few bosses to kill to get to Vashj/Kael that should've died earlier in the week. And considering we are now working on Kael, it costs us valuable time to learn the encounter (another thing that Arena player's don't have to worry with because you at least get points even if you lose repeatedly.) If you miss a night for your 1 hour a week arenas, you simply try the next night with no pushback from the lost time at all.

I have no real problem with arenas per say (i don't in any way enjoy them but if that's your thing fine). I am also no saying that you, or anyone else here, is skating along with 10 games a week to easy epics. I am saying that it is slightly insulting and belittles the effort that goes into raiding when gear of almost equal quality is available for such little comparable effort (not just fielding a group but my numerous other points above).

I'm not very competitive with others. I play to better myself and help my teammates. In that context, I enjoy PvP. I'm more apt to laugh than yell when I have a bad round. Outside of organized groups, this isn't an attitude that will make you friends in PvP. Granted, in PuGs, no one really cares what you're doing, because we can all run around like chickens with our heads collectively rolling alongside us. It's the Ego that just tires me. I don't even mind people who talk smack, but some of the egos in PvP make me wish I was grinding bat eyes somewhere. I can't make myself take it so seriously.

That's an interesting response Apate. Since in this thread and the one on FoH especially a complaint has come up that this response has a lot to do with raider's ego. From my personal experience with raiders and PVP'ers I see egos run amuk in both of them. And the "its serious business" comes up constantly in these posts. "If you don't care to take the time to dedicate to organized raiding and really get serious about the game, you just don't deserve the same gear, or gear equivalent to T5." Seems very much that some of the raiders care very much about it being serious business.

Apate is right on the money. The "PvP is serious business" attitude is what drove me away from battlegrounds many months ago. I got so turned off that I haven't even tried the arena, although I really should one of these days. Just because some guy was the first to load into AV and wound up with the leader tag, we're supposed to put up with his constant swearing in all caps? It's the same problem that plagues unmoderated message boards. In an anonymous environment, people seem to feel like they have the green light to behave like a two year old throwing a tantrum. You can find insufferable egos anywhere in WoW, but in my experience 90% of them are usually PUGging battlegrounds.

Karazhan is a mix of humanoid, undead, demon, and mechanical. Gruul's is all humanoid. Magtheridon is a demon. SSC has humanoid, elemental, beast, and giant. The Eye has mechanical, elemental, and humanoid. And of course the old raids were heavy on elementals, dragonkin, and "not specified".

So, no.

The difference:

Pugging in PvP you have 10-15 idiots who you don't know or respect, who feel the need to bark orders at you, wag their e-peen, and yell at you for being a noob.

Raiding, you're typically with people you know and respect. Your leader is someone you know and can tolerate, and it's fun standing up to the challenge.

Organized PvP is fun as well, but I've rarely found a group that I enjoy PvPing with, and who's leader I'm willing to listen to as much as I do when I'm raiding. Arena normally gives me that outlet, but the current rating system doesn't drive me to perform. Since raiding is my primary goal, I go to the arena to play my 10 games, get my 300-400 points at the end of the week and then go back to the real game.

I still feel arena epics are easy compared to raiding epics.

In PvP you can fail against every team 10 times a week. In time you will get any item you want. Likewise, as your rating drops, you're more likely to be put against more and more retarded groups until there's someone who plays by banging their head against the keyboard who you can beat. If your rating gets too low you can always just form a new team.

In raids you can fail against any boss as much as you want. Eventually you'll just get incredibly high repair bills, no loot, especially not whatever item you'd like. If you can not get the job done, you get nothing but a bill. In fact, even if you do incredibly well, there's no guarantee you'll even see the item that you want. (IE: We've never had maiden drop the damn tanking necklace)