The pvp trinket will remove the conflagg debuff. It's proved to be very beneficial to us to do that and have our phoenix tank try and soak conflags while everyone else outranges them. it's important to remember that p1 has no time limit and setting up control is far more important then setting the record for fastest Capernian.
"I have nothing personally invested in my own opinions. I'm just, like, inviting you to join me on the bandwagon of my own uncertainty." -Taylor Mali
Just a quick note of thank to everybody that contributed to this topic.
He went down on the first try of the evening with just 4 deaths, and 1 shaman that selfressed at the start of p3.
If anybody cares we used:
2x prot warrior 2 feral druid to tank
1x holy priest 3x holy paladin 2x Resto shaman 1x tree druid as healers
We have been working on kael for a few nights now and one of our biggest problems so far has been the looting of weapons. We know they are tradeable and we do trade them to our tanks and healers. However, we are using AOE to burn them down and there are so many people, mobs, totems and other items in such a small area that it is very dificult to select the dead weapon so that it can be looted. Is there some sort of macro that will allow you to target the dead weapon and loot it?
One AWESOME tip that helped us immensely with looting the weapons is as follows:
Tilt your camera such that it is parallel to the ground.
Hmm I will definitely have to try this next time we have some attempts. My guild also tries to make sure that the weapons get backed up 2-3 yards out of the aoe clump right before they're about to die.
Do you actually mean parallel? I have never had issues looting from the clump being perpendicular to the ground and I'd think it would be worse in the same plane.
The guild i'm in is just starting to kill Kael'thas and there is something i have noticed that i am unable to explain with the fight, Its just a minor thing, but am hoping someone else has noticed it and is able to explain it.
Essentially it has to do with initial agro of the adds.
Once Kael has finished his speech (about 30 seconds from initial agro) his first advisor becomes active. Just before he fixates on his target he chooses someone in the raid (as per normal) however, the other 3 advisors also always pick the same target when the become active, unfortunatly i wasnt targeting Kael when he became active in Phase 4 so i cant be sure if he also picks this person as his initial target. My query is, how do they come by this target. Tonight we had one person as this target 90% of the time, from 4 hours of attempts. This is too high a number for me to believe its pure randomness. In my observations tonight this player was not the person to walk towards kael starting the encounter, nor were they buffing the raid during the speech. infact during many of the attempts they were just chillin with the raid getting ready to do some ranged dps to the first advisor. Bearing in mind we knew exactly who was going to now be the first target of any advisor we were able to use this to assist in positioning the other advisors to there appropriate spots.
I guess my reason for asking is has anyone been able to reliably control this? or is this just one of those random things that just happen, kind of like ouro's submerge ability at the first 1.5Min mark.
excuse the rambling order of my comments if you need any clarification i'll try to add any extra information.
Tonight we had one person as this target 90% of the time, ...
Was this person a healer?
Often, when some warlocks are using Life Tap or other hp-deficits are still remaining from the previous mob, the bored Healers cast renew or some stuff on them. That's always enough to gain aggro. When we had our first tries on him this was a pretty annoying thing, especially when Sanguinar spawned.
I've seen this phenomenon too, and it varies from night to night who it is. One night, it was our Moonkin druid, another night, a Holy paladin, and another night a hunter. No rhyme or reason to it.
As Labersin said, it seems to be one person any given night for the entire night, and has no correlation to what that person is doing at any given time. The night it was our hunter, who does the MD of Capernian to our lock tank in the back during Phase 1, every attempt that night she would Fireball him first as he MD'd before running off. Any other night, she just ignores him and follows the MD threat as normal.
I'd have to ask my MT, but I think Kael himself simply aggros at the start of Phase 4 on whoever started the encounter. We had a problem one night where when he popped in Phase 4 he fireballed one of our rogues (who had started the encounter, and who was standing about 10 yards away not doing anything) before the MT could get a shield bash on him, so from then on we've had the MT start the encounter.
I'd have to ask my MT, but I think Kael himself simply aggros at the start of Phase 4 on whoever started the encounter. We had a problem one night where when he popped in Phase 4 he fireballed one of our rogues (who had started the encounter, and who was standing about 10 yards away not doing anything) before the MT could get a shield bash on him, so from then on we've had the MT start the encounter.
Having a rogue or two on KT from the second he pops out is pretty much awesome for interupts =)
I've seen this phenomenon too, and it varies from night to night who it is. One night, it was our Moonkin druid, another night, a Holy paladin, and another night a hunter. No rhyme or reason to it.
As Labersin said, it seems to be one person any given night for the entire night, and has no correlation to what that person is doing at any given time. The night it was our hunter, who does the MD of Capernian to our lock tank in the back during Phase 1, every attempt that night she would Fireball him first as he MD'd before running off. Any other night, she just ignores him and follows the MD threat as normal.
I'd have to ask my MT, but I think Kael himself simply aggros at the start of Phase 4 on whoever started the encounter. We had a problem one night where when he popped in Phase 4 he fireballed one of our rogues (who had started the encounter, and who was standing about 10 yards away not doing anything) before the MT could get a shield bash on him, so from then on we've had the MT start the encounter.
We just plan for this and counterspell/earthshock the first fireball and the tank is ready to shieldslam. I do think that he nukes the person who starts the encounter though, because he would always target me first and I was always the one who started the encounter.
We killed Kael last week, and our 2nd kill took just 3 tries.
Phase 1, standard stuff. Make sure to use a conflag tank on Capernian and it will make things much easier (less aggro switching and dumps).
Phase 2, hunter tanks the bow. Ret pally tanks the mace. Prot warrior tanks the dagger and staff (with a rogue on kick duty on the staff if it novas and goes to range and casts). Prot paladin tanks the sword+shield (was very nice for tanking the shield). Feral druid tanks the axe. We have all ranged dps focus down the bow first, then AoErs get bloodlusted and go nuts. Shadowpriests and hunters then focus down the staff. Hunters then move to the shield, shadowpriests on the axe. Melee kills the mace first, and then gets on the shield. Everything was dead before phase 3. Assign the healers on the warlock Capernian tank to healing the bow+mace tanks to free them up for positioning for phase 3.
Phase 3, prot paladin tanks the engineer. Prot warrior tanks Sanguinar. Warlock tanks Capernian. We assign one primary healer on each tank, with a secondary healer in each area for raid healing and assistance on the tank. Make sure to spread staff users around appropriately (secondary healers are encouraged to pick up the staff to use during phase3). Everything was dead before phase 4. The most important thing is to have intelligent kiters, and high dps. We had a rogue following Thaladred ready to vanish if he got marked, and hunters on Sanguinar, to keep the caster and melee weapon buffs active. Kite away from Sanguinar and Capernian if you can help it, and the entire raid has to pay close attention to Thaladred and be ready for him to switch to you. Melee/hunters kill Sanguinar then Engineer. Ranged kill Thaladred then Capernian. Shadowpriests kill Thaladred then engineer (not enough range to avoid conflag on Capernian).
Phase 4, prot paladin and feral druid both tank phoenixes. Sheep MC'd people, with one rogue assigned for dispel duty (we found this to be a nice balance). Prot warrior on Kael. We just offtanked phoenixes until they killed themselves, then burned down the eggs. We had 3 healers on the main tank, 1 healer on the offtanks, 2 healers on the raid.
Phase 5, just make sure a mage is ready to counterspell the first fireball so Kael runs to the MT. Phase 5 was really easy...still dps down the eggs and spread out during gravity lapse.
I guess my reason for asking is has anyone been able to reliably control this?
It appears to always target the person who first zoned into the instance. We had problems with the engineer bombing people at the start of P3, but now we always have the MT (Me) the first to zone in. All of the advisors at the start of P1 and P3 will always target me, if only for a split second before threat comes into play. It helps control that aspect of the fight immensely. Of course, problems arise if the MT has to release or goes LD. It's a pain to have everyone zone out, but it's probably worth it if you're having issues like we were.
It appears to always target the person who first zoned into the instance.
yes. after more testing. it appears to be whoever has been in the zone the longest, so if the main tank dies but gets a res not everyone has to zone out and back in (provided he was the first into the raid initially). but using this has given our dps the little extra time to dps telonicus so we can have him down within one "toy" so less chance for it to be a tank. and can avoid random fireballs in the grand astromance's introduction.
Our guild started working on Kael about a week or so ago now (two weeks of total time on him with the reset today).
I've been lurking this thread for much longer than that now, trying to absorb as much as possible about the fight and the various ways people are doing things, but I think it may have actually hurt me in the long run as now that we're having our own specific problems I find myself questioning whether the issue lies in our strategy... or simply somewhere else.
I know this isn't necessarily considered the proper place to do this, so feel free to ignore it, but here is a link to last night's attempts on him (Kael). We have yet to reliably get through phase 2 with enough weapons down for it to not be more or less an insta-wipe.
Our strategy is currently AOE-based as TBH we're bringing an average of 6-7 AOE per night to the raid... and the single target strat failed spectacularly when we decided to give it a shot on the off-chance that it worked. One side note I'll throw in with that particular WWS parse is that one of the warlocks, Kailis, was only present for the final two attempts or so.
I guess what I am wondering is: is there a specific "method" or "rotation" for AOE'ers other than that which seems relatively obvious (SoC spam, etc.) that made a significant difference in getting the adds down on time for anyone else? Likewise, was there anything specific about killing the bow that expedited the process for any groups who had trouble with it previously? We've told the DPS *multiple* times to blow every cooldown on it, and while they claim to be doing so, we're not sure if the bow is dying fast enough reliably on our attempts.
I apologize if this seems overly redundant; again I have been lurking this thread for the last 5 - 10 pages or so and I have searched various terms within the thread already... but I felt that at this point our situation merited a specific post. If it doesn't, feel free to take whatever action is fitting.
The only change we really made in regards to the usual AoE tactic is that we tell our Mages and Warlocks to start AoEing once the bow reaches 50% health, instead of when it dies. This had a lot to do with the fact that on our initial attempts on the encounter, the bow simply seemed to take too long to die.
There's also the usual note of whether you're sure Curse of Shadows is up on all the weapons; it's a benefit that's pretty large.
I guess what I am wondering is: is there a specific "method" or "rotation" for AOE'ers other than that which seems relatively obvious (SoC spam, etc.) that made a significant difference in getting the adds down on time for anyone else? Likewise, was there anything specific about killing the bow that expedited the process for any groups who had trouble with it previously? We've told the DPS *multiple* times to blow every cooldown on it, and while they claim to be doing so, we're not sure if the bow is dying fast enough reliably on our attempts.
What worked for us was to use a mix of AOE and singletarget. Straight out AOE was so manainefficient and made picking weapons up a mess.
We have our casters nuke bow whilst melee goes to town on mace and bladeflurry/WW etc on whatever is near. The second bow goes down locks start SoCing staff like mad whilst mages/shadowpriests singletarget it (whilst SP keep SP etc on shield). When staff dies the SOC spam should've helped our melee sufficiently enough to get it all down and casters go on axe.
We have a very very solid melee group of 3 rogues, enhancement shaman and dpswarrior that dish out some very high dmg though.
Our guild started working on Kael about a week or so ago now (two weeks of total time on him with the reset today).
I've been lurking this thread for much longer than that now, trying to absorb as much as possible about the fight and the various ways people are doing things, but I think it may have actually hurt me in the long run as now that we're having our own specific problems I find myself questioning whether the issue lies in our strategy... or simply somewhere else.
I know this isn't necessarily considered the proper place to do this, so feel free to ignore it, but here is a link to last night's attempts on him (Kael). We have yet to reliably get through phase 2 with enough weapons down for it to not be more or less an insta-wipe.
Our strategy is currently AOE-based as TBH we're bringing an average of 6-7 AOE per night to the raid... and the single target strat failed spectacularly when we decided to give it a shot on the off-chance that it worked. One side note I'll throw in with that particular WWS parse is that one of the warlocks, Kailis, was only present for the final two attempts or so.
I guess what I am wondering is: is there a specific "method" or "rotation" for AOE'ers other than that which seems relatively obvious (SoC spam, etc.) that made a significant difference in getting the adds down on time for anyone else? Likewise, was there anything specific about killing the bow that expedited the process for any groups who had trouble with it previously? We've told the DPS *multiple* times to blow every cooldown on it, and while they claim to be doing so, we're not sure if the bow is dying fast enough reliably on our attempts.
I apologize if this seems overly redundant; again I have been lurking this thread for the last 5 - 10 pages or so and I have searched various terms within the thread already... but I felt that at this point our situation merited a specific post. If it doesn't, feel free to take whatever action is fitting.
Thanks.
I looked at some of your better attempts on the WWS log, you are missing out on Curse of Shadows. Absolutely do not underestimate the importance of this. You need CoS on ALL weapons, we have a lock specifically assigned for this. Even better, have that warlock spec Malediction
After 3 days now on Kael we have seen him to 73%. Phase 2 we do is everyone nuke staff and casters pick it up and move to single nuke bow while melee have fun with the Mace. The bow and mace dies and the AOE the last 4 weps. We enter Phase 3 with the Axe and Shield alive, we send out casters to nuke down the Axe and then Thaladred. Every guild has its way, this currently works for us but hoping we can get the %'s down even more by P3. Practice practice practice, getting better.
We currently deciding whats best for us during Phase 3 to make Phase 4 more and more often. We did do Telonicus with 1 hunter for bow debuff and 4-5 Melee and all casters and the remaining hunts to Thaladred with the dagger debuff on him. But sometimes our Sang Tank is gazed and has a hard time moving with his healers to avoid Thaladred... So now we looking to see if Sang focused by melee first is better for us. Kill Thala and Sang, then casters off the Cap while hunts, SP and melee to Telonicus, imo telonicus is no threat whatsoever (due to staff taking away the toy debuff) to the Raid so he can be left alive and taken out during Phase 4... Since telonicus is close to Kael its only like a 3 sec run to him and back.
We have Cap to south of the room, tele to the left of Kaels platform, Thala hopefully stays around center area while Sang is to the right pocket near the door.
We have our Mages/Warlocks start on the bow, but they switch off and start AOE at about 1:25 left till Phase 3. Usually the bow is around 50% at that point, the hunter tank and any single target ranged (Shadow Priests, elemental Shaman, other hunters) finish it off while the AOE starts. I've found calling for AOE at a set time is alot more useful than waiting to burn the bow to death....if your a little slow on bow DPS, the hunter tank will still kill it by the end of the phase...if your slow on AOE, you're wiping.
Keep in mind when you are assigning your single target DPS, you don't want to be wasting any. Single target DPS on the staff, for instance, is wasted....the staff has so few hitpoints that the AOE is going to kill it anyway well before the timer hits.
Response to Dynasty:
I really think you guys could do better in Phase 2 by ignoring the staff...since you AOE stuff anyway, let that AOE hit the staff...it will kill it before it kills any of the other weapons. Unless you are having big healing problems from the staff, having your ranged single burn it from the start is just wasting their time, they might as well just be standing around.
Last edited by Orestus : 11/06/07 at 9:32 AM.
Reason: response to above post.
Ye we could try that just thought the staff would help the AOE dmg etc, but hey we learning so I guess we can try that tonight and see which is better for us, try before reset, got nothing to lose. Im guessing have melee start on mace first with AOE moves too or?
We have our melee start on the mace, yeah. I would think the optimal set up from an AOE point of view is to have melee start on the mace, and ranged start on the bow (since it will never be AOE'd) just long enough for the tanks to get solid aggro....as soon as they have that, AOE should start....when the mace dies, have melee go to the sword and ranged single target DPS go to the shield. (The daggers and staff will die from the AOE on their own).
Your AOE should wrap up when you have just the axe, shield, and sword still alive, the sword will likely be very low. Finish off the sword, then the shield, then if you have time, the axe.
Well as I said currently we do our way with 2 weapons alive, but this way would most likely get bigger %'s off the Axe and the Shield. So the ranged have less time killing the axe so they will maximise their time on Thaladred cuz he's just a pain in the behind and is the only thing that really annoys me in Phase 3. Thank you for the helpful information on the weapons I'll test out this way and hopefully see better %'s and try do Sanguinar first and report back tomorrow (if possible) on how I think this way will do us. Might give an insight for others too. But like Vashj, this fight is how your Guild wants to do it, every guild has a different way, which is great.
Thanks for the tips guys, we'll implement the stuff suggested here and see how it goes.
As an aside, we had some discussion about CoS going on prior and basically while we all more or less agreed that it was needed there seemed to be confusion amongst the warlocks initially as to who amongst them should CoS, and how they should work it into their AOE rotation if at all.
I think calling out the AOE switch at a specific time may end up making a big difference for us and that'll definitely be the first thing we change.
We start with all ranged on the bow which dies in about 20 seconds, melee is split between the staff and mace to interrupt casts. The 20 second head start allows the tanks to get a nice aggro jump before AoE kicks in. Single target casters like shadow priests will simply assist train down mace>dagger>shield while AoE is going. By having the bow down quickly, it minimizes the chance of multi-shots on the raid and lets the hunters loot the bow and apply the debuff quickly.
The real beauty of this fight is how you can tailor a strat according to the raid make-up of the night and it will work.
11/01/07, 6:38 PM
just thought the staff would help the AOE dmg etc, but hey we learning so I guess we can try that tonight and see which is better for us, try before reset, got nothing to lose. Im guessing have melee start on mace first with AOE moves too or?
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