I never bin there since 2.4. But i think the changes for the global cooldown is wery nice for using Bloodlust in P2 for AoE.
What will help in P2: think on the biggest Damage machine: AoE. Think about it as in therms of DPS, the more targets you have, the more DPS you will make. We allways kill Bow first, after that we have everyone non AoE class Focus on different target. And also 2 or 3 roaming DPS who will go on the weapon with most Hitpoints left, just remember the Core Hound Pacs between Luci and Magmadar.
Usualy if you have 3 or 4 Tanks (beside the Warlock), you will have more than one free Tank in P4 for the phoenix. If one Tank ist MC, tell the other to take the phoenix. And Tell you're Off Warries and Rogues to help decursing if nececary (try to ceep Rogues on Kael for kick).
And for the funny part not knowing what happens in P5, well, do you're homeworks and blame the Raidleader! I found this encounter to be a RaidLead encounter. We hear many time of DPS Encounter, Resicheck, or Tank, another Healer encounter. This one will test you're Raidleader and Officers.
As far as our setup is concerned, Kael was tanked where he originally stands (not sure what you call the North wall).
I would grab the phoenixes from where they spawn (never really far away from Kael) and run toward the section that is between the 2 entrances (where we tank Capernian).
Thanks =) Okay I understand. Our raid is spread out facing kaels original location. So kiting them to your Capernian wall (south, on the minimap...) would be "through the raid and back". So we were going left / right but thats not long enough at all.
Originally Posted by Surreptitious
We got through p4 cleanly the second time we saw it (last night) after spending 3-4 nights worth of attempts in p2/p3 (mostly pre-2.4). We got to p5 with everyone alive, however, nobody knew what to do in p5 and we thought there would be a gravity lapse immeditely. Everyone started running out while the main tank was near Kael and he got no heals. Yeah, wiping in p5 is not fun.
Ugh that had to be dissapointing. We saw phase 5 several times; two were brute forced with only a handfull of people alive, and one time he bugged out like said. Our kill attempt, we got to 5 with 23 alive and it just kinda clicked.
Originally Posted by Surreptitious
We made sure all the tanks got Free Action Potions in case of getting toyed in p1. That way we only had to wait till they had 30 seconds left in their toy.
Interesting. I never thought of that. I use those on Vashj sometimes if we only took couple pally.
Originally Posted by Surreptitious
After this, we burned all bloodlusts and AOE'd the rest of the weapons down, with single target DPS moving to the mace then staff and daggers. Using this strategy we had nearly all the weapons down by the start of p3. Healers would frequently loot extra weapons to carry them to the appropriate p3 tank.
We use fire elementals in PH2, but we save cooldowns, heroism etc for phase 3. We found it didnt make much different on the weapons phase; they still died. That gives us an extra "oomph" to get rid of our biggest phase 3 problem - Thaladred.
Originally Posted by Surreptitious
After Thaladred went down, we had caster DPS move to Capernian. She would die realtively quickly, after which caster DPS would move to Sanguinar while melee dps would be near Kael. We always started p4 with Sanguinar at about 50% getting nuked down by ranged dps with the other advisors down.
We do it like this, and have the MT putting dagger on thala of course. This worked really well. Initially we had all players go to same targets, but doing this was a great change to our strat:
Melees+one hunter+staff buffer: Telonicus------>Sangiunar
Casters and ranged: Thaladred------->Capernian
Started getting all four advisors down with 20s until kael comes out. It helps worlds, especially since our capernian tank has her 1/3 dead or something before the casters get there. While waiting for Kael I often here both advisors death emote at the same time XD Anyway, good luck hope you get him soon.
Hi, just posting to thank you everyone for the input on this thread, we downed him this week and some tips I got here were precious.
We started recently as a guild, we are a late night raiding guild, so we are getting all the nerfs, but even so kael proved to be as challenging as everyone said he would be (we needed about 4 full runs on him).
Just some pointers I didn’t found here yet.
We started using aoe and were doing well, but then we changed to single target using heroism at beginning of phase. Using single target we found it easier to drop one healer and go with 6 only, which then helps the entire fight.
Kill order Bow->Axe->staff and then the others.
What made things really easy was to assume shield would be taken at beginning of phase 4. This way main tank tanked it till melle was free to take it down. Distributing dos this way made things so quick that we found ourselves having to leave carpenian being tanked by the shaman (we use an elemental for this, works very well) the last 5% so kael didn’t poped before time and we had time to finish the shield before he came. Didn’t found it anywhere but kael comes no matter what if tha last advisor goes down.
Something we are wondering and google/search option did not answer.
It may sound as stupidly as it looks, but does [Medallion of the Alliance] work against his mindcontroll?
Somehow we think it does not, since it's noted nowhere.
Anyways, we'll be trying it tomorrow night.
Quick Question and I apologize if this was posted somewhere earlier in the thread, I tried search and couldn't find it.
We went back tonight for our first attempts since our main tank transfered off server and we used an arms warrior who respeced to tank it. But my question is It feasible to only bring 2 tanks and 6 healers to Kael'thas? It seemed that only up until phase 4 the warrior didn't really have much to do.
We have a Protection Pally AoE tank all the weapons except for the Axe/Staff/and Bow. I (feral druid) tank the Engineer during phase 1 and 3, the axe in phase 2, and the phoenixes in phase 4. If the Pally tanks phase 4, which he is more then capable of doing we could have the warrior respec back arms and just throw on a shield to chase thaladred around with the daggers during phase 3.
This would free up another dps slot for easier handling of the weapons/advisors.
2 tanks is doable if you can stack alot of weapons on one tank (which works fine with a Paladin). If you don't have all the weapons down before phase 3, you will have to tank the remaining weapons as well as the advisors, but this too shoulld not be a major issue. Without a third tank, you don't have anyone to chase Thaladred around with the daggers for the caster-debuff, which can hurt. You can assign a Rogue or DPS Warrior to do this, but they'll have a slight risk of getting killed when they get gazed.
Summary: 2 tanks can do the job just fine, but there are a few things to consider when using only 2.
2 tanks is doable if you can stack alot of weapons on one tank (which works fine with a Paladin). If you don't have all the weapons down before phase 3, you will have to tank the remaining weapons as well as the advisors, but this too shoulld not be a major issue. Without a third tank, you don't have anyone to chase Thaladred around with the daggers for the caster-debuff, which can hurt. You can assign a Rogue or DPS Warrior to do this, but they'll have a slight risk of getting killed when they get gazed.
Summary: 2 tanks can do the job just fine, but there are a few things to consider when using only 2.
Also you'll have no backup tank for the phoenixes in phase 4 if the phoenix tank gets MC'd. You might want to be prepared to kite.
The big problem with 2 tanks is going to be phase 3 and 4, actually. It's very rare and difficult for a guild that's learning the encounter to get all of the weapons down in time AND get tanks positioned correctly. We've found that the shield and something else area always alive at the end of phase 2. While the shield doesn't do that much damage, you have to remember that people (not necessarily your prot paladin) are going to get feared with two mobs beating on the tank. The damage IS substantial enough to be able to kill you.
Ranged DPS focus-fire down the bow at the start.
Melee DPS focus-fire down the mace at the start.
AoE goes nuts after that (with bloodlusts and everything).
Classes that can't chain AoE (Boomkins, hunters, elemental shamans) are told to focus down the AXE between their cooldown timers. This'll leave plenty of time for me (warrior) to pickup the warrior and the feral druid to pickup the engineer. Prot paladin will still have the shield beating on him into phase 3, and he'll be putting up the daggers debuff on Thaladred.
In phase 4, you're going to run into the problems of your phoenix tank getting MC'd. If you're still going to go into it with only two tanks, however, you should have your DPS burn down the phoenix after initial agro is established. Still can't ignore the pyroblast bubble though.
Prot paladin will still have the shield beating on him into phase 3, and he'll be putting up the daggers debuff on Thaladred.
Paladins can't wear daggers, so this won't work.
I've never done it with 2 tanks, but I'd say it's definitely worth a try. I'd say it's only worth it if the extra dps from that tank spot results in all the weapons being dead before the next phase starts.
As for MCs and bird tanking, that was a worry even with extra tanks in my experience. Don't think it'll change much with one less tank.
Ah, correct, my fault. We'd had a warrior throw on a shield, stack it up, and run.
Funny enough, we did end up bringing even as far as 4 tanks to this fight on some attempts if I remember correctly. There's no real "DPS race" element to it, even though it feels like there is. As long as you pack in 2-3 mages and 2-3 warlocks, along with a few support (boomkin, elemental shaman), you're going to get almost all of the weapons down save for the shield. And no matter what strategy you use, phase 3 is almost always going to end with the raid beating on the Engineer up front.
It really is a survival fight more than anything. There are a lot of things that can quickly kill you in every phase. The "hurry hurry hurry" mentality that we walked in with was a bad one, because ultimately a 2-3k dps difference in the raid isn't going to make a significant impact on where you end up in the fight. You'll still have the shield up. You'll still have the engineer up. The only important "benchmark" to make is being able to burn down the engineer before Kael starts casting mind-controls or phoenix's, which is 20-30 seconds in.
On the fights where we did bring the extra tank, you'll find that tanks make fantastic mc dispellers. Our 2nd prot warrior just went around spamming his low-rage hamstring and devestate. Because he hits for shit, it's a very nice dispell.
Last edited by Blacksen : 08/06/08 at 3:39 PM.
Reason: Adding another note on more tanks
Ah, correct, my fault. We'd had a warrior throw on a shield, stack it up, and run.
Funny enough, we did end up bringing even as far as 4 tanks to this fight on some attempts if I remember correctly. There's no real "DPS race" element to it, even though it feels like there is. As long as you pack in 2-3 mages and 2-3 warlocks, along with a few support (boomkin, elemental shaman), you're going to get almost all of the weapons down save for the shield. And no matter what strategy you use, phase 3 is almost always going to end with the raid beating on the Engineer up front.
It really is a survival fight more than anything. There are a lot of things that can quickly kill you in every phase. The "hurry hurry hurry" mentality that we walked in with was a bad one, because ultimately a 2-3k dps difference in the raid isn't going to make a significant impact on where you end up in the fight. You'll still have the shield up. You'll still have the engineer up. The only important "benchmark" to make is being able to burn down the engineer before Kael starts casting mind-controls or phoenix's, which is 20-30 seconds in.
On the fights where we did bring the extra tank, you'll find that tanks make fantastic mc dispellers. Our 2nd prot warrior just went around spamming his low-rage hamstring and devestate. Because he hits for shit, it's a very nice dispell.
The engineer up? Really? We always had Capernian up. Melee can safely beat on the engineer while Thaladred is being killed (if they're on Sanguinar they could get feared at a really bad time).
I just wanted to thank everyone for your replies, we killed Kael for the first time as a guild and removed the 2.3 hero label that we had on us and replaced it with Hand of Adal.
For anyone else attempting in the future we managed to kill Kael with 2 tanks (Paladin/Druid) and 6 healers. The paladin tanked Kael in phase 4 and 5 and we had enough dps to interrupt the shield every time. Dropping a healer and tank is what put us over the top DPS wise. We had the weapons down before the advisors popped and the advisors down with 30 secs left on Kael's timer.
But thanks again for the replies and good luck to those attempting Kael in the future.
I just wanted to add my thanks. We're a casual progression guild (2 nights/week), so we didnt get to Kael prior to Hyjal attunement being removed. Thus we killed Archimonde and then went back for Vashj/Kael in the last couple weeks.
So, what worked for us? We found 5 AoE to be enough (3 mages and 2 locks), but we do have a fair amount of Hyjal/BT gear, so guilds without this advantage probably want 6 AoE'ers. We ran with 7 healers, but could have done it with 6 or even 5, but again we're kinda cheating gear wise by going back to get them after a couple months in Hyjal/BT.
We used 4 tanks (Holy Pally (FR), Feral Druid, Prot Warrior x2).
Tanking:
Holy Paladin - P1 Conflags, P2 AoE Weapons, P3 Conflags
MT Prot Warrior - P1 No Assignment, P2 Devastation behind Kael, P3 Debuff Thaladred, P4 Kael, P5 Kael
OT Prot Warrior - P1 Telonicus, P2 Phaseshift Bulwark, and any other weapon in the pile to cut down on dmg to the pally, P3 Telonicus
Feral Druid - P1 Sanguinar, P2 Staff, P3 Sanguinar
Warlock - P1&3 Capernian
We also had a hunter tank the bow, and a Fury warrior tank the Cosmic infuser (just normal DPS gear and no shield)
We liked Bloodlusting 10 seconds or so into P2.
Positioning we killed Thaladred in the back corner near VR entrance, Sanguinar near Solarian entrance, Telonicus up front, and Caperian in the far back left. We had the Sanguinar tank drag him up front right once Thaladred was down. That way the melee DPS had a short transition once Telonicus died.
Debuffing Thaladred as a prot warrior was easy. You really dont have to get out as you can pretty easily be healed through the bleed if he does hit you. Staying in and keeping him stationary bought the rest of the raid time to make sure they were far from him.
The engineer up? Really? We always had Capernian up. Melee can safely beat on the engineer while Thaladred is being killed (if they're on Sanguinar they could get feared at a really bad time).
To each his own I guess.
That's funny - we always went the completely opposite way. We killed Sanguinar first and then Capernian. Tremor Totems were our saving grace against a bad glare. Usually we tanked him behind Kael (kinda where the bow spawns) while ranged kite Sanguinar farther away.
Congratz to the 2 posters above on getting him! He's definitely one of the harder fights in WoW.
04/16/08, 9:58 AM
Yeah, wiping in p5 is not fun.
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