TBC has been out for long enough now that I think we have some reasonably good perspective specifically on the 5-man dungeons it offers (Heroics and non). I was having some discussions about this, and noted some comments people had made on this board (particularly about how great BRD is). The general feeling, as I saw it, is that TBC 5-mans generally have the pre-TBC instances nailed from a gameplay perspective; the bosses and trash are more dynamic and interesting, and the experience is fairly streamlined. However, TBC instances fall *way* short of pre-TBC ones in terms of depth, and that involves lore, complexity, architecture, and generally just stuff to do and see. This is basically what I noted on the topic.

I'm not entirely sure whether this is just nostalgia, but new dungeons just feel paper-thin compared to the older ones (high level ones anyway, obviously some of the 20-40 instances were pretty terrible). You enter the instance, and then you're basically on a straight line to the boss. You have no choice in what direction you take; not really much of a choice in what mobs you kill. There's nothing to explore, no alternate quests to do, you're just gunning for the last boss and killing everything in your way. There might be some lore behind the instance, but at no point are you really even encouraged to figure out what that is.

Blackrock Spire and Blackrock Depths were completely different. There weren't really clear paths through the instance, so unless you had a "guide" of sorts then you were forced to explore a little bit. There were tons of quests from various places in the game world, and chances are good that at some point on even your 10th or 20th run through those instances that you found somebody doing something new that you'd never seen before. There were bosses in remote corners of the instance, profession- or class-specific quests, summonable monsters, a coherent, lived-in feel to a lot of the environment, and in general the impression that there's more to the instance than you can get out of one or two visits. Even if some of these elements were ultimately trivial, it was there to be experienced and make it feel like you weren't just on rails on some theme park attraction.

Somebody here made the comment that BRD is probably the best instance in the game, maybe the best dungeon in any RPG, and I tend to agree. Huge variety of locales and enemies, with many interlocking paths that somehow manage to never feel too arbitrarily maze-like. A lot of quests that describe or suggest the underlying lore for the place, and a lot of neat stuff to do. Frankly I think the BRD lead-in is one of the few redeeming qualities to Molten Core. This was an actual dwarven city for your party to adventure in (the opposite of stuff in Tempest Keep, where there is literally nothing to do except run down the track and kill bosses you'd never heard of).

Unfortunately, that opinion is a little bit unpopular. I think that freedom made it one of the least-liked instances in the game for many people. People had their quests that they wanted to get done lickety-split, drops they wanted to bag, and attunements to complete before raids, but then there was a *huge* instance in front of them that they didn't really even know how to start with. You couldn't really just go into BRD and do all your quests in one sitting because there was just too much to do in it (unless you far out-geared the instance, in which case you could do whatever you wanted and mobs would fall over dead). It was too open-ended, and if you were used to knocking out an instance in an hour then you were going to come out of it very disappointed. It just wasn't very goal-oriented. I'm willing to bet that a majority of end-game players went into TBC without ever fully wrapping their heads around all the stuff in BRD, or knowing how to get anywhere in it. The same story for LBRS, or some of the pathways in UBRS (for example, basically everyone jumped off of a ledge at one point in that instance; out of dozens of runs, I only went around once). Stratholme was a little more direct, but it still gave the feel that you were exploring a relatively small segment of a ruined city. Of course, BRD definitely had the worst loot out of all of the "end-game" instances, so that didn't help its cause much.

Nevertheless, TBC feels very confined, by comparison. It feels like you're stuck on a little island (which you are), when it's that much more interesting to be immersed in a living, breathing world. There's some cool stuff to see, but once you're done, you don't feel like there's more to it.

Even so, you've got stand-outs. Durnholde is one of the most action-packed experiences in WoW to date (and also one of the very few examples in TBC instances where you get to poke around, with Old Southshore), along with Black Morass (although it happens to have the most thoroughly uninteresting environment artwork). Tempest Keep does bring some pretty striking artwork to the table, even there's basically zero background beyond the basic notion of why it's there. Shadow Labyrinth presents coherent (and fun) bosses (it makes sense why they are where they are), even if their presentation isn't spelled out very well.

Obviously Blizzard has learned a thing or two about how to make engaging NPC configurations and encounters, and it seems pretty clear to me that they consciously chose to keep the lore and exploration build-up mostly centered on outdoor quest arcs (there are quite a few colorful quest lines outdoors, like the whole Oronok line), while leaving instances as more of a competitive, execution-based experience. However, I don't think this works as well as they might hope, because nearly all of these are heavily soloable, with a group quest or two at the conclusion. There isn't a "party of intrepid adventurers" as much as there is a "party of loot-collectors who are mildly annoyed at each other". The instances are challenging (especially in the case of Heroics) but not interesting.

Karazhan probably stands as the single real exception to this, with fairly meaningful bosses and some mildly non-linear decisions to make in progressing through the instance. Of course, due to its placement in the instance hierarchy it also has to adhere to fairly strict difficulty and timing requirements, so... it's a bit of a wash.

Having rambled on for quite some time, what do you see as the standout successes and failures in instance design?

I really like black morass and durnholde keep because they are fast paced and still relatively challenging (if you are newly geared).

The Case for Pirates, or "Why WoW needs Deadmines" is a good thread that contains many posts pertaining to this topic, you may want to post this there.

All BRD needed was some more explicit winging, like Dire Maul. In DM, you could be clear about whether you needed East, North or West. Same with whether you were doing Strat Scarlet or Strat undead.

If BRD had been slightly better broken down, you could have BRD Dungeons (entry regions), BRD Garrison (Shadowforge Gate through to Grim Guzzler) and BRD Palace (beyond the Guzzler). All you'd need in order to do this would be to have secondary instance exits, with appropriate keys required, to zone you straight into the three sections. Just like DM, you *could* clear the whole thing if you wanted, of course.

In general, the dungeons which worked best in pre-TBC were the winged dungeons. DM, Strat , SM.

Unfortunately, in pre-TBC, they chose to follow the much older type of winging seen in Scarlet Monastery, where the wings are in fact separate small instances. This IMO greatly reduces the grandeur and "feel" of the instance, for no good reason. To me, it feels like there are no winged dungeons in TBC - not one. What we have is lots of small linear dungeons, which is not the same thing.

I'd like to see a properly large and *genuinely* winged dungeon - i.e. multiple sections with different entrances which connect up inside the instance. There should be lots of quests leading into it, and preferably non-intuitive ways of interacting with the dungeon (Tribute run, hello!).

Karazhan's pretty close, but the lockout makes it pure hell to work with. I want something of similar size, similar numbers of bosses, similar degree of questing inside, preferably more.
And the sections should be separable - i.e. once you have a key for the side door you can get in through it at any point. That immediately makes it a properly winged dungeon rather than one long one - you have Lower Karazhan and Upper Karazhan. Don't care whether it's 5-man, 10-man or 15-man or (really) how good the loot is. Just give me a big dungeon with multiple wings, lots of questing and at most a 1-day lockout.

BRD is in some ways amazing. The instance is at least as big as one of the capitol cities in WoW, and I remember thinking one of the first times I went through it "If this weren't instanced it could easily be the capitol for a PC race". It has that kind of feel to it.

And it's kinda nifty as you go deeper in, you get more and more information about what's really going on in BRM. For a first-timer, the story of what's lurking deep below the mountain and what the Dark Irons really owe fealty to is pretty cool.

And I always did like the Lyceum, just in the sense that it was a room that turned everything WoW had taught me on its head. You don't want to stop, you don't want to be cautious and meticulous, you do want to be aggressive and keep pushing, because if you stop to drink and regroup you'll get swarmed.

On the other hand, I never liked how the place was laid out. It feels like a real city/mine/palace but it really is too damn big. While it's kinda cool that a new group has to explore the place, it's also a problem for most players when they agree to an instance run and the place takes them 3 hours because they don't know where to go.

I prefer the more compact dungeons, honestly. Partly because I don't have limitless play time, so I prefer instances that can be done relatively quickly with a good group. Slogging through piles and piles of Dark Irons gets old fairly quickly.

I strongly agree with what songster is saying; a large, seamless, but segmented instance can be much more of a work of art than the individual wings of SM (which is solid from a gameplay perspective but pretty boring). I also don't think you should always know where to go. In some instances, sure, you should have a clear path where to go. But I think you need some where you're basically forced to orient yourself and figure out where you're going. BRD is the king of aimless dungeons, of course, with BRS slightly less so, but being able to look down from UBRS and see the bottom of LBRS is classic. Even DM East and West give you some freedom. Being ushered around isn't particularly engaging in the long term, and TBC just goes way too far in that regard. It's pretty interesting that while they've made the instances much more difficult in general, they've also made them so painfully straightforward to navigate.

I think the general segmentation approach partially resolves what Alhena is saying as well, with there just being too much to do. I think it's really just an issue of finding ways to make players feel like they're part of a bigger world; when you're very clearly being led through a tunnel, then it breaks any sense of immersion or attachment to the world. Smaller chunks of gameplay is fine, but there's no reason to make those chunks be separated by an instance portal and invisible to each other, as well as devoid of background or purpose.

And yes, the Deadmines thread is pretty good. I should probably just move it there.

EDIT: Well, actually, the Deadmines thread proposes pretty much the opposite of what I pointed out was great about BRD/BRS; I suggest the need for some instances to have the sort of depth that you might expect out of a single-player RPG, while others should have a more intense, action-oriented feel (Black Morass being the highlight of that sort of thing).

I totally agree with you Nezralix, thanks for summing up. From my point of view, TBC Instances are more or less all the same. Zoneing in, trashmobs - boss - trash - boss - trash - boss. No events, no quests (every quest is about loot or killing a specific boss). No Grim Guzzler, Blackhand Event, Postmaster Boxes, Tribute Run or Kirtions. There is nothing like the Temple Event in Zul'Farrak or some other interactive parts. All Instances are very short (Crypts, Mechanar) with no different <ays to clear the dungeon or alternativ ways (yes, i love BRD). Its very sad to see how Blizzard make the game "Wide" and not "Deep". Okay, there are a loot of Instances, but if you ask me today "UBRS or Coilfang X / Tempest Keep Z", regardless of loot, money and reputation i would say UBRS. Caverns of Time are nice, but especially in Cot1, there could be a lot more of lore and stuff and not only Old Shoutshore.

IIRC Tigole recognised that TBC instances lacked a deep quest layout due to time constraints, and it acknowledged it as a mistake. For me, what kills some of the instances in TBC (excepting CoT which i find great, although disappointed that there isn't apparently any closure to the Infinite Dragonflight storyline) is the lack of lore surrounding them. Places like Stratholme or Scholomance had great characters and stories surrounding them (the Frostwhisper questline, the GORGEOUS Fordring questline, the alliance Onyxia questline... and yes, all the beautifully ladden system of quests and hints in Searing Gorge and BRD that lead to Ragnaros rising from his lava pit).

Now, there's something of all this scattered in there. The naga water extractors, the several Pathaleon apparitions while you level 60-70 (and which make his death very anti-climatic)... but it's all... unresolved. Only the Kael-tas storyline seems to be developed (haven't set up foot in The Eye, but everything before it is pretty interesting).

That's basically true, although it's surprising how many level 60 groups still had issues with it (running dwarves are serious business!). However, looking over all the drops there highlights one of the more interesting parts about the instance. People would go to kill Incendius for FR gear by unlocking the gate and metal door near the entrance (using a key gotten by doing a quest given to you by a ghost), running down a hallway, dropping onto an outcropping of rock under a window, jumping from that onto a bridge overlooking a huge molten moat, and then clearing some fireguards to his lair (which was a huge anvil on the same bridge overlooking *another* molten river). And having done that, you could sneak to the Molten Core attunement point (or the dark iron smelting point) by dropping down *into* the molten river and skirting from island to island.

Or, you could get to Incendius by clearing the arena event, killing a boss for fire resist gear by the arena spectators, clearing to the coffer area, continuing on through the coffer area to the golem manufacturing quarter (where you could kill another boss) that exited to Incendius' anvil. You could kill the coffer target and go back for a fire resist enchant, and if you had enough keys you could even open the coffers for another boss.

If you got the MC attunement point then you could continue on to the Lyceum (one of the most difficult but most fun 5-man events), kill a molten giant for a potentially rare drop, and then listen to the emperor while he applauds your killing of his advisors before you eventually kill him (and possibly rescue the princess too!).

There's just so much going on in that instance that it takes a huge amount of time until you really feel like you've seen it all. Which is a very unusual thing, and I suppose it does come at a cost, but I certainly think Blizzard has the ability to take great content like that and tweak it until it works.

I don't think the problem with TBC instances is limited to quest content; they're basically flat tunnels from boss to boss. They just feel small. It's kinda lame, but even dark/gated corridors that don't really lead anywhere make instances feel more interesting. There were paths through Stratholme that people basically never took that made the instance just *feel* like there was more to it then you could see in a single run-through, even if taking the left path meant you killed a few more monsters and one more boss and ended up in the same location.

I'm glad that the TBC dungeons are shorter, actually. They're still interesting without being a total chore to commit to (with obvious exceptions). BRD didn't work at all for me, because even though I wasn't concentrated on getting to 60 ASAP at that point and was looking for something epic, it was just too hard for the average bunch of low-50's players. It seemed designed with a 55 cap in mind but never quite made it to its proper place in the progression of classic WoW.

This is EXACTLY what is wrong with TBC instances, spelled out neatly. Thank you. Imagine if all of Auchindoun was instanced, the center of the circle was the quest hub / plot zone, and you explore from there; simultaneously, this would allow some more interesting scripting. TBC instances are downright claustrophobic until you get to the raid game, with the obvious exception of CoT which are of significantly higher quality.

I agree with most of what has been said here. I really liked the old instances. They were big and had a lot of places to look around. You could go off in multiple directions in some of them. With TBC it is mostly just a straight line you follow for rewards. I really wish they would have had the time (or patched in later) a lot of quests for each instance and added a bit of storyline to them. This would have helped a lot, for me at least.

One thing that hurts them a bit is there is no sense of "awe". When I first hit 60 instances were the endgame at the time, and working in a group was new. You just weren't sure what to expect all the time. Doing UBRS for the first time at 58 was a huge rush. This isn't really Blizzard's fault, we've just been through a lot over the years.

As for BRD, I loved that place my first run. I think I was up until almost 8am with some friends doing it. I couldn't believe I was up so late running it, but it was just so interesting and huge the first time I went there that I wanted to see what was coming up around the next corner.

I think most groups had a hunter pull Drakk way far away while you kill the others, and 1 tank can double-tank those pretty well...

On topic? I think that a large problem with the huge pre-TBC instances like Ulda or BRD was the difference in level between the beginning and the end. You can go into BRD at 50, but you can't do the last boss until significantly later. It's even worse with ulda, where the first trash is like 38 and the trash right before the last boss is 47ish. It's fun to have huge, expansive instances, but when you have to kill those mobs 10 levels below you for the first half of Ulda, you get pretty bored pretty quick.

My Rogue could tank one of the chromatics, the problem was Drakkisath himself and Conflagaration. It could be dealt with with a single tank, but most of the solutions honestly seemed like nothing more than brute force to me.

That was another big problem with pre-BC instances for sure. Ramparts wouldn't have been nearly as popular if it had been "Wander into HFC, blunder about for a bit until you find Ramparts" and Shattered Halls would have been far less popular if you had to clear a good portion of Ramparts to get there.

I think you folks are forgetting a few things. Two of the best things about pre-BC instances were really small simple things that made a difference. First rare spawn bosses. Seeing a new boss, with new loot, every 5-10 runs really made your day. Especially since often they dropped more unique things you couldn't get other places. Also events like the postmaster even though everyone hated them were still nice. Because the thing is that pre-bc you might run an instance 50 times but it was a slightly different run most times. Maybe there was a rare spawn, maybe you wanted to do the event etc. The second thing is the rare drops. Having a really uber epic drop (for where it was in the progress and considering that you didn't have many epics), was really sick. A warrior running around with Black Blade of Shahram, a pally with Ironfoe. This was cool, this gave status. Instead you just run the instance until you get the loot you want (which will drop eventually). You run until you get revered for the key or exalted for the gear. And eventually everyone will have it. No real dedication or luck. The loot tables are very small. Heroics are just harder normals, but heroics aren't well done, they are just lets double the hp, multiple the damage by 1.5 BS. Look at ninja Gaiden Black. The higher difficulties were different. You had new encounters, new items, more mobs, different mobs, it was a different game (though really really really hard). Compare that to Titan difficulty in God of War 2 (where they took the heroicesque approach), and you can see the contrast. In God of War 2 titan mode wasn't fun at all. It was just anal. It didn't demand skill, just dieing over and over and over and over, and extremely conservative play (one person summed it up as "Block for 10 minutes, attack twice, repeat).

As a note pre-BC I think scholo disserves a lot of props. Especially before its difficulty was nerfed. It was hard. And it was fun. After they nerfed it it was much easier but still well done imo. Alexi Barov was interesting, gandling was interesting, and you could easily PuG it. If you had done it a lot you could summon kirtonos (very cool). The "Raz Frostwisper" quest line was a beaut, and it had two bosses who dropped an epic very rarely (and the Robe of the Void Pattern). The town outside with the invisible people was nice as well, and most of all it tied in. The instance made sense. It wasn't quite as tied in as the BRM stuff but you felt like you were doing something. Also it should be mentioned that early in the original game the argent dawn faction was very different from the current factions now. Getting exalted with the argent dawn wasn't a farm it for loot thing. It meant something in the lore. It was tricky and required thought. It wasn't just do X amount of runs and you have it. Everyone wasn't exalted.

I think the linear design of the TBC dungeons is what turns people off. There is only one way to reach the destination, and there is little fun in exploring the place, except the underwater dungeons.

And the lack of stealth farming that is also what made the rogue/druid classes fun.

Long quote, but it's worthy. Because this hit the nail on the head.

I've always felt AD faction was very special. Even in its day it was a unique faction that really stood out. Their quests were interesting. Their story was obscure when you started, but when it broadened out ...boy did it ever. The story of AD is deep, compelling and it ties in perfectly with their presence in the game. No faction in the game to date has felt as interesting or compelling as Argent Dawn. None. Think about it, and if anyone comes up with a more compelling one please post it. I've either forgot about it or I just simply adore the AD concept.

I really enjoy TBC content, honestly. But every poster here is right; it does not feel the same from a design standpoint as the old WoW. It doesn't even come close. TBC is much more streamlined. It screams "we designers have been there and done that and we have streamlined our design process", which lacks a degree of creativity. BRD was a bit much in size, so was ST. But really ...those are places I cherish because they taught me many things about the game as a whole. Most of all, they really cemented me in the story and provided immersion when I wasn't really seeking it. Well done stuff, and it's a shame to those ideas and lessons get tossed aside for a more expedient and streamlined experience.

I don't like the streamline experience of TBC at all. Some of the new zone to quest concepts are really neat (Nagrand comes to mind, as it starts off with lots of just easy grind, but ends on a buttload of excellent group quests with nice rewards). But other wise it is very streamlined. And that really is a negative for me.

Interesting that no one is talking much about Dire Maul here. Dire Maul in essence is the prototype of TBC instances. My memory is a bit fuzzy but as I recall I ran Dire Maul a few times and then never ran it again (well I solo'd some wings a few times but got bored of that quickly and stopped once I had enough cash). Whereas I would run strat/scholo/ubrs once in a while, for shards or rep or kicks. Was Dire Maul too far or was it a preview of how TBC would fare? Its also interesting that there are some TBC 5 mans that get groups easily, and others you could wait days to form a group - SLabs is easy, crypts forgetaboutit. Same with heroics, I think there are actually a few heroic instances I have never, ever run and I've collected 200+ badges.

IMO I think the 5 mans in TBC are fine for the most part, yes it would have been nice to have "winged" the instances so that ramparts/BF/shatt halls or arca/mech/bot are all in one instance and you can go in each one as a seperate direction, ala BRD, but lets be honest thats a very minor change and its probably done the way it is for performance reasons. I like how the very first time I zoned into SLab/Mech/etc my group wiped a lot, took 2+ hours to clear, etc but now I run those instances in under 30 minutes, and probably even faster in the future.

What they really need to spend more time on in the future is heroics and starter raiding. Karazhan is beautiful, obviously a bit more could have been done but all in all a great instance with multiple paths, stuff you can skip (but later wish you hadn't!), varied trash, varied bosses, and a semblence of story behind the instance (all those quests to talk to NPCs inside, quests outside, etc). They should have another dozen quests tied to Karazhan and they really should have added lore books inside (who else would hold up SM pulls just to read the books inside? lol).

By contrast SSC and TK are shit. I have no clue who the fuck these bosses or trash are in SSC or TK, why Hydross keeps spawning his little bastards and where they go, what the hell was the keying process about - why would some servant of an old Azeroth god be trapped in Slave Pens... and ask for stuff from Nightbane and Gruul... One really nice thing I liked in AQ40 as well was rep gain from trash/bosses. It really pisses me off that killing trash or bosses in SSC gives no Cenarion Expedition rep. Yeah after a few weeks you'll be exalted and not care anymore (and most people are probably exalted going into SSC), but its those little touches that make the game consistent.

Really felt like Blizzard worked backwards in 25 man raiding, they implemented all the bosses/trash first and then went back to retcon lore/quests/background around it, and when time ran out they just didn't bother even doing that part.

Aye, the rare spawns give bang for buck in terms of replayability and variety in instances. Will Jed Runewatcher be in UBRS this time, or Hearthsinger Forresten in Strat? Rare drops likewise, as long as they don't simply force you to grind for $item.

Summonable bosses (Vectus event and transforming Ras to human form both effectively count) and optional bosses are best of all - they give that kind of variability, but in a controllable manner. Do you go for Fra Siabi in Strat, or the Father Flame event in UBRS? Does someone need Jandice, or can we skip her? And so on.

Anzu and Yor are both steps in the right directions - they mean that one instance run won't necessarily be the same as any other. Another 1-2 summonable bosses or extra scripted events in each of the dungeons, and we'd be in a much better place.

That said, we mustn't lose sight of the fact that a lot of the old instances got done over and over because (for example) you might have run Scholo 25 times and still not seen your class headpiece drop. Now you don't have that many different class pieces on any one boss, you won't have that effect any more, and that's a good thing.

The other thread had a good point about the illusion of nonlinearity too. Something as simple as having two ways to go round the ring in Strat UD, for example. You go one way if you have AoE for the trap, or the other way if you don't. Even if there's no practical upshot to it, it preserves the illusion cloaking the rails from us. I don't mind rails in instance, to some extent, but naked rails are irritating.

Actually this is one of the stupidiest things about the entire instance. We're getting tons of Cenarion Armaments and Illidari tokens, and have 3 people in the guild who can use the flasks and about 10 who can use the armaments. For the guilds up and coming into SSC after the 2.1 patch, those that don't have the majority of their members with exhaulted rep in each faction, it seems stupid to not be gaining faction from killing these mobs. I gain faction for killing some stray dragon whelps in BEM, but not for slaying Lady Vashj?

I think it has been fantastic to move to shorter instances overall. It makes the game a lot more accessible to people who can't play in 4-5 hr blocks of time. I remember this as the reaction for people checking out the Ramparts. Sure, not the world's most exciting instance but you could blast through it quickly. The boss encounters have been fun and varied and given people who hadn't raided a taste of what some of the raid encounters were like. Those are all good things.

Sure, we could run Scholo quickly when we were geared up and knew it backwards and it had been nerfed, but it wasn't like that at the beginning. I also don't think any priest who was unlucky with tier 0 shoulders will at all miss 'optional' encounters like Father Flame that you had to practically blackmail your group to do.

But it's hard to keep the wings short without losing some depth. Some of the character in the old game was down to less streamlined design choices that everyone got used to. Some of it was down to lore being more intensely designed into the levelling game. But I don't think the TBC dungeons are any less deep than the Scarlet Monastery, for example. SM was pretty linear inside its wings, and it was one of the most popular instances in the game. The deadmines is a pretty linear instance.

So I don't think linearity or length is really that big a deal. I do miss BRD, I enjoyed that instance a lot and I'm still not sure I saw all of it. But Karazhan is the new BRD ... aside from not having a bar, which it kind of needs

fwiw, Gnomeregan is now one of my picks for well designed old-world instances. I didn't see it till I levelled an alt and ran that place with an appropriate levelled group of decent players. It was challenging and fun and everyone needed to be on the ball. Of all the old world dungeons, I think it's the most TBC in style. More mad gnomey instances, please!

Thinking about a number of things about this there is one thing that I think is a bit of a problem with the non-raid and heroic incounters. I think that the way they are itemized makes them much much less repeatable (not to mention how boring most of them are). There are two parts about this that stand out.

First I really feel even though the bosses had much larger loot tables pre-BC and you had to run the instances more I really don't think this is a bad thing. Post BC there can be entire instances that have not one good drop for your class due to the crappy itemization (stat point allotment), and the loot table size. Or you get a situation where the only loot you need is off the final boss. This is stupid imo. But as a lock almost every instance the only loot I actually want is off the final boss. What is the point of this. It makes the instance much much less fun because the element of mystery embedded in the large loot tables was cool. Yeah eventually I got everything I needed from Nerub but I still could get something cool off that ghost woman (don't remember her name). Also I think the itemization in BC is less creative. Especially for certain slots. Biggest of all is the trinket slot. I would say 50-75% of all caster trinkets are basically ToEP clones (talismen of Ephemeral power). I understand why blizzard did this. After all every caster loved the ToEP when there was one like it in MC. It was cool, it was the thing. Now that every trinket is Adds X crit/hit/spell damage and on use grants Y spelldamage and Z healing for 15 seconds. This is so lazy. This is so boring. The reason ToEP was good is because it was unique. Now you have me seriously thinking about using one of those mushroom trinkets from the underbog quest just because it is different. This is really dumb. Another important part of spreading out the itemization is making sure people don't have to ever do a rep run for no loot. The whole rep for heroics thing is really poorly done at its current stage for a few reasons. The biggest I'll illustrate through my experience. I've needed to get two 70 characters keyed for Heroic CFR. So at a certain point I had to run Steamvaults over and over. This wouldn't have been so bad except for the fact that neither character had one drop in the entire instance that she needed. This is piss poor game design. And this would be easy to solve. Just add some variety. One rare spawn, a few rare drops off bosses, whatever, but this would have been much less painfull with something to run for besides a slowly rising rep guage.

My second thing about itemization will be most likely controversial. But I strongly believe that blizzard shot both raiders and casuals in the foot with the way they itemized the burning crusade. I've been on both sides of the fence both pre and post burning crusade and I really liked the paradigm pre burning crusade better. Before the expansion if you didn't raid an epic was a really special thing. You would work for weeks or even months to get one if you didn't buy it. And when you finally finished you would get a real sense of accomplishment. They were both clearly better and showed that you had invested effort into them. When I saw a non-raider with 4-6 epics on them that were all BoP you bet I was impressed. More impressed even than when I saw a raider in with full slots of purple (unless it was something really special like a cutting edge tier or having a thunderfury or something). I think this was a good thing. With the Burning crusade the non-raid epics are basically blues dressed up in purple to make the "casuals" happy. First off I think that is a stupid term but that is beside the point. Pre-BC if you didn't raid and you got any epic made for your class (as long as it wasn't like level 40) at 60 it was a clear upgrade. And unless you bought it you had to work hard for it. Post-BC look at The Black Stalk. The epic wand from the final boss of UB. Okay, if I dps'ed with my wand that 150 spell damage would be cool. But I don't. And so it really isn't all that noticably better than a blue level 70 wand (say the ogrila rep one), which isn't all that noticably better than a green level 70 wand of the sorcerer. Yes the progression was always up and down but the item levels were different. In BC the item levels have exploded but the itemization is really stupid. Pre-BC item levels for raid items pretty much maxed out at around 80-90. Non raid items maxed out at 60-63 or so (if you were lucky). Post Burning Crusade the items all have so many stats on them that you can't help but compare the raid items to the non-raid. This is a problem. I believe this even though I sincerely wish there was a more even playing field. This is especially bad now that raiders will sometimes wear non-raid gear. The fact that now raiders are competing for the same gear and wearing it trivializes the effort you have to make to get it without the good guild, great gear etc. I'm kind of rambling but I think it was better before the expansion when everything was set in stone. If I wanted epics I could get a few before the expansion, with a lot of effort and commitment and I would be proud of them. It would show that I had worked for them and everybody would see (maybe a little exadgeration but I always noticed the really elite non-raiders, especially back before AQ40 and Naxx when the gear difference was less extreme and there were less raiders). The door is now half open and this is extremely frustrating to those who still can't get in.

In summary I my main point with that last section is blizzard needs to set some clear lines. I think it was good when peoples roles were defined. Now with this in between place and the fact that everyone and their mom is in Khara it feels like someone in a full set of instance and heroic gear is compared to someone in Khara/SSC gear (and this could get worse). The arena epics don't help and neither do the faction ones. Now anyone can get a ton of epics. They just need to farm them. I don't like the fact that you have guaranteed loot for time investment. This seems stupid and makes it so any asshole can play for a long time and get what they need. I liked it when if you didn't raid an epic meant something. Now what are you supposed to work for?

Finally I think that heroics are in a really bad in between place in difficulty. It is brutal that a heroic is semi-PuGable if you are lucky and a complete mongolian clusterfuck if you aren't. I strongly believe they need to be either guild/pre-made group only (and have loot to reflect that), or be easy enough to smurf with about 50% of the PuGs, rather than 15% or less. This doesn't even adress how poorly executed on so many levels the heroic consept is to begin with. Also they need to even the difficulty levels on heroics or clearly define the harder ones and make rewards to compensate. I have a lot more problems with this particular paradigm which I feel could have been mind blowingly cool and saved a lot of subscriptions, but instead due to rushed execution and rank stupidity is just horrible.

Also Hearthsinger Forenstein isn't a rare spawn. His location varies.