Gurtogg Bloodboil - Luck or Strategy? - Page 11

Buiden · 07/23/07, 2:58 PM

Anyone else notice you can resist insignifigance (with some talents, i.e. feral druid), seems like a significant finding, but probably unintended.

♦ Praetorian · 07/23/07, 3:01 PM

Originally Posted by Buiden

Anyone else notice feral druids can resist insignificance, seems like a significant finding, but probably unintended.

Doesn't surprise me -- a lot of quasi-debuff AoEs that are part of encounter scripting have problems with feral AoE avoidance.

My favorite is the fact that feral druids can resist the raidwide Protection of Elune at 10% on Archimonde. Checking the combat log after that one was a source of much amusement.

Kenco · 07/24/07, 8:03 AM

I'm certain that Bloodboil is dual wielding, but he doesn't appear to get the extra miss rate. I notice that for most DW bosses I am uncrushable due to dodge + parry + miss + block + 19% extra miss, but Bloodboil was crushing me regularly when i stopped casting Shield Block. Anyone confirm or deny?

dukes · 07/24/07, 8:12 AM

Originally Posted by Kenco

I'm certain that Bloodboil is dual wielding, but he doesn't appear to get the extra miss rate. I notice that for most DW bosses I am uncrushable due to dodge + parry + miss + block + 19% extra miss, but Bloodboil was crushing me regularly when i stopped casting Shield Block. Anyone confirm or deny?

this weeks bloodboil WWS

Expand melee and you'll see he had 7% miss, 6% parry and 34% dodge. The problem is that the fel rage targets will generally have less avoidance (we got a lot of healers so they were casting on themselves) and on the tanks scorpid sting and high defence ratings will throw the percentage off. I'm not sure whether he is or isn't classified as dual wielding to be honest, but that 7% miss rate (actual miss rather than combined avoidance) makes it look like he isn't counted as dual wielding.

Dots · 07/24/07, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by Kenco

I'm certain that Bloodboil is dual wielding, but he doesn't appear to get the extra miss rate. I notice that for most DW bosses I am uncrushable due to dodge + parry + miss + block + 19% extra miss, but Bloodboil was crushing me regularly when i stopped casting Shield Block. Anyone confirm or deny?

Yea, he seems to be dual wielding without any extra miss rate. The same is true for Illidan.

Kaethion · 08/07/07, 9:36 PM

I have a few questions for those guilds who do Gurtogg with 2 tanks.
Can you explain how you deal with the tanking rotations?
Is the offtank staying out of cleave range?
As one of the tanks, I've experienced some trouble when we use 2 tanks. In theory, it is very easy to do perfect rotations, but due to cleave giving debuffs to the OT, and MT getting knockbacked, threat/tank rotations get messed a little bit.
On one hand I want to stay away from the cleave in order to not get the debuff (acidic wound), but on the other hand I desperately need the rage from the cleave in order to keep up with the threat. We use Misdirects, and BoP on the MT whenever needed, but sometimes shadow priests are getting very, very high on threat, mainly due to VE healing the bloodboil groups.
What we aim for is the MT 1 to tank the first 30-40 seconds, then MT 2 till next 10-15 seconds into the next phase 1 (by this time the MT 1's debuff are gone, given he got none newly applied by cleave) and switch after 5-7 debuffs after that again. However, knockbacks and disorients being so unpredictable, kind of messes with our rotation.
Is it very recommended to use 3 tanks? I mean, we did lots of <40-50%, even 20ish% with 2 tanks, so it is doable, but it seems to me more of a gamble rather than safe strategy.
Also, if you use 2 tanks, do you have any dps'ers holding back (especially during the first minute)?
The main problem is, when we try to do it safe with "perfect" rotations, we get lower on the threat, and shadow priests reach us with their threat. When both tanks go all out on tps, we get very shaky and unstable rotations where the tanks sometimes get a huge amount of debuffs draining too much mana from healers, and a liability to die during fel rage phase.

We have yet to go there with an optimal raid though (3 tanks, 3 paladins), but seeing as we got a 20%ish it is very doable with 2 tanks (and 2 BoP's/paladins/blessings), however, is it a huge difference if we go for 3 tanks? To me it seems 3 tanks would just be the optimal if none of the offtanks eat the cleaves (and its debuff), whereas with 2 we are very much in need for rage boost.

Quigon · 08/08/07, 3:27 AM

The cleave applies debuffs? Are you sure about that? I was under the impression he casted the debuff - since it appears as a separate entity on my combat log. When I need rage, I stand in front of him to take cleave damage all the time - and have never noticed this. I'll edit this post later with more advice.

Clandestine · 08/08/07, 3:33 AM

Yeah the cleave can definitely apply debuffs somehow, we killed him the first time without noticing or being affected by it somehow, but every week since we've had to have our OT be to his side somewhere where he doesn't get cleaved.

We use two tanks. The DPS is all pretty threat capped, but it's not a DPS race in any event, the enrage timer is really generous. Your Shadow Priests shoudln't be using VE though, it will murder their threat, and hence their mana return due to VT. Bring more healers if you need to, we bring our average number of healers to bloodboil now (we bring 8 to just about every fight now), but for our first couple kils we brought 9 to help on the MT. The Bloodboil healing should be pretty easy, just work with groups till you find something that works.

bland · 08/08/07, 4:03 AM

I don't have experience other than one night which was our kill. But browsing the log, there is no ability "cleave" unless you mean Arcing Smash. Not trying to be anal, just technical here.

We also experienced refreshes on the Acidic Wounds on the OTs.
If it was high, they should stand behind, each dot tick should cover the rage they need.

If you don't mind me putting out too much data... Here is a following clip from WWS in which I became the MT a few seconds prior to Fel Rage and got 1 AW, and the clip starts a few seconds after I'm back to MT so my 1stack never wore off, hence the dot tick I kept in here.

04:31'56.011 Gurtogg Bloodboil's Melee dodged by Bland
402 Gurtogg Bloodboil's Melee hits Bland for 1721 (494 blocked)
964 Gurtogg Bloodboil's Acidic Wound dodged by Bland
04:31'58.120 Gurtogg Bloodboil's Melee parried by Bland
714 Gurtogg Bloodboil's Melee hits Bland for 1671 (364 blocked)
870 Gurtogg Bloodboil's Acidic Wound dots Bland for 254 Nature damage
04:31'59.683 Gurtogg Bloodboil's Melee dodged by Bland
314 Bland is afflicted by Acidic Wound
04:32'01.027 Gurtogg Bloodboil's Melee dodged by Bland
245 Gurtogg Bloodboil's Melee parried by Bland
839 Gurtogg Bloodboil's Acidic Wound dots Bland for 508 Nature damage

AW is acted upon me, no Arcing Smash hit/dodge/parry/miss proceeded it.

Here is another clip, where I am not currently tanking, but am in front of him.

04:30'45.214 Gurtogg Bloodboil's Arcing Smash hits Bland for 5315 (364 blocked)
464 Gurtogg Bloodboil's Acidic Wound dodged by Bland
_7second interval
04:30'52.261 Gurtogg Bloodboil's Arcing Smash dodged by Bland
_long interval before I become MT and no activity from Gurtogg to me
04:31'03.152 Gurtogg Bloodboil's Melee dodged by Ashra
527 Gurtogg Bloodboil's Arcing Smash hits Ashra for 4328 (364 blocked)
949 Gurtogg Bloodboil's Acidic Wound misses Ashra

A clip of Arcing Smash with a AW dodge immediately following, and an Arcing Smash with no AW attached. Then as MT comes melee, ArcSmash and AW!

Wow Web Stats
I am Ashra if you wish to double check.

My assumption - chance on hit. I don't have anything else.
My idea which is not substantiated - I only recall AW being reapplied on the OT and thus increasing the count, never having it applied to the OT as the first application of the debuff. Will peruse more logs.
My conclusion - If OT'ing and have high stacks, get behind him, you'll get your rage that you need. Don't want it to be refreshed nor stack too high for whatever reason he may.

edit- I sorted WWS log by Gurtogg as the Actor, his hits, and any type other than a DoT to not have every AW and Bloodboil listed.
When doing this, the only person ever listed to dodge/parry/miss an AW is the MT.
So new assumption, it is frontal cone and not a single target, though it is acted upon the MT only? I don't know.

Dots · 08/08/07, 4:08 AM

Acidic wound is a 100% proc on all of his attacks. However, you can dodge/parry/miss either the normal melee hit/Arcing Smash OR the proc itself. We use avoidance gear on both tanks since it gives you two chances to avoid the debuff every time.
And yes, if you want to be sure your debuff will not be refreshed, you have to stand on the side so Arcing Smash cannot hit you.

bland · 08/08/07, 4:23 AM

Originally Posted by Dots

Acidic wound is a 100% proc on all of his attacks. However, you can dodge/parry/miss either the normal melee hit/Arcing Smash OR the proc itself. We use avoidance gear on both tanks since it gives you two chances to avoid the debuff every time.
And yes, if you want to be sure your debuff will not be refreshed, you have to stand on the side so Arcing Smash cannot hit you.

I wouldn't say 100% - parsed log shows Arcing Smashes without Acidic Wound being applied/avoided. Nor does each hit the MT takes combined with an AW, as it accompanies some melee swings, but not all. In first clip I take a hit but no AW hit/avoid, then later dodge a melee as MT and am then afflicted by AW.

Mondragon · 08/08/07, 4:28 AM

After killing Archi last night, we went Bloodboil, the bane of one nights wiping , 34 or so days ago.

4 affliction locks, 3 healing shammys, frost mages all resulted in us killing him on our third attempt. Like Archimonde I felt like if we focused on staying alive during transitions we had this boss...and it seemed to work out.

Dots · 08/08/07, 4:40 AM

Originally Posted by bland

I wouldn't say 100% - parsed log shows Arcing Smashes without Acidic Wound being applied/avoided. Nor does each hit the MT takes combined with an AW, as it accompanies some melee swings, but not all. In first clip I take a hit but no AW hit/avoid, then later dodge a melee as MT and am then afflicted by AW.

It might not be 100%, can't be sure. That's the proc rate stated for Acidic Wound - Spells - World of Warcraft, and I can find an AW application or avoidance for every hit I took (but I only checked 1 combatlog).
The situation in your first quote is simply combatlog lag, that happens all the time.

bland · 08/08/07, 5:22 AM

Hmm, thanks Dots, I believe I was filtering too much for WWS to output the data I wanted the way I wanted. I switched to looking from Gurtogg's PoV and then from mine, and spliced the data together to get what could be 100%, though it is sometimes CombatLog lag which may over time correct itself, but looking at short snippets could be 75 to 100%, and if its 100% then it certainly could be.

Fafhrd · 08/08/07, 6:10 AM

After wiping on Archimonde 30 times in a row in the last two nights we finally got him down and went to try Gurtogg for the first time. I don't know if the Archi experience had sharpened the raids wits or something, but we got him down on our seventh try. There was definitely some luck involved with not getting more than one mage targetted for Fel Rage, at 25%, but doing the Bloodboil switches promptly, two shamans chainhealing the soakers (shamans are imba for this fight) and using three tanks, made the whole thing feel totally controllable.

The main problem we had was getting out of the way when he targetted the Fel Rage victim, got a couple people cleaved.

I was backup soaker, and at the end I had to take two Bloodboils in a row, which was still (barely) survivable with Drain Life + Siphon Life. And I have to concur with previous posters, a rogue with Evasion/AR up getting Fel Rage is pretty nice.