Your post seem to assume that his raid has a lot of paladin healers and no shaman healers.
We are lucky to have 4 Shamans and 6 Paladins (assuming all are online). For the kill we used 2 Shamans, 3 Paladins, 3 Priests, 2 Druids and 2 Shadows.
In order to keep clothies up, I called for a lay-on-hands whenever a mage/lock got fel raged. This increases their armor by a further 5000 (roughly) and increases the efficiency of ancestral fortitude/inspiration. This made it actually rather easy to keep our mage/lock up.
The paladin will use the following 2 minutes and a mana-pot to regain mana.
In order to keep clothies up, I called for a lay-on-hands whenever a mage/lock got fel raged. This increases their armor by a further 5000 (roughly) and increases the efficiency of ancestral fortitude/inspiration. This made it actually rather easy to keep our mage/lock up.
The paladin will use the following 2 minutes and a mana-pot to regain mana.
Or you could just heal them. Having a paladin blow a talented 40 minute cooldown and all of their mana is... well it's unnecessary and perhaps a little counter productive given how mana intensive the fight can already be. If you leave one healer on the tanks for fel acid / acidic wound and everyone else on the one with fel rage you should have more than enough healing to keep anyone up.
Edit: Obviously it worked for you, and that's fine, but it shouldn't be necessary.
It really isn't that bad. We do it quite comfortable with 8 healers and 2 shadow priests, that shouldn't be too bad for most guilds to get. Improved VE is really good for this fight btw, we have our shadowpriests competing with our healers for most healing done. We put our shadow priests in the bloodboil groups that go twice per round.
How do you manage not having them get aggro?
Our shadowpriests either have to not use VE at all or go superslow on dps.
Even without VE they cant use stuff like mindblasts because of aggro.
Normally we have no issues with threat on any of the encounters.
Or you could just heal them. Having a paladin blow a talented 40 minute cooldown and all of their mana is... well it's unnecessary and perhaps a little counter productive given how mana intensive the fight can already be. If you leave one healer on the tanks for fel acid / acidic wound and everyone else on the one with fel rage you should have more than enough healing to keep anyone up.
Edit: Obviously it worked for you, and that's fine, but it shouldn't be necessary.
Improved Lay on Hands can't help much anyway, I don't think it buffs anything but base armor; it doesn't buff armor from buffs. So that'd get your clothies an extra 500 armor or something. Meaningless.
Improved Lay on Hands can't help much anyway, I don't think it buffs anything but base armor; it doesn't buff armor from buffs. So that'd get your clothies an extra 500 armor or something. Meaningless.
Call it psychological effect then - Once we started doing a lay-on-hands rotation it worked. Maybe it was just because we took in another healer.
@previous poster: You can't just have 1 healer on the tanks. Sometimes they seem to require two. Also, there are 5 people with 2 stacks of BB and another 5 with 1 stack.
We killed him last night for the first time. The night before we only had 8 healers and 1-2 shadowpriests and had the hardest time keeping the raid and the fel rage person alive. Whether it was because no one knew who was healing who or because we simply didn't have enough healing I don't know. Came back last night with 9 healers + 3 spriests and it made a world of difference. Had a 9% enrage wipe the first pull, then a wipe or two to people pulling aggro, then a kill.
Call it psychological effect then - Once we started doing a lay-on-hands rotation it worked. Maybe it was just because we took in another healer.
@previous poster: You can't just have 1 healer on the tanks. Sometimes they seem to require two. Also, there are 5 people with 2 stacks of BB and another 5 with 1 stack.
Unless you are using the bop/ds/iceblock out of bloodboil strategy, it would probably make sense to use a 3-group bloodboil rotation so that no one will ever have a 2-stack of bloodboil ticking on them. That alone might be the reason for your fel rage target being so hard to keep alive (1200/second DoT + Gurtogg + cloth = death).
Unless you are using the bop/ds/iceblock out of bloodboil strategy, it would probably make sense to use a 3-group bloodboil rotation so that no one will ever have a 2-stack of bloodboil ticking on them. That alone might be the reason for your fel rage target being so hard to keep alive (1200/second DoT + Gurtogg + cloth = death).
We used a three-group rotation from the start. Except the odd guy sleeping and thus someone getting two stacks it has been working fine.
We used a three-group rotation from the start. Except the odd guy sleeping and thus someone getting two stacks it has been working fine.
That makes sense, it's just from your previous statement it sounded like going into Fel Rage with an entire group having a double stack of bloodboil and yet another group having a single stack was a typical occurence.
We use 3 tanks and 10 healers. 4-5 paladins in a group (with frost mages) to eat the last 2 bloodboils and then ds/bop/bop/ds on round 1, 2, 4 and 5. Works fairly well, but I think they need to adjust how hard Gurtogg takes apart his fel rage target (when said target is a clothy). The difference between rogue/rogue/paladin/hunter/rogue and mage/mage/priest/priest/priest is night and day. Pretty stupid.
That makes sense, it's just from your previous statement it sounded like going into Fel Rage with an entire group having a double stack of bloodboil and yet another group having a single stack was a typical occurence.
We use 3 tanks and 10 healers. 4-5 paladins in a group (with frost mages) to eat the last 2 bloodboils and then ds/bop/bop/ds on round 1, 2, 4 and 5. Works fairly well, but I think they need to adjust how hard Gurtogg takes apart his fel rage target (when said target is a clothy). The difference between rogue/rogue/paladin/hunter/rogue and mage/mage/priest/priest/priest is night and day. Pretty stupid.
My mistake. I meant two groups with a bloodboil active, one for roughly 10 seconds, the other for 20 seconds.
@previous poster: You can't just have 1 healer on the tanks. Sometimes they seem to require two. Also, there are 5 people with 2 stacks of BB and another 5 with 1 stack.
During fel rage? Yes you can, as that is how we do it; all you have to heal is the acidic wound DoT. Obviously the other healers pay attention to the tanks and help the assigned DoT healer out if necessary (if the debuff stacked too high on a few of them) but generally everyone is healing the fel raged player.
During fel rage? Yes you can, as that is how we do it; all you have to heal is the acidic wound DoT. Obviously the other healers pay attention to the tanks and help the assigned DoT healer out if necessary (if the debuff stacked too high on a few of them) but generally everyone is healing the fel raged player.
We found that very helpful as well. One person assigned to keeping up tanks, and another person assigned to keeping up tanks in case the first person gets Fel Rage.
I was hoping for 9-10 healers and 3 tanks on our next Bloodboil attempts. I was planning to set the healers up like this:
- 4-5 MT healers (who switch between each of the 3 tanks as necessary)
- These 4-5 MT healers immediately switch and spam the Fel Rage tank at the beginning of phase 2
- 2 OT healers who spam the 2 offtanks throughout phase 1.
- These 2 healers keep healing all 3 tanks through acidic wounds as ph2 starts
- 2 bloodboil healers + 1 backup bloodboil healer who also heals acid geyser on melee.
- These 3 healers continue to heal the 2 active bloodboil groups when ph2 starts
Given a 9-10 healer setup, is this the general setup others have found the most success with? It seems to me the tricky part is the 4-5 mt healers must be extremely fast to switch to the fel rage tank and spam their hearts out (while that player healthpots/healthstones initially while the heals are channeled). After those initial heals get landed the fel rage tanks survivability comes down to a bit of luck with what damage they take and whether the boss stacks his haste debuff fast.
We use 9-10 healers and 3 tanks as well, and we always put 3 healers on BB groups (2 resto shamans and a CoH priest), I myself am running Lifebloom on all tanks and the other healers (mostly paladins) focus on the MTs/OTs. When phase 2 starts, all MT/OT healers switch to the Fel-Raged person, while I keep the tanks ups (dot is still ticking). The BB healers keep healing BB people till the debuffs run out and then help healing the Fel-Raged person (by this time Evasion and similar survivability abilities will probably be gone as well, so extra healing is welcome).
We used 9-10 healers and 3 tanks as well, and we always put 3 healers on BB groups (2 resto shamans and a CoH priest), I myself am running Lifebloom on all tanks and the other healers (mostly paladins) focus on the MTs/OTs. When phase 2 starts, all MT/OT healers switch to the Fel-Raged person, while I keep the tanks ups (dot is still ticking). The BB healers keep healing BB people till the debuffs run out and then help healing the Fel-Raged person (by this time Evasion and similar survivability abilities will probably be gone as well, so extra healing is welcome).
Thanks for your insight. I plan to set the groups up like this (I know other people have posted their setup, but heres mine for 9 healers. I name healers as
- Shaman (Bloodboil healer 3, but in a all-healer group so they all can benefit from totem regen)
- MT healer 1
- MT healer 2
- MT healer 3
- OT healer 2 (secondary ot healer, heals up fel acid breath and helps the primary druid ot healer if acidic wound stacks high. otherwise he will just heal the mt)
Group 5 = tank group
- Tank 1
- Tank 2
- Tank 3
- MT healer 4 (shaman preferably for windfury)
- OT healer 1 (primary OT healer: resto druid keeps full hots on all tanks)
--------------------------
My liking for this setup is mainly these reasons:
- the coh priest/druid are part of their bloodboil groups and therefore can Poh/Tranquility and both have access to the spriests mana regen to help.
- the bloodboil shaman healer is able to restore mana with his totems to 5 healers at once
- none of the mt/ot healers are part of the bloodboil rotation and therefore never have to move, they can concentrate solely on healing.
- the 3 tanks get access to a devotion aura and windfury totem , but lose the warlock imp in the process.
Does this setup seem solid or can someone find any holes that I missed?
I would rearrange the groups to provide more healers with shadow priest support. Move Warlocks and Hunters out of the shadow priest groups, put some healers in.
Provide the main tanks with windfury totem and rather use a resto druid and a paladin in the main tank group than a warlock , because the main tank should never come close to death in this fight and more mitigation or healing received just makes the healer's life easier.
I would do it the following way:
Grp 1
Resto Shaman (assigned to do raid healing on AOE and heal MT if nothing to do)
Resto Druid (assigned to keep lifebloom on all tanks plus fel rage target all the time)
Holy Paladin (MT heal, switching to Fel Rage target immediatly)
Prot Warrior
Prot Warrior
Grp 2
Shadow Priest
Holy Priest (healing his group)
3x healers (including resto druid for Group 3, so he does not have to care about himself and can stand still to spam regrowth when his group gets the bloodboil dot)
Grp 3
Shadow Priest
4x DD caster (ele schaman, moonkin, mages, destruction warlock), if you use more healers, put them here too.
Grp 4
5x Melee
Grp 5
Hunters, Warlocks, Feral Druid or another Warrior (3rd tank if you are using one, we mostly did it with two), remaining healer. Assign someone from group 1 to rotate through bloodboils for him.
If you use two druids, one should be able to roll lifebloom on the tanks and outheal the dot with some heals thrown in from other healers, the other one can easily keep a bloodboil group up through two bloodboils and still throw hots on the main tank.
Last edited by Kallisti : 10/31/07 at 11:28 AM.
For my dreams I hold my life
For wishes I behold my nights
A truth at the end of time - Losing faith makes a crime.
Grp 1
Resto Shaman (assigned to do raid healing on AOE and heal MT if nothing to do) Resto Druid (assigned to keep lifebloom on all tanks plus fel rage target all the time)
Holy Paladin (MT heal, switching to Fel Rage target immediatly)
Prot Warrior
Prot Warrior
The more I think about it the more this makes sense - ill do this instead.This way the second offtank healer might not even be required if the druid hots correctly and can focus on the raid - effectively freeing up a healer.
The last couple of weeks we had a very hard time killing gurtogg (and by the way, not killing him this week).
Our guild due to many players unable to raid is often limited to 8 healers, and among them 2 holy priest for group healing and one restau shaman for raid healing.
Besides of this, we only had 1 shadow priest during this period.
This raid group looks really suboptimal, and sadly it may happen again.
Do you think it is doable ? And what should we do in order to improve the healing (except the obvious "add a healer") ?
The main change we plan to do is to put the melee group in the BB rotation and leave a full heal group outside of BB rotation. Thanks to this change we would be able to stabilize the heal during the combat.
Any other ideas we could try if confronted to the same problem ?
We managed to get him with 8 healer and only one shadow to a unsatisfying 1% wipe, and oneshotted him the other day with three shadows and 9 healer.
Get your shadow(s) a tranquil air totem, especially the ones running two times.
And it can really depend on which healer you are using, the more shaman you have, the easier it can be (intelligent chainheals + manatide + heroism during felrage + tranquil air for your shadow(s) ).
We use a resto druid, holding 3 stacks of lifebloom on the three tanks all the time, but it's no where near enough to heal them through 10-20 dots. We use our three paladin's bop as often als possibile, but can't avoid higher stacks at all. Have one (+lifebloom) assigned healer to each tank, healing them on high stacks during fel rage is what is needed for us. 2 shaman for the bloodboil, all other pumping as much as possible. Priest might work, to. But we prefer them to heal the felraged one with greater heal, pom and renew.
Another important point, maybe not mentioned before (i just skipped some uninteresting looking pages):
Felrage phase, but noone get's it. Bossmod says, Member A has it, but he won't grow up and our tanks getting punished.
Solution: This member is to close to the wall, it's what happend often to our early kills (and we managed it anyway some times). So tell your last bloodboil grp no to stroke with the wall and it should be fine.
In order to improve your healing, you will need very very strictly instructions (assets) for your healer to avoid overheal as much as possible. And with the lack of gear and experience you will need an awesome amount of consumeables (really chainjugging, timing cooldowns as good as possible). If you have, you should really try to abuse the paladin/frostmage combo to save a lot of healer's mana.
I dislike using the melee grp for running, they are our best dps in this fight and it will lower their dps rapidly. Let only 1-2 healer run per bloodboil group and everything should be fine.
I wonder a bit if it's that good of an idea to stack so many healers into G2, unless their group is entirely stationary and the other 2 groups move around them. Even then Geyser would break that and the fel raged person would have less healers than ideally should your healers have been more spread out. Is dps group stacking really that important here?
Uhm, being in the same group does not mean standing together, so the geyser is no issue since there can still be enough space between all members of the group. I do not really understand the context between being in one group and not spreading out enough. Prayer of healing range is not that small.
Since there is enough time to move back before the Fel Rage phase (20 seconds.. it's 2-3 seconds of moving), it is absolutely no problem for the healers to be there on time for fel rage. Well, the holy priest has to heal the group, sure, but he has to do that anyway.
Anyway, we oneshot him this week again and never had problems on the encounter, so I will keep this group setup.
For my dreams I hold my life
For wishes I behold my nights
A truth at the end of time - Losing faith makes a crime.
How do you manage not having them get aggro?
Our shadowpriests either have to not use VE at all or go superslow on dps.
Even without VE they cant use stuff like mindblasts because of aggro.
Don't apply VE until just before Fel Rage Phase. Let it fall off for the next phase. Rinse/repeat. Could also have them hold back a little until Fel Rage, then go nuts.
I wonder a bit if it's that good of an idea to stack so many healers into G2, unless their group is entirely stationary and the other 2 groups move around them. Even then Geyser would break that and the fel raged person would have less healers than ideally should your healers have been more spread out. Is dps group stacking really that important here?
We run with G2 just MT healers + shadow priest as well.. works out extremely well considering they only time they ever have to move is during a geyser. This allows them to focus on keeping tight heals up on whoever needs it. We have no issues keeping clothies up anymore since we've moved to this strategy. Rogues will lose a bit of DPS from having to run back and forth but that is preferable to having someone get gibbed because you are stressing your healers to much. Throw the extra melee in whatever group you have just taking 1 BB per each phase.
We use 4 direct healers on the MT, they run in for bloodboil. Most of them in one group actually. You have 8 seconds to move in to catch your bloodboil, at least, it really isn't that hard to take 3 steps between a heal and not everyone has to run at the same time. I think people are making grabbing the bloodboil as an MT healer sound overly complicated and dangerous, which it in fact is not. We've never had a MT die due to lack of healing in the normal phase, only once or twice during fel rage due to enormous stacks of acidic wound.
Last night we killed Bloodboiol for the fifth time, and was by far the cleanest kill thus far.
7 healers (8 if you count the prot pally in healing gear)
1 prot warrior and 2 feral druids
2 shadow priest
1 Resto druid keeping full hots on the 3 MT's.
Prot pally in healing gear healing up the fel geyser targets as well as assisting the tree druid healing the tanks if they had to many stacks of the debuff during phase 2.
2 CoH priest and 1 resto shaman (with 2 shadow priest in the group) healing the 3 bloodboil groups.
All the other healers on the MT(s)
Kill went very smooth with this setup, by far our cleanest yet. We have always run with 9-10 healers before but going with 7 and a prot pally to toss spot heals with proper use of the 2 shadow priest just made healing seem trivial compared to past weeks.
Hope this helps some of those guilds that can't field 9-10 healers.
*even had a resto shaman die half way through the fight to a 12k hit a split second AFTER his fel rage buff wore off... GG bugs I guess*
10/30/07, 5:22 AM
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