Bunnyz, respect intended here, but I just doubt it, at least not often. I mean sure, he hits big. Very big. But there is evidence in the thread that he doesn't crit. And quite frankly, there isn't evidence that the fel rage target can die without having a chance to use his/her abilities and / or for at least some heals to land. I have mentioned this before, but it again bears repeating, I swap to my priest for this fight. Once he picks a fel rage target I start spamming a macro (unless I am CoH-ing Bloodboil 1 or 2 that day) that Gheal 7's the fel rage target. I don't have to think, I don't have to find them, I don't have to be smart, I don't have to be good at WoW. I just have to spam a button.
I guess it is possible that the fel rage target dies in the first 2.5 seconds before the big heals can heal. It can't be happening all that often. And it certainly doesn't happen as any kind of matter of course.
Now, we run with usually 3 non-tank druids, a shaman, a rogue other than me, 2 hunters and 3 paladins. So we have about 10 chances in 22 of getting a fairly easy Fel Rage target. But so does almost every raid. The notion that the 1/2 of the time the target is somewhat challenging that the mindless macro spam will fail on anything more than a rare basis and that this will then >>also<< cause a wipe because there is no tank without cooldowns -- and that we're talking about a guild with Illidan on full farm status, i.e. the tier 6 guild we've used in the example -- well, I don't buy it.
I mean, could they wipe? Of course they could. Any fight in Black Temple has a sufficiently twitchy window of screwup in it that you could wipe (altho it'd be harm to imagine that on Shade of Akama short of epic stupidity). But there can't be a lot of Illidan farming guilds that have people regularly dying to Fel Rage or regularly screwing up Bloodboil positioning. It's just not hard to stop either from happening and not very believable that people screwing up those things are surviving Mother Shaz (the tether) or killing Illidan (things like Dark Barrage).
I'm going to stop making this point over and over, but no I don't believe this fight is hard. I believe Reliquary is much twitchier and more likely to cause trouble. Gurtogg has such an easy enrage timer for guilds that have Tier 6 gear you can easily stack healing
Even with tier 5 gear this fight is all about managing the bloodboil and then ensuring that there are enough healers healing the fel rage target quickly enough. The enrage timer has never been an issue it just prevents guilds healer stacking too much.
The key is (and it's been said before) to realise that there needs to be at absolute most 3 people who can do even the smallest amount of raid healing in the fel rage phase. This number can easily be reduced to 2 assuming both those healers are fairly strong and understand the mechanics of the fight. A third healer can fel rage heal unless there are serious bloodboil/fel acid issues or if a raid healer gets fel raged. Assuming 9 healers (why wouldn't you take 8-9?) you can have 7 people healing 1 target.
Having said that my raid has in the past had some serious issues where I'd get off 1 or even 2 holy light's before anything else would land on the fel rage target. In these situations if the target was at all squishy it usually meant death.
Really though the only targets that you'll have consistent issues healing are priests and mages.
I'm going to stop making this point over and over, but no I don't believe this fight is hard. I believe Reliquary is much twitchier and more likely to cause trouble. Gurtogg has such an easy enrage timer for guilds that have Tier 6 gear you can easily stack healing
I'm not saying it's a hard fight (actually I said "nothing is hard"). I said "if having problem = wipe" then I think even well equipped guild may have problem there. To me having problem is different than wiping, but the original poster asked if there is any t6 guild having problem since he saw guilds that cleared BT wiped on BB so I guessed he thought "wipe = having problem". And from my experience in my guild, RoS / Illidan / Mother is much easier than BB after you have killed them (have been 1 shotting them, but we still wipe at BB sometimes /shrug)
Andrast, we take a 10th healer some of the time. We don't need to, but if we do it, there is yet another healer. Enrage is still nothing resembling an issue. The part where you land 1-2 holy lights on the targets before anything else lands means no one else is macro spamming, obviously. Or they are awfully awfully slow at it. That's not meant as criticism so much as observations. Macro spam = fel rage win if you don't have fast healers.
Bunnyz, we wipe on RoS and not on Bloodboil. I'm sure every guild has its bugaboo fight -- altho it's hard to imagine it's Shaz for anyone . I find Bloodboil trivial, you find RoS trivial. What I've tried to contribute to the last 3 pages here is how to trivialize Blodoboil. If those recommendations are followed, I suspect any guild that's gotten to him will find the fight easy. And the more gear, the easier. Maybe I'm wrong, so I'll leave my comments from here to answering questions.
Our guild has just started on Bloodboil this week. We had 5 attempt on him and we went in with 9 healers. On the third attempt we got him to 23% and fifth to 19%. Still haven't downed him yet.
There're two biggest issues, tank rotation and felrage tanking. There really isn't a reliable way of swtiching between tanks, especially with the threat meter not working as it should. Are you guys having this problem with threat meters?
When time comes for felrage and he targets a clothie, they take insane amounts of damage, even with so many healers it seems rather sketchy keeping a clothie up tanking felrage.
There're two biggest issues, tank rotation and felrage tanking. There really isn't a reliable way of swtiching between tanks, especially with the threat meter not working as it should. Are you guys having this problem with threat meters?
When time comes for felrage and he targets a clothie, they take insane amounts of damage, even with so many healers it seems rather sketchy keeping a clothie up tanking felrage.
Quick switches are key here. At 5 debuffs, have the current tank stop all threat generation, and have the other tanks lay into him. When the debuffs tick off, they should call it, and you should switch. Good tank communication, and having anyone call out when the tanks switch is key. Also, DPS should probably just wait out the first minute so the tanks can really get aggro. The fight isn't a DPS race, so DPS shouldn't be an issue at all.
This helps with the second issue, because 1 druid rolling lifeblooms on the tanks should be able to keep the tanks up during the fel rage, while the other healers dump everything they have on the rage'd person.
Our guild has downed Blood Boil twice now and he is, in my opinion, one of the most luck based fights we have seen yet. Attempt after attempt he would Fel Enrage mages and just basically 2 or 3 shot them before the healers had ANY way to do anything. We eventually just switched up our raid to complete the encounter.
Before the healers had ANY way to do anything is pretty much another way of saying your healers didn't switch fast enough. He has to run to the mage in the first place (which is more than enough time to have a big heal 90% complete) and he pauses momentarily while changing phases. I don't have enough fingers and toes to count how many times I've done bloodboil but I can tell you there are still times where a clothie will die to absolutely absurd damage (hopefully at least half way through), however this is by no means a wipe. Especially if threat is back on a warrior this is the ideal time to shield wall (spam trinkets if your a druid).
As far as managing tank threat goes (or managing debuff stacks) bops 1 second before fel rage expires can go a long way (I'm sure this has been mentioned in the past however many pages).
Obviously this encounter gets amazingly better/easier with gear (10 weeks in with full t6)
Yeah, to -- again -- state the obvious. DBM/BigWigs report that a Fel Rage is incoming. There's a countdown. A huge number of healers are available to you at this point. There's the group 3 Bloodboil healer (#1) and probably 4 non-tank primary healers (#2-5) assuming you run a configuration with 9 healers where 2 of them are absolutely worried about tanks first and 4 of them are worried about the rest of the raid first (come fel rage). So there's 5 healers who have the countdown bar and he's what they are doing...
(1) Watching the fel rage bar
(2) As the fel rage bar ticks to zero, they are moving their mouse over a target of target healing macro
(3) Gurtogg >>targets<< the Fel Rage target... He then needs to run over to them.. This doesn't not happen instantly
(4) 5 healers are now casting on the target
(5) The 2 main tank healers are topping off the tanks with damage ticks and evaluating their ability to contribute to fel rage healing
(6) The mage is spamming ice armor
After 1-shotting Bloodboil 4 straight weeks, we happened to have a retarded week last week in this fight and managed to wipe several times as dps pulled aggro and dragged him across the room and other miscellaneous things went wrong.
It had nothing to do with healing the fel rage, which is ridiculously simple and has nothing to do with luck. We almost never have a mage die to fel rage. Luck would be if you couldn't heal mages through it. Skill / execution is when your healers don't switch to macro spamming fast enough and your fel rage target fails to pop evasion / deterrence / bear form / earth shield / ice armor / greater heal.
The stupid things we had go on reminded me how entirely execution-based this fight is. There is really almost no luck at all involved. The fel rage mechanic has been used in TBC before in the High Astromancer Solarian fight (arcane missiles), the Rage Winterchill fight (icebolt), and will be seen by you again soon on Illidan (Dark Barrage). The boss mobs targets one random raid member and attempts to blow them up. There are ways to configure Grid to show you who this person is, I'm told, but I find this brain dead easy.
If you have enough healers doing this with their big heal replacing Greater Heal(Rank 7) and spamming that button during Fel Rage while the Fel Rage tries to survive (n.b. this is completely unnecessary to spam for rogues and hunters while they are dodging everything but don't be stupid and let them die) people are not dying during Fel Rage. And, yes, they have to start it the instant Bloodboil switches targets so they have to be paying attention.
for tank switching we found it easier to go by time rather than debuff stacks, the advantage being more predictable tanks switches but lower threat ceiling and an overall longer fight (9mins for first kill).
If you go by time, then one tank builds threat for 10-15s and stops. Other tanks easily catch up and take over, with the help of some manual misdirects for tanks suffering from knockback de-aggro. With each tank spending about 20seconds tanking BB, that's only 10 debuffs worse case scenarios and it drops off by the time it's the tanks turn to tank again.
More control less threat but I'm sure we can push it much higher next time.
I used to use the macro to heal through FR, but I found it much better to have my Grid set up to show me who has the debuff and then heal them from there.
By setting Fel Rage (and other urgent debuffs like Dark Barrage etc) as a debuff in Grid and setting it to turn the person's frame bright red, I can see Fel Rage a good second or so before most people even realise it's up. The red frame will come up and I can start healing them before he actually runs over there and starts beating them - it's very fast. The key though is that it will show up on Grid (and other raid frames, I believe) BEFORE he actually targets the person. So their frame will turn red, then a second or so later he will actually turn to look at them. This is the point where the assist macro will start work - but by this time I've already seen the red frame in Grid and I've started healing. It's a pure knee-jerk reaction - RED IS BAD.
Adding similar debuffs into Grid means that I can have a rejuv on someone often before they even realise they have the debuff. Another good one is Deadly Poison on Illidari Council - it is not my job to heal this person but as soon as their frame turns pink I toss a rejuv, keep rolling on the tanks, then swiftmend the poisoned person when the rogue follows through, and then back to the tanks again. It's incredibly fast and so valuable on a lot of fights.
Some people may think it's bizarre to want to target the FR person "manually", and that it would be slower than spamming an assist macro - but I honestly find it's faster, easier and less clumsy for me to react to a red square popping up in my face rather than watching a ToTT for changes and then blindly spamming. I'm already watching Grid and not my target windows for the most part anyway.
Using the macro, as Mideci said, is "brain dead easy".. but personally I found it clumsy, and I don't like the feeling that I am just button mashing. I'm not knocking anyone who prefers the macro, this is just how I feel personally. I prefer to react to events and heal targets myself, rather than button mashing and relying on assist macros for the game to choose the correct target for me.
Yeah, Keeva, you make a fair point. A lot of our healers I know configured Grid to catch Dark Barrage and suddenly people stopped dying there too. My point about the macro -- or Grid -- is that using a tool, whichever it is, eliminates any chance of failing to deliver heals to the affected person. Mage shmage. It just doesn't matter. The mechanic of the fight isn't to kill someone inside of the window of a greater heal / holy light. But it definitely can kill people who don't get healed immediately once they are targeted.
Either way, the people who are losing all their fel rages aren't unlucky, they are just failing. Just like they probably failed on Solarian and will fail on Illidan. Until they figure out how not to fail.
You want a luck element? Wait till your warlock tank gets a shadow demon on Illidan. That's bad luck.
The other thing about configuration / other means of observation is that they ensure that the heal starts casting as soon as the target switch is going to happen. If you're spamming the macro, your worst case scenario becomes close to 5 seconds with a 2.5 second cast spell before you actually land one on the target. (Start casting right before the switch, don't cancel that cast when it's time to cast the next one.)
Even just watching his target manually and being ready for the switch when Fel Rage approached was enough for me to keep people alive the last time I healed the fight. Setting up fancy stuff in Grid is awesome, too, though, and I would definitely do it if I were more of a full-time healer.
Every healer should be able to see undispellable debuffs on her or his raid frames. If you can't see these, you're going to have trouble with everything from Morogrim's watery graves to Illidan's barrage to Brutallus' burn. When the fel rage phase begins, look to see who gained the fel rage debuff - the debuff appears about a second before Gurtogg changes his target (he sort of waits for the both himself and the fel rage target to grow). Target the person with the fel rage debuff and spam max rank heals.
End.
(Assist healing off Gurtogg - as long as you're smart about it and start your heal as soon as his target changes, and don't continue casting an unnecessary heal on the no-longer-tanking tank, works fine too.)
We have killed Bloodboil many times in the past, but tonight we were unable to kill him. Often times, a warlock or shadow priest or rogue would end up pulling aggro while on Omen it showed them as #5 - #7 in threat.
Also, I was tanking and it seemed that many times I was unable to pull aggro off one of the other tanks (according to omen) until I reached almost 30% more threat than them!
Has anyone else had this problem? Is this because of resisted insignificances?
Sounds like incompatible omen in the raid more than anything. "Often times" someone pulling aggro is not resisted insignificances, which are very rare. "Many times" being unable to take aggro as a tank until you were 30% above someone else also sends like omen not reporting correctly due to incompatible variants.
Well whatever you do that gets the person healed is fine. But unless you are running a click-casting mod, the whole purpose of using Grid with the debuff setting or the macro is you don't need to set a target or move anywhere else on your screen than where you already are. Essentially the macro is going to spam your heal on the correct target. Grid is going to show you the correct target (once configured to see fel rage) and let you click it immediately. If you have a focus on BB and you target of target there and click cast >>that frame<<, you are doing the exact same thing we are talking about with a different mechanic.
If you are clicking said target frame and then having to commence healing with a separate button press, you are adding delay time, which is why the other strategies would then be better. The extra quarter or half second won't be your friend at the start. Anyway, if your folks are living, your strategy obviously works and you don't need help here, I'm just being detailed to help others than might read this later.
Ok, My raid is having much diffuclty with this fight. We have gotten him down to 9% and can't get him past that. I think we use 8 healers.
The problem we are having is that while we are healing the fel rage the tanks get to low and when FR is over he one shots our tanks. How many healer do we need on each tank and FR. We have one shaman healer ! I think we need more chain heals on the BB in order to keep up with the damage. Any help would be great!! Tips Strats, whatever....
My guild generally runs 8/9 healers (depending on availability) for Gurtogg. Generally what we find works best is everyone is assigned to heal the fel rage target EXCEPT 1 who's priority is topping up tanks.
RE: luck element, Bloodboil with only 2 tanks is pretty luck dependant too
When fel rage hits there are two bloodboils up and at least one tank taking acidic wound damage. We run anywhere from 8-10 healers and have the druids keep lifeblooms on the DoTed tanks while stacking HoTs on the fel rage victim while two other bloodboil healers continue to heal their groups. This means anywhere from 5-7 healers + 1 druid's worth of HoTs immediately switches to the fel rage victim, and 2 more healers join them before the end (as the bloodboil DoTs expire).
Shamans, priests, and druids can all heal a bloodboil group fine (priests are probably best at it). Two lifebloom stacks is plenty to keep tanks topped up as long as they're not getting more than 10-12 stacks maximum.
My guild generally runs 8/9 healers (depending on availability) for Gurtogg. Generally what we find works best is everyone is assigned to heal the fel rage target EXCEPT 1 who's priority is topping up tanks.
RE: luck element, Bloodboil with only 2 tanks is pretty luck dependant too
I'll agree two tanking it isn't really sustainable unless your lucky but when you reach a certain gear level you can pretty much just power through it. Our kills take around 4 minutes and we have used two tanks before, as long as healers know that the tanks are going to probably take a lot more damage it's all good.
"Oh he's a sad little man? He's thrown a kettle over a pub, what have you done?"
No doubt it is possible, just that it's too inconsistent for my liking; my guild has 2 tanked him a number of times in the past.
Today we had to make do with 2 tanks (another was AFK), and after 5 wipes of horrible luck with ejects/disorients (disorient MT, eject OT, smash DPS) we had one of our DPS warriors respec for that fight only; after which we proceeded to one shot him. I just can't see outgearing the encounter being able to help much when it comes to the complete luck factor of ejects/disorients and even the fel acid stacks (horrible luck gave both our tanks about a 20 stack each during one attempt).
Ok, My raid is having much diffuclty with this fight. We have gotten him down to 9% and can't get him past that. I think we use 8 healers.
The problem we are having is that while we are healing the fel rage the tanks get to low and when FR is over he one shots our tanks. How many healer do we need on each tank and FR. We have one shaman healer ! I think we need more chain heals on the BB in order to keep up with the damage. Any help would be great!! Tips Strats, whatever....
thanks,
holyhero
Just curious... Have you read the other 695 posts in this thread at all? You're not even sure how many healers you use in your raid.... There are about 500 posts discussing the merits of various healer-count strategies up to using 10 healers on this encounter and you'd like us to figure it out for you?
I don't mean to come off as rude, but honestly, you need to do your homework and provide a lot more information before this inquiry is going to be useful.
Sounds like incompatible omen in the raid more than anything. "Often times" someone pulling aggro is not resisted insignificances, which are very rare. "Many times" being unable to take aggro as a tank until you were 30% above someone else also sends like omen not reporting correctly due to incompatible variants.
We had a shadowpriest showing up as being close to overtaking our three tanks throughout our first kill (last night), so she throttled her DPS significantly. However, she paid attention during Fel Rage and is positive she both a) had the insignificance debuff and b) was building threat throughout Fel Rage on Omen anyway.
I suppose it is safer to have folks trust Omen when it says they are too high on threat than to have them continue DPS and hope they aren't really that high, but was frustrating for her.
05/06/08, 7:14 AM
. I find Bloodboil trivial, you find RoS trivial. What I've tried to contribute to the last 3 pages here is how to trivialize Blodoboil. If those recommendations are followed, I suspect any guild that's gotten to him will find the fight easy. And the more gear, the easier. Maybe I'm wrong, so I'll leave my comments from here to answering questions.
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