You must not understand what Intevene does...

It will absorb the next attack upon who the Warrior Intervenes.

At this point in the fight the warrior will have (atleast half the time) a negative armor debuff that also bleeds for some fairly sizeable damage, if your running 7 healers for tanks and shadowpriests for boil (during fel rage) then your warrior will probably not be topped off and/or get hit for more than he can take without dying to his dot the next second, because of this we didnt actually see if the mechanic 'works' but one hit out of his dual wielding onslaught isn't going to stop random burst deaths I would imagine :/ on the other hand you might be onto something; another thought has anyone tried intervene with a BoP on? I guess its an attack and not spell so it wont work but

Intervene works very well, I've taken many many MSes from clothes. Overall it can seem small when you intervene 10k dmg out of the 150k that needs to be healed, but that hit can be the difference between heals landing.

Anyway though, we ran 2 shadowpriest and 9 heals, I'm sure with another spriest we could drop a healer too.

Complaining because this fight is random is lol though. It's random in the same way Firemaw is random when your tank with cap FR took 5 buffets in a row. Does it make it harder? Sure, but if you're wiping to anything you believe is "random" in this fight you just aren't doing something right.

I totally agree. There are random elements to this fight that are potentially lethal, but I think if you're executing this fight well, even if you have really shitty luck, it'll take you 5-6 attempts at most.

See, I'm gonna disagree there. I saw Firemaw go worse than you said, and it still wasn't a big deal. On the other hand, when he attacks a cloth target with no way to mitigate damage, then he procs his haste buff every singe hit, it is very very very hard to keep up.

Past that, there is nothing at all you can do to 33k damage in 1 second. Honestly, I don't see how anyone can argue otherwise. Intervene? Yea, we used it, you have to heal your target for 30 seconds, perhaps if he dies right at the end of that, it's not a big deal and you can have 25 SSes on your raid (my bad, 15 is now intended by Blizzard). Some of us feel this is actually not intended, and refuse to do so. But back to the topic, how do you honestly time an intervene? It's impossible to predict the 2 crushings in a row, perhaps the arcing smash is predictable, I don't even know to be honest, but he can do an insane amount of burst damage. And again, the stack on that haste debuff is huge. If there is a way to force the target, then I'm definitely wrong. We spent a full night of progress on him trying to find any way to force Fel Rage on someone, we found none (we did find 1 way to exploit it, for what it's worth, but opted not to exploit). After that, we accepted we just had to heal through it, bumped our healers up by 1, and killed him on the 2nd or 3rd try the next day. It's still somewhat random, and even on the kill, people died here and there.

As for hunter vs paladin...those 30% dodges are also guaranteed to not be crushings, while paladins get crushed much more often. In addition to the time it gains you to catch back up, when everyone has 16k+ armor, the crushing/avoidance seems more noticeable to me.

Also, we have not yet attempted him this week, so we have not killed the buffed version. Our plan is to go play with him tonight. We had to spend the beginning of the week to attune the rest of our guild so we don't have to rely on the exact same people, then we did some progress in Hyjal, and dropped Gorefiend last night. We'll see how bad the changes made him today.

I'm just saying you're wrong, and you should revisit your tactics. If I told you the tactic I would be spoiling...
Plus I'm not allowed leak tactics anyway.

Next time I won't say you're wrong, and just let you bang your head into the wall then...



We didn't have 3 shadow priests, we had 2 shadow priests. Are Shadow Priest healers? No (Well you know) - The discussion was about bringing healers. We also never raid with 3 shadow priests, we only have 2 active, Melghor + Muqq.

I won't tell you how we use them, since, like I wrote above, theres no point in telling everything, I just wanted to say that he can be done with a normal raid setup = not bringing a million healers.

Well like I said, of course there isn't much you can do vs crush MS crush crush on a mage or warlock or something, but my point was simply that any "random" factors can't wipe you if you play properly. Any fel rage deaths (which should barely ever happen) can easily be countered and recovered from.

Nobody in this thread is denying that luck is a factor in this fight. They are simply arguing that luck isn't the ONLY factor in this fight. The way you say it makes it sound absolutely impossible to keep Mages up. We have had a FR'ed Mage die on some of the attempts, but for most of those attempts we were still new and getting used to the mechanic. We HAVE been successful with Mages, Warlocks and Priests on other attempts.

I agree that they will occasionally get one rounded, and yes, there is very little you can do about 33k damage in 1 second on a MS'ed caster, but that doesn't occur often enough to worry about. If your raid group has mastered this encounter, the one-rounded clothie will be the only possible cause of wipe, and even then, it's still not a definite wipe (Shield Wall). If you do wipe, just take 5 minutes to rez and kill him on the next attempt.

This encounter will be nerfed, but as a few others have said, the luck element isn't as devastating as you make it seem.

Well yea, that is obviously fine. 15 soulstones from out of the raid is not. And the problem with someone dying during Fel Rage, is more that he starts running around doing insane dmg 1 shotting people, not so much that the 1 person died.

Also, I full well realize that you can wipe, get back up, not have awful luck, and beat him. We did beat the old version (which as far as luck is concerned, is the exact same fight as far as I understand the changes).

I am glad to see the discussions here about the "random" factors in the fight, that was the original intention when I made this thread after all.

I think everyone can agree that there are many variables in this fight which can alter the outcome of an attempt, however it is possible to control or deal with them. I do like the concept of the fight but I still think it will be tweaked in the near future!

killed him this weekend, too

used 8 healers:
3 palas
2 shaman
2 holypriests
1 restro druide

2 shaman+restro druid -> zerg healing
rest -> tank(s)

Yeah, we killed him with about the same setup as FTH. 8 healers, 3 were assigned to raid + dot on our two tanks and the rest kept the fel rage target up. We had quite some issues with the fight though and I don't think it's tactic wise.
Figuring out his breath and how to spread bloodboil over your raid isn't exactly hard. The fel rage target is however from all we've seen 100% random. His hit range on cloth varies from 4k to 15k (hit, not crush, not crit). Crushings are usually about 5k and crits aren't that bad either. Still, he can do 15k hits. And he's got a trash/windfury attack along with the MS debuff is fairly unheable. I have combat logs from a mage that just goes form full to 0 in 3-4s while there's 5-6 heals for 2500 each landing. That's max rank holy light/healing wave/greater heal under MS debuff. Heals for 2500 don't make up 15k hits fast enough.

@Pixels4Hire: You know, if a guy from DnT or Risen etc would be posting this, I'd try and find a better tactic. A nihilum guy posting such stuff really doesn't tickle me at all. Nihi stands for brute force. You brute forced alar without the correct meteor tactic. You brute forced Solarian without knowing how to focus his missiles on a tank pre 2.1.
The difference between normal guilds and nihi is just that you can easily do such stuff. Your guys generally click the right button. They don't need to be told to use max rank heals again and again until it works. They don't swtich off the fel rage target cause 'it seemed that he was dong fine' to do some raid healing only to lose the fel raged guy to a series of hits.

I'd happily bet you money that you handle fel rage just like we all do. You heal through on whoever he picks and don't do anything tricky at all.
Gurtogg is a brute force fight. Nihi is without a doubt the best guild in the world to easily execute such fights without any trouble (You're the best guild in general too obviously, but I think such fights suit you even more.).
But please don't post 'there's something you can do better' like that. I'm 100% sure you don't do anything else then just healing through it as well. There's nothing you need to figure out really. Who gets the boils is obvoius after a few tries and the rest has all been used in other encounters before.

Why would he start running around doing insane dmg 1 shotting people?

He will one shot people who have more threat than a tank but then it's their fault obviously.

It is possible to resist Insignificance in p2. DPS resists, tank doesn't, that person is going to die if they outthreat the tank and the fel raged person dies.

That's great that you can kill Bloodboil with only 8 healers. With perfect gear, players and luck I'm sure he can be killed with 4 healers. However, the problem as I see it is rather that the optimal number of healers, to maximize the chance to kill him, is more than 8 or even 9. And this is just an example of a pretty hard BT boss that is very susceptible to raid stacking. The advantage that rogues have over casters on Shahraz is over the top too as an other example.

Thank you for not spoiling this information. Figuring out how to use our Shadow priests has been a vital part of formulating our Gurtogg strategy. We're currently leaning towards "put them with the hunters."

After seeing (and feeling, ouch) this encounter for the last hour or so of our raid our observations were that bloodboil targets the 5 people furthest away, if this is how it works it is indeed very easy to control it and spread it out over the raid instead of getting 2.4k dps ticks on the same people.

Yep that is something which everyone rotates to control the fight, atleast I would assume so. (Check our video to see the rotations if you are interested: http://www.warcraftmovies.com/movieview.php?id=41622)

It is more the fact of who gets Fel Rage and how many debuffs the tanks get which are the more annoying parts of the encounter.

Killed with 7 healers, 2 holy priests, 3 paladins, 2 resto shamans. Fel rages were on 2x paladin, 2x warlock, 1x rogue.

Downed him with 7 healers and 2 spriests tonight. Ignored healing on 1 bloodboil group with 4 locks chaining DL. We went from 70% to dead though, so repeatability could be an issue.

edit: Hello Dartan

I think some healers probably just let certain people die from Fel Rage on purpose, because they know they can get back up. Since I never have a shadow priest for the fight, and even chaining super mana pots with an alchy stone isn't enough mana, I sometimes even stop spamming max rank HL if I know the person dying wont screw us over.

But yeah, he can definitely burst hard.. but we've also recovered from someone going down to 1% hp during a fel rage and then healing them back up before the next hit.

Also, the dot at the end of the rage ticking is cured by uh, healing them even after it ends!

One thing you can do, is if your Fel Rage'd person is a healer (non paladin), have them heal the raid.. with the boost to healing, they can usually top the entire raid off pretty easily, while everyone else focuses on keeping them alive

Demi: 4 warlocks DL'ing as a bloodboil soak group is a pretty cool way to get around using another healer, nice!


and Failure, uncontrollable randomness is Al'ar 1.0 deciding to melee the person he charges, and that person being cloth and getting 1-hit