Patterns...

So in 2.1 Blizzard finally responded to one side of the issue Praetorian described as "The Consumable Dilemma" in a post I'm sure you all recall from this very forum. Paraphrasing (badly, I'm sure) Praetorian's thesis from that thread, the increase in "power" (damage potential + survivability + sustainability) a raid could gain through the use of consumables was out of whack relative to the increase in power that raid could expect to gain by advancing a tier in terms of gear. Through the 2.1 changes to elixirs and flasks, the potential increase in raid "power" through the use of consumables was lowered significantly. However, the elixir/flask nerf mainly reduced the damage potential and survivability aspects of consumable power; the sustainability aspect went largely unaffected as the dev's neglected to restrict the practice known, perhaps bitterly, as "pot-chugging".

As one memorable graphic in Praetorian's thread showed, the amount of mana regen potential (in itemization terms) a max-rank mana potion used on every cooldown provides is dramatic. Currently, a Super Mana pot returns an average of 2400 mana and can be used every 2 minutes. Thus, chain-potting provides an average of 100 mp5. In terms of item budget value, 100 mp5 equates to (to pick just one illustrative example) 500 AP. A Flask of Mighty Restoration provides 25 mp5, so chain-potting is, on average, 4 times as powerful as flasking up.

Clearly, one portion of the raiding population (admittedly a large portion), the mana-users, were left sort of high and dry by the consumables changes. This isn't a novel insight, and the lack of changes to the potion mechanics was bemoaned plenty when the 2.1 notes were announced (on EJ namely in a thread called "2.1 Alchemy" if I recall). Though the cost of chain-potting was diminished through the introduction of new zone-specific consumables and a change to mana potion mats, the fact that the practice remains an assumed condition of encounter balancing is somewhat distressing.

The combined power of chain-potting and Vampiric Touch has made mana regen a more or less broken mechanic. The item budget cost of mana regen stats does not reflect the disparity in power between Spirit or mp5 on gear (on the one hand) and chain-potting and VT (on the other). What's more, the effectiveness of several classes (most glaringly hunters and mages) is completely dependent on chain-potting and VT because item/spec options for regen or efficiency are woefully underpowered.

I've got to think overhauling the mana regen system is on Blizzard's agenda. Arenas and the 2.1 consumables changes have made balance tighter than ever, but the success the devs have had in those areas have emphasized how bad the regen model currently is. Personally, I would suggest a nerf to VT, an increase in the potion cooldown to 3 mins and the elimination of the mp5 stat in favor of a reworked Spirit model (which may or may not include changes to the 5-second rule).

Do you guys see a regen overhaul as inevtiable? Is there still an issue with chain-potting now that it's not so expensive? How should the mana regen model work to make gear upgrades with Spirit/mp5/whatever more meaningful?

 

◊ Praetorian

Their solution was clearly to just make pots cheaper and more plentiful (see the TK-specific and SSC-specific pots). It's still a clumsy mechanic, but Blizzard seems to have made up their mind not to revise the system from the ground up.

I've gone through 40 super mana pots in a single day post-2.1. I barely even question the expense at this point, though that's clearly less than an ideal state of affairs.

 

Zwink

Mana potting in TK is no problem. I have a stockpile of Nethergon just from running TK. Serpentshrine isn't that bad with all the Coilfang Armaments that drop. However, there's no alternative to Super Mana Potions in Black Temple or Hyjal. No free mana pots in Black Temple or Hyjal is what I see as the current problem. Blizzard either can continue to make mana potions free to raiders or overhaul the mechanic altogether. If things don't change more and more guilds will be running with an absolute minimum of 2 or 3 Shadow Priests.

http://vodka-guild.com

 

Teez

I frankly don't see any viable way of changing the mana regen model right now - neither by changing the mechanic, nor by changing the gear, nor by changing the consumables.

The reason for me saying that, is that whatever you do - it would completely unbalance one portion of the game. Nerfing consumables would require an increase in regen from gear/regen mechanics, barring another complete overhaul of encounters or game mechanics pertaining to non-mana using classes aswell. Changing the mechanics of it at all (allowing for higher base regen to accomodate for nerfed consumables) would throw PVP off completely. Arena matches tend to play out in two ways - huge burst damage via assist train on targets, or attrition fights in which mana efficiency and longevity count. That last alternative is why it just wouldn't be an option.

Nerfing consumables without accounting for the loss in mp5 would result in having to completely redesign encounters around being much shorter (since burst potential would be unchanged, but longevity would be out the window), or having to change the way in which Warrior/Rogue DPS works to allow for a much more mana efficient DPS approach on the caster side. It would also require a huge change to how damage affect players - and this is only part of it all, but I'm sure you're getting where I'm coming from when I say that the likelihood of this happening in the near future is ... slim. I doubt we're going to see another content patch of the dimensions of 2.1 anytime soon - even if 2.2 weren't too far off, I'd go as far as saying that this might just be a little beyond the scope of just a content patch, but more material for a new expansion seeing as how fundamental the changes would be in terms of affecting game mechanics and current content.

 

tedv

I seem to remember the alchemy thread discussing this topic, but there was no conclusive best direction to go. Step 1 seems to be reducing the mana returned from mana potions, and step 2 is modifying spirit and m/5 to be more potent. People generally agreed on that, but the balance system is so complicated and mana is so close to the heart of everything that 2/3rds of the players do that one mistake could throw everything out of whack. So how much to nerf potions and buff spirit (or even in what ways) is still a point of debate.

Do you increase the cooldown of potions, reduce their mana gain, or both? What about giving rider effects to potions ala potion of destruction but seriously reducing their effect? (Eg. "Restores 800 mana and increases your +damage by 50 for 15 seconds")

Should classes only need 3 spirit to get one mana per heartbeat tick instead of 4 or 5? Or should everyone have a base "meditation regen percent" higher than the current 0%? Should it differ between different classes?

I personally find the whole area of fixing mana regeneration fascinating because it's so intricate, but that also means Blizzard wants to avoid it. It's a huge mine field, and they have other things to balance tweak that would have a bigger impact on overall player happiness than mana regeneration. Non-holy paladins, moonkin druids, non-shadow priest talents, and the annoyance of hunter shot cycles come to mind. These are lower risk, higher reward areas of design to explore, so we'll probably see them fixed first.

 

Hevanus

From a Hunter perspective, replacing MP5 with Spirit would not work without extensive changes somewhere in the mechanics because Hunters never get outside of the 5-second rule during combat post-2.0.

It does seem silly that some of the most expensive item stats (e.g., MP5) pale in comparison to the effects of pots/VT/etc.

If encounters are currently tuned for "chain-chugging" then why not just slash the cost of mana regen stats on gear and increase the stat amount significantly? Worst case is it brings mana closer to Rogues' energy mechanic (since they'd probably want to cut mana pool size to compensate as well).

Edit: Lots of replies in the time it took me to write mine Yes, it would certainly change the dynamic, and no, Blizzard probably won't want to deal with it at this point. Start farming pots.

 

◊ Kalman

Seriously, there just need to be generic raid-zone mana pots, buyable for a cheap price in silver. Between daily quest gold generation and the general prevalence of gold in the expac, 50s for a raid-zone-only manapot would fix the issue well enough to leave alone. It wouldn't be ideal, but it would work.

http://mmorchive.net

The WoW forums, explained:

 

• Snowy

If you do daily quests, the gold cost for super mana pots at the moment is pretty fair. At least on MG, you can buy a stack for anywhere from 8-10g, and lets not forget the 2 freebies you get from the Skettis prisoner rescue.

 

cokesplash

Ain't that the truth.

 

• CheshireCat

Since their solution has obviously been to make mana pots the new Rumsey Rum, there are a few more steps that could make life easier:

First, stack them to 20. Elixirs got this at the same time it became less necessary to carry tons of them around. It became *more* crucial to carry mana pots, but they still stack to 5.

Similarly, do something to trim the proliferation of different kinds of mana pots that do the same thing but don't stack.

If the game is balanced around the assumption that I'm popping one of these every 2 minutes, there should at least be some concessions to bag space and ease of management.

 

PsiVen

I don't think chain-potting is nearly as much of an issue with the removal of the elixirs+flask expectation. I personally have about 30 stacks of pots on an alt, and while I wouldn't have that huge buildup if I was healing full time, obtaining mana pots is completely trivial for any DPS class. As for healing priests/druids/shamans, the introduction of daily quests means that I make 80g + 2 pots a day minimum in about 45 minutes of farming that I don't really have to be awake for.

[E] Wow, I waited 5 minutes to hit 'post' and half a dozen got in ahead. Sorry if that was redundant.

 

Ninjakick

Speaking as a Holy Priest I think mana regen mechanics are pretty much spot on. I cannot speak for other classes so I will speak for myself. It rewards the player that takes the time to choose their gear and stat allocations properly, often regearing for certain fights. By efficiently choosing your heals, watching for procs, maximizing spirit regen time and cancel casting you can last quite a long time and output some great healing. This is what I did raiding at 60.

Now a days I've given up on a lot of the finesse it takes to be a mana conscious healer. I see the palis blasting off chain heals all over the map and it looks fun. And with a Primal Mooncloth Bag stuffed top to bottom with Super Mana Potions there isnt much to stop me from smacking heals down all over the raid willy-nilly.

At level 60 I would have cried to see a max rank Gheal hit a topped off tank. Now I'll queue up a Gheal... see my target getting flashed back up... and lazily let it continue on through since mana isn't really much of an issue. "Oh look. that last Greater Heal critted for 7500, and all of it overhealing, at least he got inspiration."

I don't rely on mana pots at all if I don't want to. Sure there are a lot of fights where even a very watchful healer would need to pot. But for the insanely low price and common drop rate why not have some more fun and get some bang for your buck. With kitty druids replacing many of the resto druids from level 60 raiding there is also a huge supply of unwanted Innervates floating around too which just add to the "Spam em all!" mentality I randomly adopt on some nights.

Not that I'm proud of it but I've had kara runs where my overhealing is at 40%... not cause I'm stupid... cause I'm lazy and rich.

 

• Melador

If only I could solo the prisoner rescue -- the few times I've tried it I've been far more likely to eat repair costs than gain 12g and a couple pots.

As a druid, I've found that the increased prevalence of spirit on gear while still retaining some mp5 is really making my innervates extremely powerful (when I use it on myself). Along with the increased efficiency of tree form, and the fact that it's now truly raidworthy with the lifebloom change, my mana pot usage has actually decreased significantly.

 

• goss

Not to derail, but you only have to kill 4 mobs (two pairs) - and the NPC will tank one for you while you kill the other.

 

Floria

It really isn't that hard! Fly up, kill the one mob that may or may not be there, open the cage, kill the 2-pull he spawns, walk down the ramp, and maybe kill the 2 guards that will have respawned. I've done the entire thing with my healing gear because I was bombing eggs and didn't even pay attention to what gear I had on until I entered combat.

Sure, fighting mobs as a healer becomes an annoying fight of attrition, but you can HoT yourself and keep casting spells on them, and Innervate if you run low on mana!

 

Swanchr

I can only speak from a mage perspective but I only find it necessary to chain pot on Gruul and on Nightbane. (my guild is working on Mag)

A key thing for mages is to manage your cool downs and use all your gems (I go through 3-4 gems on Gruul) as soon as you can.

It is almost like a spell rotation (i.e. 800 mana gem, pot, evo, 1000 mana gem, pot etc).

In some ways I think it is up to the player. You can cut back on your dps a bit by using a less mana intensive spell rotation, or wanding a bit, and not pot as much. This may not work on all encounters, especially new content, but as things move to farm status this becomes possible.

 

Teenee

Indeed.

Often we only have 1 shadowpriest that the healers often get prio on, and doing Magtheridon is an ordeal if I want to perform well in that case. Firstly, JoW simply has to be applied, or I can just as well give up and go /afk.

Often, I just don't have the option to chug a healing potion, simply because of cooldowns. Healthstone is often also not available, because I need to use that cooldown for dark runes/gems. As a mage, we often have some of the smallest HP pools in the raid, and this lessened survability really bothers me. Having bandage as the only option @ 30% at Magtheridon doesn't sit well with me.

 

Nezralix

I don't know if it's broken, but there is a bit of a scaling issue here. Spells really don't cost that much more than they did pre-TBC (Rank 12 Renew is 450 mana while Rank 10 is 410), but everyone has something like 75% more mana regen on their gear (on average). In other words, mana regen is comparatively more powerful than it was pre-TBC, and presumably this will continue in further expansions.

EDIT: I would say the only reason people don't notice this quite as much is that, in general, people are blowing through mana faster due to the disproportionate increase in incoming damage (presumably a result of the stamina change). However, a side effect is that people without healing gear heal that much more poorly.

 

• Shifft

Honestly, for most fights if you only have one shadow priest they should be given to the mages, reason being that healers can sustain themselves with chain potting, while mages can use their potion cooldowns on destruction potions, but only if they have a good shadow priest.

 

Atalantia

How about making mage gems more like healthstones? With little difference though.

Make the reagent 1-5 arcane powder.
Make a crystal formation spawn after a 10second cast.
Crystal will have 10-15 charges.
*Mana gems for everybody will trigger the potion cooldown.

Optional:
Simliar to trinkets, the crystal could have a 5-10 min cooldown itself, but it will trigger the 2 min potion cooldown.


*Or make it on the same cooldown for everybody besides mages, and mages will keep everything as is.


Its not perfect, but it will give mages some nice raid utility and would be easier than a complete overhaul.

ps: make hunter aspects auras too

 

Larisroth

I'm not sure it's the last broken mechanic, I can thing of several others relating to feral druids alone that really need to be fixed

Forcing people to chain chug potions is pretty lame really, whether it's protection potions, armour potions for tanks, or mana potions on healers (and ranged dps). Yes changing the mechanic (by say decreasing their effectivenesss or increasing the cooldown) would require rebalancing, but it's hardly likely to be worse than that required for balancing of the general alchemy nerf. One option would be to give all mana using classes a low throughput option much like when warlocks go oom.

The funny thing about the gear is no-one really wants regen on their gear, both forms of it are pretty ineffective for the budget cost. So perhaps a slight buffing of the regen rates might work. The alchemy stone presents a bit of a problem as well, 40% extra seems a little bit too much of a nice boost.

The feral druid is a different beast altogether.

 

Northerner

Respectfully, I can only say no but thanks for the thought. Mana gems already really are not that great (you'd be better off with the freely dropping raid-only potions) and if I got a "mana-gem well" before a "water well", the carnage would be legendary. Besides, I don't really want to carry even more reagents around.

I agree that chain-chugging mana potions is a regrettable mechanic but it's one I can live with by now I guess, although of course I'd like to have a free gem/HS or potion timer someday. It's more a shame that they don't stack in 20s than anything at this point.

 

Gauss

I'm pretty sure I'm the only dps in my guild who favors regen, and it shows by my gear choice. Sometimes I wonder if I am wrong in my decision to do things such as use a lot of spirit gear and mage armor, but I am pretty competetive in dps and rarely have to pot.

I recall spirit being nerfed in effectiveness quite a bit between beta and live, so I doubt it will get fixed sadly.

Noobing it up on Mal'Ganis since '06

 

Atalantia